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Thread: New PC for ED - Expert Advice Required!

  1. #31
    Originally Posted by Jon flint View Post (Source)
    Re, hyperthreading with elite:

    #2 and #6 in this thread have some handy screenshots of just how balanced the load is over 12 logical cores.

    Seems pretty even to me, except under vr load where one thread seems to be more heavily loaded than the others.
    It is fairly even, which is what you'd expect when you cap the frame rate to 60 and don't need the render threads or the GPU driver threads to do very much.

    Uncapped, GPU load would climb to 100% and 2-4 of those logical cores would be noticeably more heavily loaded than the rest, but still wouldn't likely crack 60% utilization, because an 8700K is total overkill for this game with only a GTX 1080 Ti for graphics.

    You'd need to be trying to push over 200 fps for an 8700K to be the limiting factor.

    VR load is more demanding and thus you start to see the render threads need more cycles than the worker threads.

    Originally Posted by MickyG1982 View Post (Source)
    It's not very GPU limited on my system...
    The CPU in your signature is a quad core Kaveri. It's rather slow, even relative to first gen i7s.

  2. #32
    Just did some testing of my own on my main system, which has an i7-5820K @ 4.3GHz and a GTX 1080 Ti @ 2025MHz. I reset the game to the "Ultra" quality preset (plus 60 FOV), default driver settings, and used Process Explorer to look at CPU load at 4k and 1080p resolutions in the SRV training mission.

    GPU load was 100% in all examples.

    At 4k CPU utilization is very low, other than the spike caused by the screen grab, and it's hard to distinguish one thread from another:


    At 1080p frame rate increases by about 2.5x and CPU load goes up as well, concentrated on one logical core per physical core, with a few of the cores starting to look more loaded than others:


    Now lets see what these threads are doing at 1080p (I went to the process properties and sorted by CPU load):


    Highest load is almost certainly the main render thread, followed by the graphics driver thread, and then what is probably another render thread, then all the lower load worker threads, and finally the audio thread.

    The reason I say the game doesn't really scale well with cores isn't that it can't spawn sufficient workers, it's that only three of the threads scale in load. All the other threads could probably be scheduled to the same logical core, or two at the most, without harming performance.

    Anyway, this game doesn't need, or really benefit from, an 8700K, unless you are multitasking or trying to play the game at four hundred FPS.

  3. #33
    Originally Posted by Apsley View Post (Source)
    Everything is ordered, and the old PC should be retired by the weekend.

    i7 8600k - good advice here. Once I looked at it the extra poke for the cost seemed worth the extra pennies over the i5.
    8Gb 1070ti - managed to find a ti for only 30 more than a 1070 so seemed like a good idea.
    500Gb Evo 860 SSD - never had a PC with an SSD so looking forward to this.
    2Tb Storage
    450w PSU - not sure if this may be an error. Think it was Necronaught suggested sticking in a larger PSU so upgrading is easy later. That was a smart idea which I promptly forgot about until I was mulling my choices over today.
    Gigabyte Z370 AORUS Ultra Gaming motherboard. - don't know about this, slightly mixed reviews from Tom, but it was fairy cheap. bad idea to cut costs on the board?

    And went with the iiyama monitor. Decent response time viewing angles, connectivity etc... and cheap enough I can upgrade further down the track if we don't get along.

    Thanks all, the community here is fantastic.
    Cheers,

    Aps.
    I have the Aorus gaming ultra board with an 8700k. It has less "stuff" on it than enthusiast boards so single BIOS, no wifi, no COAX digital sound output etc but it has good things like a decent number of fan connectors, decent number of SATA connectors etc and M2. Basically I can plug everything I need to into it, it seems solidly built, the BIOS screens are fine, I don't use wifi anyway. Nothing gets very hot, the CPU runs without issue at 5GHz. It's doing exactly the same thing a 250 board would do I.E. connecting all the components together but at 1/2 the cost. Also you can change the colours of the LEDs and have a temperature related scheme so they LEDs start green and go yellow when the board warms up

  4. #34
    Originally Posted by Dural View Post (Source)
    I have the Aorus gaming ultra board with an 8700k. It has less "stuff" on it than enthusiast boards so single BIOS, no wifi, no COAX digital sound output etc but it has good things like a decent number of fan connectors, decent number of SATA connectors etc and M2. Basically I can plug everything I need to into it, it seems solidly built, the BIOS screens are fine, I don't use wifi anyway. Nothing gets very hot, the CPU runs without issue at 5GHz. It's doing exactly the same thing a 250 board would do I.E. connecting all the components together but at 1/2 the cost. Also you can change the colours of the LEDs and have a temperature related scheme so they LEDs start green and go yellow when the board warms up
    That's the same board and brain I'm after on payday. After doing some research and finding out that an over clocked i5 2500k performs just as well as a Ryzen 2700X. Something is not right there if a 7 year old CPU can compete with a brand new CPU.

