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Thread: The Emergent Immersion Paroxysm

  1. #16
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    Indubitably. And a good bit of harmless fun, with maybe a slight hint of thought-process stimulus as well.
    That's all we can ask for, even if it isn't something we might otherwise expect...

  2. #17
    Originally Posted by Alec Turner View Post (Source)
    I have no problem with the correct use of either of those words in regard to Elite Dangerous.

    What we do in the Fuel Rats is absolutely emergent content, using screenshots of station clock on launch and landing for timing Buckyball Races (and using various aspects of terrain, structure, gravity, beacon scanning, etc, as elements of a race), that's emergent content.

    And for me ED is definitely immersive, when I'm playing I'm the commander of a spaceship traversing the galaxy in search of adventure ... and when I jump to an anarchy system and it pops up a message in the middle of my screen saying "Press [J] or [joystick 5] + [joystick 9]" to abort the jump ... that "breaks my immersion".
    On this, I do concur - especially the "Press [J]" display. It was fine during the tutorials, when I didn't know my aft from a black hole. And I get it, people can and do forget what their buttons do from time to time, but give me an option to turn this off already. If I haven't figured out how to ↓J [delay .125]↑[delay 3200]↓D [delay 6675]↑↓H [delay 2600]↑ by now, I never will.

  3. #18
    Fantastic thread, cane you make a series out of it?

    I'm sure I have my far share of misuses like that, and I may not even know it considering English isn't my primary language, so I would love to see more opportunities to learn from people better at using it.

    Repsez incomingz!

  4. #19
    Originally Posted by RamirezKurita View Post (Source)
    I get really annoyed by the incorrect usage of the term meta, as it seems like 90% of the internet nowadays misuse the term. Specifically, players don't understand the term metagame.

    Quite literally, the term metagame means "beyond the game...

    Which brings in the important point, if something is popular because it is the strongest and most effective tactic, then it cannot be part of the metagame.
    META is an acronym for Most Effective Tactic Available.
    It's not the Greek prefix. Hence cometh the confusion. People using the acronym don't capitalize, and spell it interchangeably with the prefix.

    Best tactics should be " the META", not the metagame.

  5. #20
    Here's an interesting thought...

    Lucid dreams not withstanding, our dreams seem rather "immersive" perhaps in part due to a separation of our logic driven, conscious brains not over-analyzing things and getting in the way. Now it's just a simple matter of recreating that in video game format in a compelling way with game mechanics.

    Originally Posted by Robin of Spiritwood View Post (Source)
    META is an acronym for Most Effective Tactic Available.
    It's not the Greek prefix. Hence cometh the confusion. People using the acronym don't capitalize, and spell it interchangeably with the prefix.
    When "META" (as you say) need not be meta, I find it to be more compelling in general. Again, YMMV.

  6. #21
    Originally Posted by WR3ND View Post (Source)
    Lucid dreams not withstanding, our dreams seem rather "immersive" perhaps in part due to a separation of our logic driven, conscious brains not over-analyzing things and getting in the way. Now it's just a simple matter of recreating that in video game format in a compelling way with game mechanics.
    It's called "flow". Goal is to keep your mind following a continuous patter of both stimulating and relaxing activity that makes you drift into a kind of lucid, automatic state of mind where you just go along with the game without reflecting (much) on what you're doing. Flow can also be observed in monotonous activities that still require concentration, like assembly line work.

  7. #22
    Originally Posted by Vardaugas View Post (Source)
    It's called "flow". Goal is to keep your mind following a continuous patter of both stimulating and relaxing activity that makes you drift into a kind of lucid, automatic state of mind where you just go along with the game without reflecting (much) on what you're doing. Flow can also be observed in monotonous activities that still require concentration, like assembly line work.
    Along with that, I presume our dreams are driven in no small part by our expectations within the dream and we don't break away from the dream's "immersive content" (at least not right away, usually), so I think continuity to match Commander expectations given various scenarios and ways of advancing and interacting with the game is also a relevant factor here.

    But back to your point, I do tend to do more exploration in the game (such as it is) when listening to good tunes and having a few beers, and without the risk of injuring myself or others. Conversely, I think the game could do with a bit more risk or at least seemingly meaningful challenges to placate my couscous brain.

  8. #23
    so i read the OP. The OP is wrong.

    He's <silly british censors> that people are mis-using the english language sometimes. Boo hoo.

    He's <silly british censors> upset that people want a strictly multi-player game vs this opt-in option they're working with and that defenders of that desire use the words that make him angry. Again, boo hoo.

    Forum posts that are about other people's forum posts are stupid wastes of space and should just be moved to off-topic or closed.

    There are plenty of reasons to complain about immersion in a game that caters to a niche of players that value escaping reality and markets itself that way. What makes the game fun is surrounding yourself in a universe created around the game and being part of that. Immersion in a game like this is no less important than an actual game mechanic and when it's not working as it should, it's a problem no less annoying than when a game mechanic is not working as designed. Many of those things aren't a matter of having a better or different imagination.

    So lets take the example that the OP seems really butt hurt about. PvP/pvp-only advocates.

    The common complaint is that it's immersion breaking that players can do things that circumvent player activity (like blockading a system).

