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Thread: [Discussion] Do The Thargoids Want War?

  1. #31
    Originally Posted by TheLawful View Post (Source)
    Leaves the question why the Thargoids are | seem to be exclusively going after AEGIS?

    O7,
    Because AEGIS are responsible for the AX weapons (etc). Before the AX gear, we pretty couldn't harm a Thargoid ship so they happily ignored us. Now we have the capacity to kill/injure them and have become a threat - all down the the AEGIS research.

    At least, that's my theory

  2. #32
    The other mystery left: Why do the Thargoids scoop up our escap pods?

    Maybe they don't want to destroy us, becouse they want to feed upon humans. Maybe they are working on plans, how to "grow" humans for theire master-chefs?

    Also that could be easyly why they don't destroy stations and just damage them, so they can grab some tasty humans and the best thing is, there are always coming more. Yummy.

  3. #33
    Originally Posted by CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost View Post (Source)
    If humans are really good at fighting, then humans are not harmless for the Klaxians.
    Ah no, but again, there's no reason the Klaxians can't entirely bypass us if they wanted to, space is big, our reach is small, and we have no way to hyperdict even our own FTL systems, let alone aliens. There's no reason at all for them to engage us especially if we're good at fighting.

    We know Thargoid FTL systems can jump long distances, we know they don't need to use supercruise speeds to travel in-system, we know they can shadow ships in Witchspace - so we've already established that the Klaxians don't need to "cross" the bubble in any way we'd be able to see.

    Again - that brings us back to the point that the Oresrians stated plan makes no sense, given what we know (not suspect, but know) of Thargoid capabilities.

    The only way that the Oresrian plan makes sense is if they help us to intercept Thargoid FTL jumps in the same way they can ours - and the easiest way to do that would be to just give us the technology so we can help defeat the Klaxians, even if the Oresrians run off and leave us fighting, their plan is still infinitely better served by making us more capable of fighting the Klaxians in the first place.

    That means, really, that the Oresrians were lying and their plan isn't to use as a meat shield, which again circles us round to the main question: The Thargoids seem to want War, specifically, not to destroy us, but to provoke us into a fight - why?

  4. #34
    Originally Posted by Arkadi View Post (Source)
    The other mystery left: Why do the Thargoids scoop up our escap pods?

    Maybe they don't want to destroy us, becouse they want to feed upon humans. Maybe they are working on plans, how to "grow" humans for theire master-chefs?

    Also that could be easyly why they don't destroy stations and just damage them, so they can grab some tasty humans and the best thing is, there are always coming more. Yummy.
    I think that's covered - there's no reason whatsoever the Thargoids would eat humans. They are based on entirely different biochemistry to us - We don't drink Ammonia or find it remotely appetising, why would Thargoids want to eat humans? Even on Earth, most things aren't edible by humans without causing sickness or death, and we evolved here! So why would an alien species with a totally different biochemistry be able to eat humans?

    Also - even if we assume that (somehow) their biochemistry is compatible with ours - why would they need or want to eat humans? They're a fully self-sustaining space-faring species that's managed to get this far without eating humans, there's no reason they would need to eat humans as a supplement to the food chain.

    If we're delicacies, then why not just clone humans or human meat from a simple DNA sample in huge farms aboard hive-ships? Why bother risking the resources necessary to attack a ship and scoop the one or two pods that survive the attack? Makes no sense.

    They're not using us as slaves - there's no point - they can make bio-engineered starships, if they need "slaves" they'd just make bio-robots to do whatever tasks they need which would be simpler, easier and something they almost certainly already do (Scavengers are one example of this), plus we can't live in their atmosphere so for each human slave they'd need a space suit, which would require a whole industry to manufacture and maintain. Again, makes no sense.

    They don't need to study us - they started doing that 400 years ago, and what can they possibly learn from a few escape-pod humans that they can't learn by hacking our data nets or just watching our 1000+ years of media broadcasts? We know far, far, far more about us than they can gather from a few frightened captives, so they could at the very least just trade for the data, there's plenty of unscrupulous businesses that would trade anything for a chance to learn the secrets of Thargoid Hyperdiction, the Thargoids would know that too. Again, this isn't a first contact situation - Thargoids have been interacting with humans for up to 400 years at this point.

    If they need our "brains" for tactical reasons, or our knowledge, then the easiest way to get that is by trade and dialogue, they have stuff we want, we'd absolutely trade tactical and war knowledge for any type of advanced technology, especially if it helps us defeat an even worse threat coming this way - Thargoids would know that. Or, they'd just replicate our brains in a computer (even Humanity in the 34th century has the ability to make human-grade intelligent machines), they'd just plug in the sum total of human knowledge and immediately gain all the advantages of human experience without having to deal with fragile meatbag hostages trying to escape all the time and dying a lot.