    May I ask are you using stock cooling to OC 5Ghz?

  5. #35
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    I'm acutely aware of the loss of definition at 1080p. Using 1440p or 4k, on moderately large displays (say 27-32") definitely affects my gameplay for the better.
    Well I did say I was speaking purely from a personal point of view To me, there's no diff whether it's 1920x1080 or 3840x2160 on anything less than 50 inches. As far as I know, there aren't any 50 inches or higher MONITORS on sale here in Singapore. Even if there was, I'd feel weird sitting so close to such a big monitor, and maybe TrackIR might go haywire tracking my head when I'm turning it all over just to look at the screen...

    Yes I am sure there are people such as you, who can see the difference on a small screen like a 27 inch, but until the OP does this test for himself, he won't know if he could really see the difference on the monitor size of his choice.

  6. #36
    Originally Posted by Necronaught View Post (Source)
    That's the same board and brain I'm after on payday. After doing some research and finding out that an over clocked i5 2500k performs just as well as a Ryzen 2700X. Something is not right there if a 7 year old CPU can compete with a brand new CPU.

    May I ask are you using stock cooling to OC 5Ghz?
    http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare...700X/619vs3958

    Hmm...

  7. #37
    Originally Posted by Necronaught View Post (Source)
    That's the same board and brain I'm after on payday. After doing some research and finding out that an over clocked i5 2500k performs just as well as a Ryzen 2700X. Something is not right there if a 7 year old CPU can compete with a brand new CPU.

    May I ask are you using stock cooling to OC 5Ghz?
    Yeah, you'd expect the newer kit to outperform the old stuff in all areas.

    I'm a great believer in closed loop watercooling systems for CPUs because you can vent the hot air straight out of the case and it also helps draw more cooler air into it as well, you don't get hotspots where the internal cooler is sending a stream of hot air onto something or have to rely on case fans to get rid of all the hot air you're blowing about inside the case. I'm using a dual rad, I think it's an arctic 240 with pushmepullyou fans. I've seen the CPU hit 60 ish degrees running prime95 for 10 minutes. I dare say a decent single rad wouldn't be far off that.

    The fan control app which comes with the board is excellent BTW.

  8. #38
    Originally Posted by FoxTwo View Post (Source)
    Well I did say I was speaking purely from a personal point of view To me, there's no diff whether it's 1920x1080 or 3840x2160 on anything less than 50 inches. As far as I know, there aren't any 50 inches or higher MONITORS on sale here in Singapore. Even if there was, I'd feel weird sitting so close to such a big monitor, and maybe TrackIR might go haywire tracking my head when I'm turning it all over just to look at the screen...

    Yes I am sure there are people such as you, who can see the difference on a small screen like a 27 inch, but until the OP does this test for himself, he won't know if he could really see the difference on the monitor size of his choice.
    I have to take issue with this. I really don't know how you can say you don't notice the difference. I have a 27" 2560x1440 monitor on my main PC - to the side is a 27" 1920x1080 connected to my secondary PC. Both machines have the same i7, the main one has a 1070 and the secondary a 970. Running Elite at ultra on both machines the difference is hugely apparent.

    When I originally moved to the 1440 monitor on my main PC I was delighted by the huge increase in visual detail.

    I suggest that if you can't see the difference you really need to make an appointment with an optician - and I am not being rude, just honest.

  9. #39
    Elite really is not a very intensive game, unless you are playing in VR. Compared to say an open world multiplayer FPS, which just chugs on the ram.

    I run a i7/12gig ram/1050ti rig. Which can only just handle Escape from Tarkov, but runs Elite endlessly without even warming up.
    I have a little box with an old Athlon 64/4gig ram/gtx 750, and that runs Elite. Yet can't even boot many of my modern games.

