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Thread: Force Feedback Support (Haptic Feedback) - Varied For All Ships - In the unfolding PU

  1. #1

    Force Feedback Support (Haptic Feedback) - Varied For All Ships

    Can we please have full and proper Force Feedback (haptic feedback) implemented a bit sooner rather than a lot later. And then across the games unfolding universe to give that extra tactile feeling to the game, for those who want it.


    What with the game being on the xbox one, sure this has haptic feedback on the xbox one controller and on its triggers? So how big a leap would it be to start implementing full and proper force feedback support for all ships - varied of course to reflect small to large ships and the vibrations and collision events and weapons fire etc. And then right across the games universe including, entering planetary atmospheres and landing and then on the surface in buggies etc. And on space stations when walking about.



    After core game of course and things like the more popular controllers like TrackIR and the Oc Rift.

    Also the force feedback support and files int he games folders could be used to supplement 6DOF motion rigs with extra data to drive them, showing impacts and weapons fire, and ships hull and landing gear functions if required along with the normal joystick movement data.


    And what force feedback options/features would you like to see included in the games settings. Something detailed enough to control the force feedback in all areas of the game and for centring options, which is important for force feedback sticks and HOTAS because the centring comes from the motors.


    Star Citizen devs have said they are researching force feedback support, and have a couple of re-conditioned Logitech G940 HOTAS. [LINK]

    CIG and FD games have a great opportunity I think to revive force feedback and make it anew for their space games. CIG have confirmed they are researching force feedback, and FD games David Braben recently said in a Q&A session that they will implement force feedback, but with no time frame on that yet.

    Originally Posted by ErgoProxY View Post (Source)
    hello

    have you read this?
    http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=26326



    Little*jobbie question to David Braben:
    Quote:

    2). Forcefeedback will it be supported?.


    2. I'm sure we will - I don't have a 'when' just now.


    :smilie:



    Even in space, the ships in ED could easily have full force feedback support to further aid the tactile joystick immersion, if you want it as a commander that is.

    "Forces? What forces are there in a space craft with all electronic controls!?"

    There are forces and effects that can be represented absolutely everywhere on a space craft via haptic feedback forces and vibrations. Vibrations from Landing gear operation, landing and take off forces and vibration, atmospheric flight - both entry and exit, atmospheric exit thrust forces, impacts in asteroid fields and with other space objects impacting the shields and hull including other ships or docking rings. Entering and exiting hyperspace and interdictions. Ballistic weapons fire vibration, combat damage vibrations from ballistic weapons fire and missile hits to shield impacts. Then there could be the vibration forces from using afterburners or sudden reverse thrust. And even some opposite force when nearing stress limits - and in very tight turns, a slow force building up when near blackout and then maybe a stick shaker reminder.

    Modern jets, and especially the newer ones do have haptic feedback, all with varying degrees of force. Different countries outfit their versions of the fighter jets with haptic feedback sticks and throttls. There are several companies that do this, supplying very expensive flight sticks and throttles to give the pilot some sense of feedback through he stick and throttle.


    And although unlikely to happen now, but I would really like to see some haptic feedback on the left hand throttle of a force feedback HOTAS. To FEEL the ships engines throttle up and down will give a good pilot an extra tactile feedback on the state of their engines. Something no one has really attempted yet.



    With space ships, we just take it a little further. With a little artist license in its implementation right across the games universe.


    Personally I can't imagine a more immerse Elite home experience then a HD+ Oculus Rift - a good pair of surround headphones and a Force Feedback Joystick in my hand (besides a butt kicker and a 6DOF motion rig
    ).

    And maybe also using a LeapMotion hand tracker on the other hand - for ships control panels. Although the accessible technology for a haptic feedback lightweight glove and software intergeneration is some years away.


    And what other haptic events could we expect to experience when not piloting out space craft, walking around them and using other stations like gunners seats. And on space stations, in zero- areas and outside in space on EVA if this happens. And not forgetting planet side on asteroids and moons and planets.


    I would expect to see a couple of settings or more in the advanced controller options eventually to adjust the amount of force feedback. This would seem a logical step to take. And other options, but I'd leave that to the dev's to decide upon. Certainly some advanced force feedback options would be great to have so one can fine tune the experience.


