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Thread: Privateer’s Alliance Charity Event Targeted for Griefing

  1. #1

    Privateer’s Alliance Charity Event Targeted for Griefing

    The Privateers Alliance is hosting a charity event for heart health, raising funds for heart related charities in the US, UK, and Europe. You can read more about this event at their website.

    Unfortunately, the event is being targeted by griefers for UA bombing.

    We recently had a similar effort to grief the Enigma Expedition for Dove Enigma. You may recall that Dove is a cancer patient, friends organized an expedition to Colonia with him, and Frontier kindly supplied a mega-ship for the purpose. On its way to Colonia, the ship was intentionally UA bombed to disrupt the expedition for the laughs and community outrage. Dove was not a happy camper, a broad swath of the community was incensed, and many pilots responded by taking meta-alloys to the stricken mega-ship to help repair and restore its mission.

    Leaders amongst these griefers claim this is “emergent game play” that creates fun for others as well as protests Frontier’s failure to develop the BGS. These are transparent rationalizations. If pilots shared a good experience in rescuing the Enigma Expedition and working to help Dove, that is not because of griefing. It is because they chose to do the right thing. This in no way excuses the malicious actions of the UA bombers. Nor does it excuse the malicious motives behind targeting the Privateers Alliance charity event.

    UA bombing has become one of the safe spaces for griefers in Elite. I don’t believe this was Frontier’s intent, and it was certainly not their intent to see good-faith charity events disrupted in this manner.

    In the forthcoming crime and punishment mechanic, Frontier has started to close the noose around griefers using notoriety, hot modules and ships, changed bounty and rebuy calculations, etc. We can hope that these will help prevent seal-clubbing. If not, the community will surely demand changes.

    Unfortunately, UA bombing is not addressed by C&P and there is no defense against it. One can only respond after the fact and at a substantial investment of time and credits. Griefers like those who targeted Dove Enigma and now the Privateer’s are therefore free to disrupt -- without consequence — honorific, memorial, and charity events like the Enigma Expedition and now Privateer’s Alliance.

    So what ought to be done? Three ideas come to my mind.

    One solution is to close down this mechanic altogether by stopping the sale of meta-alloys in black-markets.

    Another is to create in-game technology transfers that easily and permanently reverse and protect against UA bombing. Something like an Aegis community event to create the technology, which will then go on sale at specific stations for distribution to whatever stations are in need. One ton of the tech being all that is necessary, excess deliveries to a station become available on the market for delivery elsewhere. Delivering a Cutter full of this tech would be a pro-social mechanic many could get behind.

    Still another is to begin fleshing out the Karma mechanic for serial griefers, and include UA bombing in the metrics. If that is possible, it a longer term goal.

    What solutions around this issue come to your minds?

    PS: Please note that I am neither associated with nor speak for the Privateer's. Nor is their position on UA bombing the same as my own. Rather, they are a current example along with the Enigma Expedition of UA bombing targeting charity or other community events. As such they are useful for thinking through when and how UA bombing constitutes griefing and what to do about it.

    PSS: As the energy and ideas in this thread are winding down, I want to thank you folks for this informative debate. We have a good list of suggestions for UA bombing pro and con, and have identified several larger issues of design, mechanics, and norms that inform if and how it ought to be used.

    I was also somewhat surprised by the turn to whether charity events should be held or not in the context of Elite, but that related debate has also been informative.

    I’ll take some time to summarize the main points and post these in the near future. It will be some time before Frontier gives UA bombing another balance pass, but in the meantime we might be able to offer a range of options that may improve the situation.

    Good speed Cmdrs.

  2. #2
    UA bombing is an intended mechanic. It's had a few balance passes. Just appeal to people to help bring meta alloys.

  3. #3
    emergent gameplay = it has something to do with the gameplay because the game mechanics allow you to do something game-related to players.

    being facetious = disrupting real-life of people with real problems because a game mechanic magically ENABLES and MAGICALLY forces you to be a loathsome individual with poor moral judgement.

  4. #4
    Plenty of meta alloys for sale in Maia. Quite easy to counter UA's, Dove enigma was difficult due to the final destination being 22,000ly away.

    Not a fan of UA bombing, however it can be easily dealt with.

  5. #5
    If you need MA support, just let us know where to deliver them. Your station will be up and running in no time.

  6. #6
    The trash of the galaxy strikes again! How typical of ED...

    I’d love to help with this one, but it’ll be days before I can get back from the core. If it’s still an issue by then, I’ll gladly deliver MAs.

  7. #7
    Unfortunately, the ability to do this is intended, and the need to respond to it should be planned for when holding events in Elite: Dangerous.

    Remember, you CAN preemptively strike against UA bombing by proactively delivering MA's to sites that you know or suspect are going to be disrupted during the next tickover. Rather than waiting for the scumbags to be active, go ahead and start shoring up stations against UA bombing when you initially begin a player event. That's the prescribed defense against UA targeting and it's pretty effective if enough people do it.