    All this to say Elite is very well optimised and not very intensive.

    I think plan B is realistic and given the detailed advice in this thread you really shouldn't have much trouble working out a build within your price range.. o7

  10. #40
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    5
    The CPU in your signature is a quad core Kaveri. It's rather slow, even relative to first gen i7s.
    I know, it was more than a little tongue in cheek and taking the P. Much like the mob it's plugged into, I mean it supports 3 way crossfire, when would it ever need that?

    I get the feeling that the manufacturer much like myself, expected more from the FM2+ socket...

  11. #41
    Originally Posted by FoxTwo View Post (Source)
    Well I did say I was speaking purely from a personal point of view To me, there's no diff whether it's 1920x1080 or 3840x2160 on anything less than 50 inches. As far as I know, there aren't any 50 inches or higher MONITORS on sale here in Singapore. Even if there was, I'd feel weird sitting so close to such a big monitor, and maybe TrackIR might go haywire tracking my head when I'm turning it all over just to look at the screen...

    Yes I am sure there are people such as you, who can see the difference on a small screen like a 27 inch, but until the OP does this test for himself, he won't know if he could really see the difference on the monitor size of his choice.
    Of course a lot is down to personal taste, but if you can resolve the extra pixels they can relay extra information to you.

    Personally, I'm pretty happy with 32" 1440p displays and would find a 40" ideal for a 2160p display, which are quite a bit lower PPI than many people would prefer.

    Originally Posted by Dural View Post (Source)
    I'm a great believer in closed loop watercooling systems for CPUs because you can vent the hot air straight out of the case and it also helps draw more cooler air into it as well, you don't get hotspots where the internal cooler is sending a stream of hot air onto something or have to rely on case fans to get rid of all the hot air you're blowing about inside the case.
    Being able to place the radiator in an ideal location, no matter where the component being cooled happens to be, is surely a major advantage of liquid cooling.

    However, the location of most CPUs and the prevalence of large openings in most cases in their immediate proximity means that most tower heatsinks can essentially vent directly to the outside. Often I don't even install a rear case fan and pull off any fan grills as well, so that exhaust from the CPU cooler mostly goes straight out the back.

    In a water cooled system, I often find it best to use the radiators as intakes, as this typically keeps the CPU and GPU a few C cooler than otherwise, and the warm air from the radiators being dumped into the case is of little concern to components that still aren't likely to be running particularly warm.

    Originally Posted by MickyG1982 View Post (Source)
    I get the feeling that the manufacturer much like myself, expected more from the FM2+ socket...
    FM2+ was always oriented around low power APUs, anything else released for it were generally die harvested parts used to plug holes in the line up. It had it's niche, but gaming, beyond 'entry level' stuff, was really was never going to be one of them. The manufacturer's and board partners knew this, but they still had to try to sell it.

  12. #42
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    Being able to place the radiator in an ideal location, no matter where the component being cooled happens to be, is surely a major advantage of liquid cooling.

    However, the location of most CPUs and the prevalence of large openings in most cases in their immediate proximity means that most tower heatsinks can essentially vent directly to the outside. Often I don't even install a rear case fan and pull off any fan grills as well, so that exhaust from the CPU cooler mostly goes straight out the back.

    In a water cooled system, I often find it best to use the radiators as intakes, as this typically keeps the CPU and GPU a few C cooler than otherwise, and the warm air from the radiators being dumped into the case is of little concern to components that still aren't likely to be running particularly warm.
    I'm going to disagree with you, not because it isn't possible to effectively cool a case with an internal heat sink but simple logic dictates cooling is going to be more effective if you're dumping the warm air straight out of the thing, also blowing warm air into the case through the radiator doesn't make sense to me, you might be cooling whatever is connected to the watercooling system more effectively but you're not doing anything else any favours. You are more likely to see positive pressure in the case too which as you'll know you want to avoid.

    An interesting experiment is to connect a duct to your CPU fan inlet side from outside the case, you'll see a drop of 3 or 4 degrees, you'll never achieve just using inlet fans but demonstrates why you should be dumping hot air out as quickly and directly as possible.

    Anyway, you may see a variance of 10 or 15 degrees between identical setups depending on your cooling setup which unless you're going for the maximum possible clock speed you can, is going to make absolutely no difference to anything short term I guess it's just a matter of preference, if everything is running at tolerable temperatures it doesn't really matter other than components which run cooler tend to last longer, especially platter drives.