    The only explanation that make sense is: They're doing to be deliberately antagonistic.

  5. #35
    Originally Posted by TheLawful View Post (Source)
    Leaves the question why the Thargoids are | seem to be exclusively going after AEGIS?

    O7,
    I reckon that's a good question, and the simple answer is probably that they've identified Aegis as the biggest threat to quickly defeating them, and since they want a War, not a defeat, they're attempting to shut/slow down Aegis.

    Originally Posted by dreadspectre View Post (Source)
    Because AEGIS are responsible for the AX weapons (etc). Before the AX gear, we pretty couldn't harm a Thargoid ship so they happily ignored us. Now we have the capacity to kill/injure them and have become a threat - all down the the AEGIS research.

    At least, that's my theory
    ^ This

    Most people don't like considering that INRA were right to attempt a total genocide of the Thargoids, but realistically the Thargoids are the ones with all the power (better tech, better able to pursue peace), and they have decided to lure us into a trap (sending the probes to us and inviting us to the Pleiades) and then attacking us. We know that in the last war humanity was essentially barely able to fight off the Thargoids, their ships were superior, and although we could kill them, it was extremely hard. We developed new weapons and they didn't work, the only one that did was a bio-virus - they will have by now cured themselves and that trick won't work a second time.

    As I said before, I think they weren't anticipating that we (Aegis) would figure out a way to use Guardian items as weapons, that's shifted the balance in our favour, and so, they need to try to shut Aegis down in order to prevent them doing what INRA did and developing a war-winning weapon again.

    All this really points towards the fact that the Thargoids want a fight, a war, they're not trying to outright kill us (at least, yet) and they don't want us to be able to outright kill them. So they're antagonistic in all the right ways, refuse to talk, and do things like take live humans and attack stations to keep us in the Pleiades.

    Think about it - if the Thargoids wanted us out of the Pleiades, they'd just destroy all the stations. We'd have no infrastructure, and it would be a lot harder to fight them and they could just keep hyperdicting any ships going that way until we give up or run out of ships, they have that capability. They know this, they're not dumb. Instead of doing that, they damaged many stations enough that we'd want/need to fix them, and in so doing actually encouraged more humans to come into the Pleiades. Again, Thargoids aren't dumb, they're doing this for a reason, and the only reason that makes sense is to get us to fight, but not win, just fight. The question remains - why?

  6. #36
    Originally Posted by Louis Calvert View Post (Source)
    The only explanation that make sense [for picking up escape pods] is: They're doing to be deliberately antagonistic.
    Or, they have a motivation to save living creatures despite the conflict - some moral equivalent of the Geneva Convention?

    They pick up escape pods, but they don't try to attack human ships to obtain escape pods carried inside.

    Originally Posted by Louis Calvert View Post (Source)
    We know Thargoid FTL systems can jump long distances,
    Do we? Or, at least, do we know they can do this with anything like the speed of human ships? I can certainly believe their drives are faster and longer-ranged than pre-FSD human drives.

    Originally Posted by Louis Calvert View Post (Source)
    but realistically the Thargoids are the ones with all the power (better tech, better able to pursue peace),
    "Better tech" is not really supported by the in-game evidence.

    - they've not demonstrated in-game that their FTL is superior on anything other than an in-system scale: inter-system it appears considerably inferior to the FSD in terms of both speed and endurance
    - they've got some neat tricks in combat, but their weapons are in many respects less dangerous to a human ship than the loadout an ATR police ship carries [1] and humans already have counters to most of their tricks to the point where their smaller interceptors can be destroyed by a single human ship a fraction of its size

    Different tech, sure. Better in some areas - meta-alloy production, for instance, though it's unclear exactly what humans are missing for not being able to do that - less good in others.

    [1] Or an outpost's weapons platform, if you want to stick to stuff we definitely have now rather than in a few weeks

  7. #37
    Originally Posted by TheLawful View Post (Source)
    Leaves the question why the Thargoids are | seem to be exclusively going after AEGIS?