  8. #8
    The guys who attack events are griefers, I agree with that statement. But griefers are also a fact of life. People will always find a way to be disruptive.

    In Elite we cannot destroy stations. And I like that, it would be problematic to allow players to blow up stations. However, there SHOULD be some sort of game mechanic to disrupt stations. UA bombing allows that, and meta-alloys counter it.

    Perhaps after enough of these happen, event organizers who are relying on in-game assets for their event will reach out to the community ahead of time. I'm SURE there are CMDRs who will park a T9 full of meta-alloys 1 jump away from your event, in case something happens.

  9. #9
    if you use some game/platform/service for your own agenda, don't be surprised of others doing the same. deal with it.

    whining is futile, but if you think it does you good ... go ahead.

    and inb4 you come at me with your high morals ... really couldn't care less.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Delilah View Post (Source)
    The Privateers Alliance is hosting a charity event for heart health, raising funds for heart related charities in the US, UK, and Europe. You can read more about this event at their website.

    Unfortunately, the event is being targeted by griefers for UA bombing.

    We recently had a similar effort to grief the Enigma Expedition for Dove Enigma. You may recall that Dove is a cancer patient, friends organized an expedition to Colonia with him, and Frontier kindly supplied a mega-ship for the purpose. On its way to Colonia, the ship was intentionally UA bombed to disrupt the expedition for the laughs and community outrage. Dove was not a happy camper, a broad swath of the community was incensed, and many pilots responded by taking meta-alloys to the stricken mega-ship to help repair and restore its mission.

    Leaders amongst these griefers claim this is “emergent game play” that creates fun for others as well as protests Frontier’s failure to develop the BGS. These are transparent rationalizations. If pilots shared a good experience in rescuing the Enigma Expedition and working to help Dove, that is not because of griefing. It is because they chose to do the right thing. This in no way excuses the malicious actions of the UA bombers. Nor does it excuse the malicious motives behind targeting the Privateers Alliance charity event.

    UA bombing has become one of the safe spaces for griefers in Elite. I don’t believe this was Frontier’s intent, and it was certainly not their intent to see good-faith charity events disrupted in this manner.

    In the forthcoming crime and punishment mechanic, Frontier has started to close the noose around griefers using notoriety, hot modules and ships, changed bounty and rebuy calculations, etc. We can hope that these will help prevent seal-clubbing. If not, the community will surely demand changes.

    Unfortunately, UA bombing is not addressed by C&P and there is no defense against it. One can only respond after the fact and at a substantial investment of time and credits. Griefers like those who targeted Dove Enigma and now the Privateer’s are therefore free to disrupt -- without consequence — honorific, memorial, and charity events like the Enigma Expedition and now Privateer’s Alliance.

    So what ought to be done? Three ideas come to my mind.

    One solution is to close down this mechanic altogether by stopping the sale of meta-alloys in black-markets.

    Another is to create in-game technology transfers that easily and permanently reverse and protect against UA bombing. Something like an Aegis community event to create the technology, which will then go on sale at specific stations for distribution to whatever stations are in need. One ton of the tech being all that is necessary, excess deliveries to a station become available on the market for delivery elsewhere. Delivering a Cutter full of this tech would be a pro-social mechanic many could get behind.

    Still another is to begin fleshing out the Karma mechanic for serial griefers, and include UA bombing in the metrics. If that is possible, it a longer term goal.

    What solutions around this issue come to your minds?
    So, to be fair, and reading the link you've provided, they've specifically asked people NOT to UA bomb the event itself.

    Like others have said it's fairly easy to mitigate the effects, call for help if your faction needs it.

  11. #11
    Thanks to you who have offered to help the Privateers Alliance if they are UA bombed. That is both kind and good of you.

    Still, let me make clear that I in no way represent the Privateers. I’m not a member and I haven’t had discussions with them. Rather my comments are focused on the malicious actions of a few griefers who use UA bombing and what might be done about it.

    Those of you who point out that UA bombing is an intended mechanic and it can be countered through deliveries are correct. Please note, however, that I’m not claiming otherwise *and* that part of this discussion is not my point.

    Rather I’m highlighting how UA bombing is an unintended safe space for griefers, and the community as a whole should want to stop that for the same reasons folks have called out seal-clubbing. This is especially obvious in the case of special events, like the Enigma Expedition or a charity fund raiser.

    For that to happen, creative ideas about how to defend proactively instead of simply respond reactively are needed. I’ve suggested one. Imgram suggest pre-delivery of meta-alloys which is good, but doesn't help small players. Appeals can be made, but not all are heard. So too, as BigJay indirectly suggests, we need better mechanics of interdicting stations that are less likely to be abused by griefers.

    I am particularly intrigued by how we might blockade stations without keeping or creating a safe space for griefers.