    Fdev can address this a number of ways vs what they currently do which is ignore the issue. Perhaps they can represent players activities not in your instance but in your areas/system by spawning a certain number of NPCS that represent them using a low resolution sampling of player activities over time. Then a human player's activity can be negated with an opposing action against an X number of NPCS that have been spawned to represent their activity. This can be highly effective in BGS manipulation. And this can be done across modes.

    That's just one example where the answer doesn't mean fdev has to force all the scared players who dont want to go against dedicated PvP'ers to pvp.

    There are plenty of other areas that dont have anything to do with combat that break immersion unnecessarily, like in how mysteries are handled in the game, how you socialize with other players, how you log important info in the game, how you deal with the utter boredom of traveling in the game.

    This post tries to trivialize the concern over how the game fails to provide the escape that many players in this genre feel is a high priority. Unfortunately, if you didn't want that to be a very high priority, you shouldn't be playing these kinds of games that are favored by these kinds of players.

  9. #24
    Originally Posted by Robin of Spiritwood View Post (Source)
    META is an acronym for Most Effective Tactic Available.
    It's not the Greek prefix. Hence cometh the confusion. People using the acronym don't capitalize, and spell it interchangeably with the prefix.

    Best tactics should be " the META", not the metagame.
    Oh, that ridiculous backronym created by the ignorant and the arrogant to cover their tracks. It's no coincidence that that they have the same spellings, the term meta has been thrown around wrongly for years before that backronym became a thing as many players weren't able or willing to admit that the tactic they were using was due to a balance problem rather than being due to forces beyond the game. Over time, the term devolved beyond meaning beyond the game into simply what is popular, even if said thing was popular due to broken mechanics rather than the players themselves, which then led towards players who wanted to feel smug mislabelling the tactic as meta rather than just calling it OP. I'm all for new words being implemented for new things, but outright lying about the definition of a word to maintain perceived superiority, which then picks up and causes an ever descending spiral of linguistic breakdown to the point where people parrot the incorrect form rather than looking at the truth just really grinds against my sensibilities. It's like the whole thing with fake news nowadays, except that it isn't just about overhyped sensationalism but instead a complete failure of the very fabric of our communication.

  10. #25
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    And a good bit of harmless fun, with maybe a slight hint of thought-process stimulus as well.
    You expect too much from the trolls around here. Whining is not about intelligence; it's about the ignorance and self interest of infants who use these forums as their own personal baby stroller.

    "Emergent"? Just another buzz word (and if some uses the the phrase "let's 'drill down' into this topic" I will punch them out).

    As for "parrot"... I do get your point on attribution error; particularly around here.

  11. #26
    Originally Posted by Manticore View Post (Source)
    You expect too much from the trolls around here. ...
    Water off a duck's back. Not sure who the ducks are here though, so I try not to dwell on it. For my part, I'm just trying to have a reasonable if not constructive conversation about the points I have some interest in. Sorry if that's getting a bit off topic though.

    Heh. I just noticed this is in the off topic section of the forum now, so it looks like I'm covered.

  12. #27
    Originally Posted by WR3ND View Post (Source)
    Water off a duck's back. Not sure who the ducks are here though, so I try not to dwell on it. For my part, I'm just trying to have a reasonable if not constructive conversation about the points I have some interest in. Sorry if that's getting a bit off topic though.

    Heh. I just noticed this is in the off topic section of the forum now, so it looks like I'm covered.
    I respect your interest. Unfortunately "that word" tends to be used an excuse for just about everything around here. I didn't see this thread before it was in OT.

  13. #28
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    Language does require some immutability, or we'd all sound like we're suffering from aphasia. It wouldn't work, and civilization would still be pointing and grunting at things - which at times can be more clear than actually speaking, but not so good for the written word.
    Only to the extent that it allows you to accurately and efficiently communicate with your audience. If you find yourself listening to a discussion and wondering why some words are being used in a manner utterly alien to you, that would be because the discussion is taking place in a different language, one that is tailored for a specific group who has assigned a different meaning to those words through their shared values and experiences. This happens all the time and at every scale, from private jokes shared only between friends, professional jargons and subcultures slangs, regional dialects, idioms and coloquialisms (I'll leave out the obvious fact there are different proper languages out there as we've all at least agreed to use English in here).

    Are all of these wrong? They might be ill-suited to convey information to you, but how likely is it that the whole conversation was aimed specifically at you? If it allows communication within the intended group, then it's all good.

  14. #29
    Emergent content was a term used in gaming to describe mechanics in a game (or the use of those mechanics), which created game play the designers didn't necessarily think about when designing the game originally.

    A simple example might be a game created about building bridges over rivers, in which players figure out how to use the bridge building tools to create castles with weaponised draw bridges.

    Another example might be a mechanic that allows you to create mine carts for your dwarves to use to move items around their underground fortress more efficiently, which is subsequently used to create a means of catapulting various sharp implements out of the front of the fortress when under attack, to hail incoming goblins with various weapons, and even the mine cart itself.


    That's what it was originally intended to describe, when used in the context of game mechanics.

    It's actual literal meaning is sort of irrelevant when used in this context, in a similar way, various subjects alter the meaning of words during their development.

    Orthogonal Unit Differentiation has been used by game designers to describe enemies which have distinct and unique characteristics, whereas orthogonal doesn't exactly mean that in a literal sense.

  15. #30
    Great post OP +1.

    Well except the bit about multi-play not breaking immersion, will have to agree to differ over that!

    Simon

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