    O7,
    Because Aegis = Inra, and Inra tried to destroy the Thargoids with the Mycoid virus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy9WLi11598&t=60s The Thargoids aren't the enemy. Aegis is, attacks on Human ships are 'false flags', nobody has ever seen them attack first, and only attack a ship when interdicted when carrying UA or other Thargoid material. Seeing them salvage occu[ied escape pods, maybe no different that us taking Thargoid Bio-matter. Begs the question, why is this question being asked now, when people have been indiscriminately attacking them for months? The Scouts are however a different matter in the 3.0 beta, they do tend to attack first, so maybe we are seeing the two factions of Thargoids,

  8. #38
    You have some very good points, but I still have some other ideas regarding escape-pod scooping behaviour of Thargoids, mostly inspired from ancient B-movies. I need to get that sorted...

    Originally Posted by Louis Calvert View Post (Source)
    Also - even if we assume that (somehow) their biochemistry is compatible with ours - why would they need or want to eat humans? They're a fully self-sustaining space-faring species that's managed to get this far without eating humans, there's no reason they would need to eat humans as a supplement to the food chain. [...]
    Agreed, it seems not very reasonable that Thargoids would need any part of the human body for nutrition. I'll check that off.
    Another theory why Thargs might be interested in scooping escape pods:
    Since Thargoids use bio-tech or even breed some kind of sentient space-faring organism, it seems quite obvious that they scan for biological matter - thats theire bio-tech sensors and probes and our living pilots. It seems they are generally uninterested in metals or other dead matter of any kind. So maybe they just use biological matter to build and repair parts of theire ships.
    In short, maybe they don't eat humans, but maybe they use human matter to build and reapir theire bio-tech stuff???

    Originally Posted by Louis Calvert View Post (Source)
    If they need our "brains" for tactical reasons, or our knowledge, then the easiest way to get that is by trade and dialogue, they have stuff we want, we'd absolutely trade tactical and war knowledge for any type of advanced technology, especially if it helps us defeat an even worse threat coming this way - Thargoids would know that. Or, they'd just replicate our brains in a computer (even Humanity in the 34th century has the ability to make human-grade intelligent machines), they'd just plug in the sum total of human knowledge and immediately gain all the advantages of human experience without having to deal with fragile meatbag hostages trying to escape all the time and dying a lot.
    I am not sure if it is a sound argument that the Thargoids could just talk or trade with us instead of just brain-scanning some human samples to get information directly without any complicated, unprecise and unsecure methods like "talking" ...

    Originally Posted by Louis Calvert View Post (Source)
    The only explanation that make sense is: They're doing to be deliberately antagonistic.
    It looks like that. Maybe another theory can go with that:
    What if the Thargoids are developing a "body snatcher" technology, replacing humans with thargoid-controlled clones? Maybe they want to play a human muppet show, for reasons unknown, or are testing human-bilogy based thargoid pilots. Maybe our biology has some advantages to theire current bio-engineering, maybe reflexes, tactil precession, something like that?

    Originally Posted by Louis Calvert View Post (Source)
    [...] As I said before, I think they weren't anticipating that we (Aegis) would figure out a way to use Guardian items as weapons, that's shifted the balance in our favour, and so, they need to try to shut Aegis down in order to prevent them doing what INRA did and developing a war-winning weapon again.
    All this really points towards the fact that the Thargoids want a fight, a war, they're not trying to outright kill us (at least, yet) and they don't want us to be able to outright kill them. So they're antagonistic in all the right ways, refuse to talk, and do things like take live humans and attack stations to keep us in the Pleiades.
    Think about it - if the Thargoids wanted us out of the Pleiades, they'd just destroy all the stations. We'd have no infrastructure, and it would be a lot harder to fight them and they could just keep hyperdicting any ships going that way until we give up or run out of ships, they have that capability. They know this, they're not dumb. Instead of doing that, they damaged many stations enough that we'd want/need to fix them, and in so doing actually encouraged more humans to come into the Pleiades. Again, Thargoids aren't dumb, they're doing this for a reason, and the only reason that makes sense is to get us to fight, but not win, just fight. The question remains - why?
    Quite obvious your argumentation leads to the theory that the Thargoids want to have us in place to fight a "proxy war" for them - maybe against another Thargoid tribe.
    This is a good theory. But then again, why don't they just talk with us? I'll try to answer this: becouse maybe they believe just manipulating us into this will be the safer way to reach theire goals, becouse humanity is stupid enough to fall for theire littel ploy.
    We have no proof for any of those theories yet. But none of those theories really are favorable for humanity. Either we are just some kind of entertainment or bio-ressource to them or the Thargoids want us as cannonfodder for some other threat we are still unaware of. I mean if they just wanted to train and prepare us against that threat they really just could have warned us and co-operat with us. But they don't.