    Plus anyone using a force feedback stick or HOTAS in ED will need the auto centring addressed, most have the optical sensor to detect when the grip is held. So some section in the games settings/advanced joystick controls will need to have force feedback centring options. And many more I hope to further adjust force feedback options, such as strengths and maybe limiting where FFB is used. Then also having the option to manually edit the games *.ffe files (haptic feedback effect files).


    And of course, not forgetting the xbox one controllers haptic feedback triggers, and the xbox360 pads rumble. And I guess the valve controller, which ever version finally comes on sale.


    I'm guessing FD would need this software or software like it to aid in creating the force feedback programming. [LINK] (Immersion studio)




    Although no new force feedback joysticks or HOTAS are currently being made, if Elite and Star Citizen both revive and implement it- basic at first for all ships and then refined for each ship and other parts of the unfolding games universe, this will send a good message I believe to fans of force feedback and the main joystick manufacturers. With the new hardware materials and software we have nowadays, force feedback could be better than ever.

    As you might know by now I am very passionate about force feedback. A great opportunity here to revive force feedback, and make it anew for Elite Dangerous.



    To all commanders who support this idea, show your support and post a comment. A dev comment would be most welcome.



    And I for one am ready to help with any force feedback mapping out and testing. I have all the sticks and HOTAS named in the next post except the G940.

  2. #2
    Some examples of the main force feedback HOTAS and joysticks. All of which still work in Windows 7 and mostly in windows 8 and would expect windows 9 as well.


    Device Name: Logitech Flight System G940 HOTAS
    Controller ID: 0x0
    Vendor ID: 0x046D
    Product ID: 0xC287


    Device Name : Thrustmaster Top Gun Afterburner Force feedback HOTAS
    VendorID 0x044F
    ProductID 0xB550

    (the younger brother of the current T.Flight X HOTAS)


    Device Name : Microsoft Force Feedback 2 Stick
    VID: 0x045E
    PID: 0x001B


    Device Name : WingMan Force 3D
    Vendor ID: 0x046D
    Product ID: 0xC283


    Device Name : WingMan Strike Force 3D
    Vendor ID: 0x046D
    Product ID: 0xC285


    Device Name : Cyborg Evo Force
    Vendor Id : 0x06A3
    Product Id : 0xFFB5



    Still the most popular force feedback joystick, the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2, both black button and red button versions. Popular and widely used force feedback stick, of which many citizens still have one lurking around at home. Also the next popular force feedback sticks that are not so far lost in the past, the Saitek Evo Force, the Logitech Wingman Strike Force 3D, the Logitech Wingman Force 3D, and a good number still own the Logitech G940 and have modded the issue out of the device.

    All can be bought on Ebay or other local on line auctions, and of course picked up at car boot sales. At prices to suit all.


    Getting full and proper force feedback (haptic feedback) support into Elite and Star Citizen will go a long way towards helping joystick manufacturers possibly taking a risk and developing a new FFB stick/HOTAS, even in a limited production run to start with. Cost, and the problems with returns and repairs were the main reasons they stopped making them. With today's manufacturing processes and materials, force feedback sticks and HOTAS could be far more reliable and cost effective. But demand has to be there first, which is why I support the idea of force feedback (haptic feedback) support in Elite and Star Citizen.

    Personally I'd love to feel a little rumble on the left hand throttle as well (optional to turn on or off).

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Ahhhh there's the thread you planned to do, good job JonnyRedHed!
    But I hope the devs visit this forum-section from time to time.

    I don't have to tell you anymore, but anyone who didn't have the opportunity to use a FFB-joystick back in the days, clearly has missed an entire world of immersion!
    That's the reason why the MSFFB2 in particular, was so popular...and I know plenty of virtual pilots who even bought a 2nd one (when MS announced they would stop production), to keep safely packed on the shelf, so to have a spare one, or a supply of parts.