  12. #12
    The problem with what is called "Emergent Gameplay" around here is where it Emerges from - which is typically a small, *-shaped muscle, known for it's comical sounds and distinct aroma.

    Of course, and possibly quite coincidentally, there are no more "UA's" (Unknown Artifacts). We know what they are - they are Thargoid Probes, TP for short.

    And there is a very direct connection between TP and that particular *-shaped muscle mentioned above....

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Delilah View Post (Source)
    Thanks to you who have offered to help the Privateers Alliance if they are UA bombed. That is both kind and good of you.

    Still, let me make clear that I in no way represent the Privateers. I’m not a member and I haven’t had discussions with them. Rather my comments are focused on the malicious actions of a few griefers who use UA bombing and what might be done about it.

    Those of you who point out that UA bombing is an intended mechanic and it can be countered through deliveries are correct. Please note, however, that I’m not claiming otherwise *and* that part of this discussion is not my point.

    Rather I’m highlighting how UA bombing is an unintended safe space for griefers, and the community as a whole should want to stop that for the same reasons folks have called out seal-clubbing. This is especially obvious in the case of special events, like the Enigma Expedition or a charity fund raiser.

    For that to happen, creative ideas about how to defend proactively instead of simply respond reactively are needed. I’ve suggested one. Imgram suggest pre-delivery of meta-alloys which is good, but doesn't help small players. Appeals can be made, but not all are heard. So too, as BigJay indirectly suggests, we need better mechanics of interdicting stations that are less likely to be abused by griefers.

    I am particularly intrigued by how we might blockade stations without keeping or creating a safe space for griefers.
    "Small players" or small groups can make a difference. I went rogue against two UA bombers after our leadership directed us to ignore the bombing. (I'm not particularly good at obeying commands,but I'm loyal to a fault). The UA bombers had a long head start, but I reopened the station in short order without any help. It wasn't real difficult and I made an easy profit.

    Don't underestimate the lone wolf.

  14. #14
    The really curious thing for me is, why these people still have an active account, and how it can be that they probably will continue to do so after this.
    .
    What i mean is: You sometimes hear of charity events in other games. You hear of them honoring a deceased player, etc. But ED is the very only game since a long time, which makes the news that players actually go out and try to spoil the last wish of player with cancer. It's the very only game where people go for lengths to sabotage a charity event. And unfortunately it seems like once again, FDs response will be a massive "uh? meh!"
    .
    People here may not be aware of it, but the community of ED is racking up the reputation of being antisocial scumbags. We've not yet reached the point, where being part of this community is a reason to be ashamed, but we're making constant progress.
    .
    It's already sad that a part of the community, also some voices in this thread, just try to shrug it off as "it's a game" and something like that. I don't care to explain that this same old excuse, which i know since over 20 years now, never really cut it. But i dare to conclude draw conclusions on the mental capacities of some people, when they conclude that an activity with strong outside visibility (last wish of a player, so the actual real person, or an event for a real live charity organisation) is merely an in-game thing.
    .
    The other thing of course is that i wonder very much about FD, if they again don't see any reason to take steps. Because that's what the worldwide gamer community, so not only of this game, but gamers in general will see: Frontier seems to be all fine and happy when their players actively work against a charity event.
    .
    So why FD doesn't act is beyond me. We normal players can leave, or at least state that we were not involved in any of this. Some of the stench may remain, if you use the same player tag in other games, but it's manageable. It's ED and Frontier, which will forever bear the stigma of supporting anti-social behaviour, not only in game but also going out into the real life. So no, i don't expect those people, who sabotage charity events here to change their mind. I don't even expect that they could ever comprehend what they are doing, it's simply beyond their capablities. But unfortunately, while any other developer of publisher would take action, i am rather sure that FD once again also lacks the understanding on what is expected from them.
    .

  15. #15
    Ph1Lt0r here, wing commander of PA, I was really surprised to see PA mentioned here; appreciate the post! We defiantly don't condone the use of UA bombing in game, we are prepared for it. We have some dedicated folks who have mined a few thousand MAs and have them on standby. The unfortunate thing is overall, I agree with what the commander who is UA bombing wants changed, just wish it went a different way. The good news is that it won't affect the charity as events are not using our stations.

    I do appreciate that the commander who may or may not be bombing also promoted donating to the charity. I believe while UA bombing isn't a good thing, his heart is in the right place, and we always will accept a challenge and will thank him for a donation. We also appreciate the community support as well! We're up to 30% of our goal!

    Fly safe CMDRs, watch out for those wild Thargoid Artifacts floating around

    I guess what I am saying is, this isn't worth a witch hunt. -signed the folks being targeted.

    Also, for those who run player groups. We created a new account with our wing name, use it for private group, and got it into a cutter to store MAs for such situations. We have been targeted several times for UA bombing, but none have ever been successful.

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