  9. #39
    The only explanation that make sense is: They're doing to be deliberately antagonistic.
    I disagree, at least that this is the only sensible conclusion.

    In beta...

    ...I listened to the destruction of Thargoid Scouts. There's a distinct sound when they die. This isn't surprising, as...

    ... Thargoid interceptors make a distinct sound when they are destroyed. You know what else makes a distinct sound when they're destroyed?

    Thargoid Sensors, Probes and Links. Initially, you might think "So what? It's an alien item, presuming a non-human composition it'll make a different noise to human stuff when it explodes"... until you consider that the other "cargos" i.e Technology Samples, Biological matter, tissue samples, hearts, resin, don't make the same noise. They just make an everyday "explosion" noise. Again, maybe "So what?" after all, the latter items are fairly inert compared to sensors, probes and links. But links were put into the game at the same time as those more inert items, so there was a conscious choice was made to make the other items sound different. Maybe just design consistency, maybe not. Either way, I don't think the similarity of "death noise" between thargoid vessels and the sensors, probes and links are coincidence. I think they're just as alive as the ships are.

    Now, FD were quite meticulous about what the Thargoids scoop. I'm not gonna "white knight" for them here, they stuff up some design choices here and there, but with this they've been *very* detailed. Thargoids don't just scoop cargo pods. They scoop *any* humanoid cargo. Now, if this wasn't significant or they'd been clumsy about it, they would've done it for most standard cargoes (slaves, imperial slaves), and maybe the rares (Master Chefs), as well as the escape pods since they're front-and-center to our interactions. But it doesn't stop there... Thargoids also scoop Hostages and Political Prisoners (and other humanoid powerplay cargo), which only occur in missions or Powerplay. The chances of a typical player having mission-specific hostages or some powerplay cargo and going to an NHSS is a massive outlier. But FD remembered to include them. That's a massive outlier.

    But that's all meta-analysis. Let's go with the idea that they're scooping humanoid cargo (escape pods) to antagonise us. That's a *massive* leap to make in terms of Thargoid understanding of us... it implies that they understand the emotional and moral values associated with targetting helpless individuals. It's the human equivalent of essentially war crimes. To do it out of curiosity is understandable, but for deliberate antagonisation extrapolates across a huge set of assumptions of their understanding. It's also disproven, in my mind, by the fact they also scoop slaves and the like.

    Lets face it, slaves are chaff. While some humans get some feel-good out of liberating slaves, for any human dealing in them, a tonne of slaves and a tonne of palladium are no different, and the loss of either is of no different concern. But Thargoids don't scoop palladium, because, let's assume, they realise it won't antagonise us. So on the one hand, we see the Thargoids demonstrating an advanced knowledge of human motives and morals by scooping escape pods to "antagonise" us, meanwhile they "attempt" to antagonise us by collecting humans who ostensibly are a commodity to at least the entire Empire and many independent systems.... essentially demonstrating a crude and failing knowledge of our motives and morals. Losing slaves is bad, but the nations of humanity won't lose much sleep over it. It just doesn't fit.

    But.... Thargoids scoop all humans, and they scoop Sensors, Probes and Links. They don't scoop tissue, hearts, tech samples and the like. This is significant. The only difference in treatment is they'll call in help to scoop lots of probes/sensors/links, they won't call in help for humans. But they have enough value of both types of "cargo" to want to scoop them both, so they hold a roughly equivalent value to the Thargoids.

    Now also, turn this on it's head. Let's go a little crazy and call Sensors, Probes and Links "Thargoid Escape Pods". Braben has said the Thargoids are meant to be "truly alien". There may not even be a "Thargoid Escape Pod" analog. But lets call it that, since they're equally valued by the Thargoids. And if you get even more crazy... what's a human if not just a living, walking Sensor, able to absorb information from it's surroundings, analyse it, and transmit assessments (via voice, written word). We (humans) scoop "Thargoid Escape Pods". We also scoop "Human Sensors". The Thargoids might wonder why we do that too?

    For the record, I'm not suggesting (immediately) that Probes/Sensors/Links are living Thargoids or an escape pod analog, but as a truly alien species, there's a comparable relationship between probes, sensors and links, and Thargoid vessels. I don't think Thargoids are being deliberately antagonistic by scooping it. They just value Humanoid cargo as much as Probes, Sensors and Links. That's significant.