    Coming from a WW2 combat flightsim community, I was surprised to see to which degree combat in ED resembles my earlier experience.
    Energy management, and situational awareness don't differ that much, and add the use of projectile-based weapons (cannons), and the resemblance becomes even more appearant!
    I immeadiatly felt at home....but having an expensive force-feedback stick in front of me, of which half of the capabilities aren't being used, just doesn't feel right.
    I know that's not ED's fault...but my guess is that there are hundreds of ED players right now, who own some sort of FFB-device.
    And potentially hundreds of players still to come.
    Sure, it's a niche in the market, but if FFB support will get listed in the game's features, it will attrackt those hundreds of players, no doubt!
    Once they see that, they will go

    Originally Posted by JonnyRedHed View Post (Source)
    Plus anyone using a force feedback stick or HOTAS in ED will need the auto centring addressed, most have the optical sensor to detect when the grip is held. So some section in the games settings/advanced joystick controls will need to have force feedback centring options.
    Do you mean, that you don't have auto-centring in ED?
    My MSFFB2 works perfectly in that regard...once I grab the stick and block the optical sensor, I get the auto-centre just fine.
    I'm using just the Win7 drivers, nothing else.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Andy_Pipkin View Post (Source)
    Ahhhh there's the thread you planned to do, good job JonnyRedHed!
    But I hope the devs visit this forum-section from time to time.


    Do you mean, that you don't have auto-centring in ED?
    My MSFFB2 works perfectly in that regard...once I grab the stick and block the optical sensor, I get the auto-centre just fine.
    I'm using just the Win7 drivers, nothing else.
    Thanks for the support Andy.

    Centring is a bit hit and miss for me with force feedback sticks. The Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 seems ok. But the other ones I list are somewhat hit and miss. I am not however in the ED beta so will have to take your word for it regarding the MS FFB2.

    This section on the forum appears to have all the [Requests] and [Proposals]. Should be fine for devs to see it.




    To all commanders who support this idea, show your support and post a comment. A dev comment would be most welcome.

  6. #6
    I would love to see feedback support added to the game and considering Frontier seem to be trying to allow for all types of technological immersion I fully expect it to be added at some point. MS Flight Sims support was a bit harsh (expecially when you crashed!) so I hope its a bit more subtle than that. The best ever game I have played with FF was EAs Formula 1 Challenge 99-02, when you hit the kerbs the FF was amazing.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by nats View Post (Source)
    I would love to see feedback support added to the game and considering Frontier seem to be trying to allow for all types of technological immersion I fully expect it to be added at some point. MS Flight Sims support was a bit harsh (expecially when you crashed!) so I hope its a bit more subtle than that. The best ever game I have played with FF was EAs Formula 1 Challenge 99-02, when you hit the kerbs the FF was amazing.
    Yes if done well and made anew for space sims, force feedback could work very well for space craft and in other areas of the game. I'm sure much better (modern) understanding of the coding needed for force feedback could be used.

    A great opportunity here to revive and renew.

  8. #8
    Throw my hat, er I mean space helmet into the request!!!!

    Star Citizen is working on force feedback with G940s?!?!?!?

    Hmmmm, I am looking at my G940 right now and am wondering how Star Citizen would play on it,,,,,,,,,,,

  9. #9

    360 controller

    Even on my xbox 360 controller would be nice.

  10. #10
    Would love to see a haptic joystick if my MS Sidewinder 2 won't do, as long as it has more buttons on the stick, 8-way hat switches, pedal and voice command support.

  11. #11
    Im in full support of this!
    FFB might not be "the thing" anymore, and flight simmers often prefer precision over gimmicks, but ED is not a sim in that sense, but a game about immersion and funfactor and FFB really should be made available for those wanting to use it.


    Also, as ive mentioned in earlier threads, for anyone as unlucky as me to have the Logitech G940 hotas, there is no way of setting the joysticks stiffness without a functional FFB and will be forced to use the systems default setting. Ive adapted to this so its a minor annoyance for me, but others might find it a bigger issue.

  12. #12
    Great point!! Taking immersion out of it, would still be nice to tone down the centering force on the 940.

    However I do have the joystick tilted at an angle, such that I can kill the power to it and it stays pretty much centered.

    Makes for less sore wrists after extended gameplay,,,,,,,,,,,

  13. #13

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Riktar View Post (Source)
    Great point!! Taking immersion out of it, would still be nice to tone down the centering force on the 940.

    However I do have the joystick tilted at an angle, such that I can kill the power to it and it stays pretty much centered.

    Makes for less sore wrists after extended gameplay,,,,,,,,,,,
    Aah, neat trick! But it wont recenter itself at all then, isnt that difficult to fly with?

  15. #15
    Either losing centring in-game or fighting it in-game is an issue with force feedback joysticks and HOTAS when not properly supported for force feedback and the motor centring.

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