  10. #40
    Originally Posted by Arkadi View Post (Source)
    Since Thargoids use bio-tech or even breed some kind of sentient space-faring organism, it seems quite obvious that they scan for biological matter - thats theire bio-tech sensors and probes and our living pilots. It seems they are generally uninterested in metals or other dead matter of any kind. So maybe they just use biological matter to build and repair parts of theire ships.
    In short, maybe they don't eat humans, but maybe they use human matter to build and reapir theire bio-tech stuff???
    I really like that idea, I'd not considered that. It does explain why they'd bother scooping up people.

    However - the counter that immediately came to mind is that it would surely be a lot easier to land on any of the Ammonia or ELW's that support life and scoop up all the biomatter you need. There can't be that much in an escape pod.

    Or, they are an advanced space-faring civilisation, if they need raw biomatter to fuel the ship-building process, they would already have farms, or ways to grow it, they wouldn't rely on taking a few random escape pods, that would be a dangerously unstable source of your necessary raw materials.

    Originally Posted by Arkadi View Post (Source)
    I am not sure if it is a sound argument that the Thargoids could just talk or trade with us instead of just brain-scanning some human samples to get information directly without any complicated, unprecise and unsecure methods like "talking" ...
    We don't know they can brain scan - we do know they can talk to us and we know we share enough common ground to meet and talk. We also know Thargoids have entered in trade talks before, and that they can consider the idea of trade. We learned about Soontil because we spied on them talking about it amongst themselves when they were considering asking us if we'd found it. They entered into a trade-deal in OOTD for advanced piloting techniques in exchange for a little light genocide and scientific technology.

    Originally Posted by Arkadi View Post (Source)
    What if the Thargoids are developing a "body snatcher" technology, replacing humans with thargoid-controlled clones? Maybe they want to play a human muppet show, for reasons unknown, or are testing human-bilogy based thargoid pilots. Maybe our biology has some advantages to theire current bio-engineering, maybe reflexes, tactil precession, something like that?
    I really like this idea too. It's very cool and reminds me of Asher's Polity sci-fi franchise where insectiod aliens (Prador) brain-cored humans and implanted bio-control "brains" and used them as slaves and soldiers. I love the concept, and from OOTD we know they do value human space-pilots for our flexibility of thinking and ability to evolve to tactics changes faster.

    I can't help but go back to the "Why not just pay us" if they need us as pilots. They will know we really, really love money and cool gadgets. If they don't want to have to deal with individuals and set up a CG like everyone else () then they could just pay one of the megacorporations like Sirius in advanced technology in exchange for thousands of ships and willing pilots.


    Originally Posted by Arkadi View Post (Source)
    Quite obvious your argumentation leads to the theory that the Thargoids want to have us in place to fight a "proxy war" for them - maybe against another Thargoid tribe.
    This is a good theory. But then again, why don't they just talk with us? I'll try to answer this: becouse maybe they believe just manipulating us into this will be the safer way to reach theire goals, becouse humanity is stupid enough to fall for theire littel ploy.
    We have no proof for any of those theories yet. But none of those theories really are favorable for humanity. Either we are just some kind of entertainment or bio-ressource to them or the Thargoids want us as cannonfodder for some other threat we are still unaware of. I mean if they just wanted to train and prepare us against that threat they really just could have warned us and co-operat with us. But they don't.
    Good points. I don't know about the proxy war issue. As I've said before, there's a lot of easier ways to get us to fight the Klaxians, if that's the goal they're going about it in a very awkward way. You're right, the best way would be to just talk to us about it and say "bigger bagger Thargoids are coming, and they will kill you, we want to kill them, but we can't, if you help us defeat them we'll both be safe and both benefit from all the advanced technology and resources we can plunder".

  11. #41
    Originally Posted by Jmanis View Post (Source)

    Now also, turn this on it's head. Let's go a little crazy and call Sensors, Probes and Links "Thargoid Escape Pods". Braben has said the Thargoids are meant to be "truly alien". There may not even be a "Thargoid Escape Pod" analog. But lets call it that, since they're equally valued by the Thargoids. And if you get even more crazy... what's a human if not just a living, walking Sensor, able to absorb information from it's surroundings, analyse it, and transmit assessments (via voice, written word). We (humans) scoop "Thargoid Escape Pods". We also scoop "Human Sensors". The Thargoids might wonder why we do that too?

    For the record, I'm not suggesting (immediately) that Probes/Sensors/Links are living Thargoids or an escape pod analog, but as a truly alien species, there's a comparable relationship between probes, sensors and links, and Thargoid vessels. I don't think Thargoids are being deliberately antagonistic by scooping it. They just value Humanoid cargo as much as Probes, Sensors and Links. That's significant.
    That's a very interesting idea.

    I'll take it and run around with it a bit:
    Thargoids are not a species made up of individuals like humans. They are hive minded. This might result in them not valuing the life of an individual Thargoid - making "Thargoid escape pods" a waste of resources.
    Since they learn by sharing information with the hive, the valuable part of an individual Thargoid could be the experiences and informations that Thargoid gained.
    Gathering those informations would be very important for the hive as it is what advances the hive.

    Apparently Thargoids understand that humans are not a hive minded species and that humans are a individual minded species. They know the concept of "an individual" - but that doesn't mean that they value that aspect or act accordingly if not needed.

    For the Thargoids human escape pods might be the human equivalent of a Thargoid Sensor - a device for storing information. Escape pods not as a method to save an individual, but as a way to save information.

    Capturing humans might be a way for the Thargoids to gather information about humans in a way that can't be done by "talking". Maybe they have methods to extract more than just basic informations (that could be transferred by communication) from a living human brain. Experiences and memories - similar to that Utopian Sim archive thing.
    That would be extremely valuable for the Thargoid hive.

    Escape pods and Thargoid Sensor might be similar valuable for Thargoids as they store the most valuable asset for a hive - a resource to advance abilities of the hive.


    OK, my imagination is currently running wild.

    What if the whole Thargoid species is about collecting information for the hive. Territory, material resources - things that are important for humans - would be unimportant. Conflicts would not be based around territory or material resources or killing many of the opponents - it would be about gathering as much of new information from the opponent.
    Running away wouldn't be about distance, it would be about minimizing the risk of losing information that is not yet part of the hive.

    That would make so much sense and it would be beautiful simple. Thargoids would be really alien.


  12. #42
    Originally Posted by Jmanis View Post (Source)

    But that's all meta-analysis. Let's go with the idea that they're scooping humanoid cargo (escape pods) to antagonise us. That's a *massive* leap to make in terms of Thargoid understanding of us... it implies that they understand the emotional and moral values associated with targetting helpless individuals. It's the human equivalent of essentially war crimes. To do it out of curiosity is understandable, but for deliberate antagonisation extrapolates across a huge set of assumptions of their understanding. It's also disproven, in my mind, by the fact they also scoop slaves and the like.

    Lets face it, slaves are chaff. While some humans get some feel-good out of liberating slaves, for any human dealing in them, a tonne of slaves and a tonne of palladium are no different, and the loss of either is of no different concern. But Thargoids don't scoop palladium, because, let's assume, they realise it won't antagonise us. So on the one hand, we see the Thargoids demonstrating an advanced knowledge of human motives and morals by scooping escape pods to "antagonise" us, meanwhile they "attempt" to antagonise us by collecting humans who ostensibly are a commodity to at least the entire Empire and many independent systems.... essentially demonstrating a crude and failing knowledge of our motives and morals. Losing slaves is bad, but the nations of humanity won't lose much sleep over it. It just doesn't fit.

    For the record, I'm not suggesting (immediately) that Probes/Sensors/Links are living Thargoids or an escape pod analog, but as a truly alien species, there's a comparable relationship between probes, sensors and links, and Thargoid vessels. I don't think Thargoids are being deliberately antagonistic by scooping it. They just value Humanoid cargo as much as Probes, Sensors and Links. That's significant.
    This is a quote from OOTD:


    The thing held Ma in two arms, her feet dangling a metre off the floor. It looked like it wanted to hug her. As if drawing her into a protective embrace, the flat flanges on its ‘forearms’ aligned like shields down her back. But red streams flowed down her body as its claws—fingers?—pierced her shoulders. ‘Da was there too, standing close by, someone’s discarded handgun shaking in his inexpert grip. ‘Da pulled the trigger. He’d never trained and the first one went wide, but he kept trying, pumping out the shots. Where I was frozen inside, I felt the warm surge of triumph as bullet after bullet struck home. He kept firing, even after the clip was empty. Then it turned its repulsive dome towards him. I remember the wave of disbelief: the hatred and the anger; it should be dead. Da shot it—and when you shoot something it dies, everyone knows that. But apparently you can’t kill a Thargoid with a low calibre weapon, even at close range. The slugs ricocheted off—didn’t even mark it. And it looked at him, straight at him, as it reared on its back six legs, ‘arms’ lifting Ma higher like some kind of offering, or trophy. ‘The two front legs unfolded and reached up until the claws touched Ma, under each breast, before moving to meet in the middle. Blood flowed as the claws pushed into her skin and under her ribs. It was still looking at Da as it took a hold of something inside her and pulled. Her ribs cracked open like a gekhan nut. He ran forward then—my da, the farmer—and attacked it with his fists. One of its legs shot out like a lance, skewering him under the chin and lifting him into the air until he hung there, level with Ma. It flicked him away then, and he slid and rolled across the floor until he was stopped by another body.

    ‘When I looked back it was reaching inside her, inside Ma. It looked like it was playing with her, until it took out her heart; I could see it still quivering. Then the alien lowered my ma’s heart to its jaws and spat something. There was a violent fizzing, a hissing as plumes of white vapour erupted. The heart quivered, then stilled as it inflated, before bursting with the dull ‘whump’ of a soft tyre deflating. All the alien held was so much minced meat.


    This (and most of the last 1/4 or so of the novel) illustrates that the Thargoids know a lot about humans, and understand psychology - remember that the scene here is of a random soldier Thargoid raiding a human colony, we have no extra data, so we must assume this is an average member of the species. It knows enough to locate the human heart and then deliberately spits on it in front of the woman's daughter.

    Just this one incident implies that a Thargoid that's not officially seen humanity at this point for around 100 years (this scene is in 3250, so 100 years since the war), knows enough about human physiology, anatomy and psychology to do this.

    I'd say just this one example, which is lore, illustrates that Thargoids are fully versed in humans and well understand what taking our escape pods mean. The slaves is a good point, but maybe they don't realise they are slaves at that point (we only know the difference between slaves and escape pods because of what the cargo manifest says), they just see humans floating in pods and assume they're all valuable to us - which, even Slaves are, especially Imperial ones, giving them to Thargoids would shock any true Imperial to the core.

  13. #43
    Originally Posted by Ian Doncaster View Post (Source)
    Do we? Or, at least, do we know they can do this with anything like the speed of human ships? I can certainly believe their drives are faster and longer-ranged than pre-FSD human drives.
    It's stated in Lore that Thargoids drives are longer-range than ours. However the method of that is unknown, though even if we assume the point-to-point jump range is the same as human ships, so a max of around 50ly, then that's still immense, especially given the ability to jump directly to a location rather than having to jump to a star and supercruise. That also gives them the ability to drop anywhere in deep space too, so even if single-jump-range is limited, they can hop-jump much more efficiently than us (since we need to do it via stars and the path often zig-zags!)


    Originally Posted by Ian Doncaster View Post (Source)
    "Better tech" is not really supported by the in-game evidence.

    - they've not demonstrated in-game that their FTL is superior on anything other than an in-system scale: inter-system it appears considerably inferior to the FSD in terms of both speed and endurance
    - they've got some neat tricks in combat, but their weapons are in many respects less dangerous to a human ship than the loadout an ATR police ship carries [1] and humans already have counters to most of their tricks to the point where their smaller interceptors can be destroyed by a single human ship a fraction of its size

    Different tech, sure. Better in some areas - meta-alloy production, for instance, though it's unclear exactly what humans are missing for not being able to do that - less good in others.
    You're picking up a thowaway phrase and arguing against it, if you read my OP I say:

    5) Technology

    As stated above, it's certain that in some areas Thargoids are more advanced than Humanity, and in other areas they are likely to have at least comparable technology to us.

    The more relevant area for this example though is FTL systems. We are told in Lore that Thargoid FTL is more advanced than any version we have, including FSD. We're also told that FSD is engineered in some way from Thargoid ships left over from the last war. (Source; Premonition, OOTD, EERPG).

    We know from in-game observations that Thargoid FTL system are exceptionally accurate, exhibiting the ability to drop in right next to another ship. It also seems that Thargoid FTL either operates via travelling freely in Witchspace directly, or via a point-to-point travel - since we never see them using higher velocity travel like Supercruise, and we never see them anywhere other than where they seem to want to be. I.e., unlike human systems, they don't seem to need to jump to a star, and then to a specific location in-system, they seem to able to jump directly from where they were to where they want to be, with extreme precision and speed.

    If we assume this precision FTL ability is coupled with at the very least FSD-like ranges as well the apparent ability to use this method to travel point-to-point in system, this essentially means that Thargoid ships are capable of effectively appearing anywhere they want, at any time, within a huge volume of space.

    We also know from in-game experience that Thargoids can manipulate Hyperspace travel to such an extent that they can cause Hyperdictions - without appearing to be present near the target ship (i.e. no Thargoid ship is detectable prior to Hyperdiction). This is a practical demonstration of technology that Humanity does not posses.

    In addition to this, the other significant technology is a wide-field long-range EMP blast, which renders Human technology inoperable for a length of time. While this has recently been neutralised, we're told that this neutralisation system is only effective to protect a small ship, and only when used properly. I.e., it's not a total negation of Thargoid technology, it's a temporary protection against a single blast in limited circumstances.

    We've also seen evidence of a Thargoid "scanning beam" of unknown purpose, but given the context which it's seen in, we can assume that's its a data gathering tool.

  14. #44
    Originally Posted by seko View Post (Source)
    Because Aegis = Inra, and Inra tried to destroy the Thargoids with the Mycoid virus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy9WLi11598&t=60s The Thargoids aren't the enemy. Aegis is, attacks on Human ships are 'false flags', nobody has ever seen them attack first, and only attack a ship when interdicted when carrying UA or other Thargoid material. Seeing them salvage occu[ied escape pods, maybe no different that us taking Thargoid Bio-matter. Begs the question, why is this question being asked now, when people have been indiscriminately attacking them for months? The Scouts are however a different matter in the 3.0 beta, they do tend to attack first, so maybe we are seeing the two factions of Thargoids,
    Hm. False flag or not, but some of the Megaship logs IMHO definitely indicate that 1. they were attacked seemingly unprovoked and 2. by Thargoids. Ok, some of them might have had something on board the Thargoids wanted, but none of the logs indicate the humans attacked first.

    https://canonn.science/codex/megaships/

    Some examples:

    https://canonn.science/codex/alcatra...-ship-jjf-048/
    https://canonn.science/codex/aquariu...anker-alf-895/
    https://canonn.science/codex/demeter...essel-ksl-878/
    https://canonn.science/codex/banner-...-ship-btg-237/
    https://canonn.science/codex/henry-c...o-ship-ar-005/
    https://canonn.science/codex/hogan-c...-ship-ptk-179/
    https://canonn.science/codex/lowell-...essel-hdr-617/
    https://canonn.science/codex/naphtha...anker-ipd-038/
    https://canonn.science/codex/sanchez...essel-zig-097/
    https://canonn.science/codex/thomas-...-ship-dfx-056/

    Ok, the ship logs might have been compromised, and AEGIS or some other shady organization might have found a way to either fake the typical Thargoid damage or even take control over an Interceptor, but currently, that seems rather unlikely to me.

    O7,

  15. #45
    Originally Posted by Louis Calvert View Post (Source)
    It's stated in Lore that Thargoids drives are longer-range than ours. However the method of that is unknown, though even if we assume the point-to-point jump range is the same as human ships, so a max of around 50ly, then that's still immense, especially given the ability to jump directly to a location rather than having to jump to a star and supercruise. That also gives them the ability to drop anywhere in deep space too, so even if single-jump-range is limited, they can hop-jump much more efficiently than us (since we need to do it via stars and the path often zig-zags!)
    Range isn't the only aspect, though.
    1) Is that a *recent* lore statement? Practical drive ranges in 3300 were about 40 LY max ... or closer to 15LY if you wanted to carry a useful combat payload. Just a few years later, we can make single jumps with over 280 LY range or half that in combat fit. Any pre-FSD lore would certainly not be much help.

    2) How long does that jump take? Is it like the old FE2/FFE-style drives where a max-range jump takes a week? 50LY/week would certainly be a believable speed given what the Thargoids have demonstrated in-game so far - and nightmarish for humans trying to respond with FE2/FFE-style drives to deal with - while still being pretty restricted to where they could go in practice.

    3) I'm inclined not to take precise statements from the novels as necessarily completely accurate - they were after all mostly written and published when a lot of game mechanics hadn't been finalised [1] - so while the broad events have occurred as depicted and can be taken as canon, specific facts about costs, capabilities, etc. are likely to involve some artistic license or just be plain wrong.

    It's a tricky one - Thargoid behaviour makes little sense if their FTL has comparable speed to the FSD, as they could either go around us or have destroyed us with ease. But if they are restricted to much slower speeds, they don't come across as much of a threat.


    For your larger point, yes, certainly there are areas where Thargoid technology is more effective, but then there appear to be plenty where human technology is more effective, even in the limited types that we actually see. Different rather than superior would be my assessment, based on what we've seen so far.

    [1] For a concrete example, Elite: Reclamation treated the Courier as comparable to its FE2/FFE size, 50,000 credits as a seriously large amount of money, and an Anaconda being large enough to hold an Adder docked with room to spare - while much of its depiction of in-system travel or fleet combat is hard to reconcile with how we see them actually work. (But it makes for a better and more exciting story to tell it that way, so that's not a problem)

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