  13. #43
    Originally Posted by Dural View Post (Source)
    I'm going to disagree with you, not because it isn't possible to effectively cool a case with an internal heat sink but simple logic dictates cooling is going to be more effective if you're dumping the warm air straight out of the thing, also blowing warm air into the case through the radiator doesn't make sense to me, you might be cooling whatever is connected to the watercooling system more effectively but you're not doing anything else any favours. You are more likely to see positive pressure in the case too which as you'll know you want to avoid.
    Going to offer my 2 cents on a couple of those points.

    From my own experience, with CPU closed loop coolers (not full open loops which include CPU& GPU), a rad is best placed as an intake rather then as an exhaust, simply because the warm air coming off a rad isn't really that warm and barely adds a degree or two to the system components. Even with a 5.2GHz 8700k running at 100% usage, the exhaust temp from the rad is only around 30-35 degrees (with ambient temp of 21 degrees).

    If you place the rad as an exhaust you end up sucking REALLY hot air (60+ degrees) from the GPU through the rad and can see liquid temps rise by 15-20 degrees, and correspondingly CPU temps rise by that amount.

    Granted, if you're using an open loop and have got the GPU in there too, then you're right, an exhaust is the best option.

    +Positive case pressure is a good thing in my book, keeps dust from being sucked into the case through unfiltered gaps/vents etc.

  14. #44
    Originally Posted by Jon flint View Post (Source)
    Going to offer my 2 cents on a couple of those points.

    From my own experience, with CPU closed loop coolers (not full open loops which include CPU& GPU), a rad is best placed as an intake rather then as an exhaust, simply because the warm air coming off a rad isn't really that warm and barely adds a degree or two to the system components. Even with a 5.2GHz 8700k running at 100% usage, the exhaust temp from the rad is only around 30-35 degrees (with ambient temp of 21 degrees).

    If you place the rad as an exhaust you end up sucking REALLY hot air (60+ degrees) from the GPU through the rad and can see liquid temps rise by 15-20 degrees, and correspondingly CPU temps rise by that amount.

    Granted, if you're using an open loop and have got the GPU in there too, then you're right, an exhaust is the best option.

    +Positive case pressure is a good thing in my book, keeps dust from being sucked into the case through unfiltered gaps/vents etc.
    I guess it depends on the setup. Blowing air at 30-35 degrees into the case doesn't sound like a good idea but neither does sucking air straight off a GPU through a radiator either so best probably not to do either of them if possible.

    The downside of positive pressure in the case is you end up with pockets of static air, at least that's my understanding and even the best fan filters will allow very small particles through them so you're going to end up with dust in there anyway sooner or later.

    Based on my experience, a half sensible fan above the GPU on the back side of the case does a reasonable job clearing a lot of the hot air coupled with a second fan inside the case blowing over the top of the back of the card towards the rear fan which also helps move more air over the mainboard. The rad is well placed at the top of the case towards the front where air can be draw both through the front bays via a filter (AKA acoustic wading) and from within the case. Filtered low speed inlet fans at the front and bottom feed in cool and pass it over the drives. Taping up any vents near fans also means more air is moved through the case rather than drawn in next to the fans and pumped straight out again.

    Someone needs to invent a temperature sensor mesh to record the temperature in a 3d grid pattern.

  15. #45
    Originally Posted by Dural View Post (Source)
    blowing warm air into the case through the radiator doesn't make sense to me, you might be cooling whatever is connected to the watercooling system more effectively but you're not doing anything else any favours.
    Originally Posted by Dural View Post (Source)
    Anyway, you may see a variance of 10 or 15 degrees between identical setups depending on your cooling setup which unless you're going for the maximum possible clock speed you can, is going to make absolutely no difference to anything short term I guess it's just a matter of preference, if everything is running at tolerable temperatures it doesn't really matter
    Nothing else needs any favors. CPU and GPU temperatures are essentially always the limiting factors when pushing performance. Everything else in most reasonable well balanced and ventilated setups is often going to have at least 20C of headroom.

    Originally Posted by Dural View Post (Source)
    You are more likely to see positive pressure in the case too which as you'll know you want to avoid.
    You'll want positive pressure if your intakes are filtered.

    Several of my systems have no exhaust fans at all. I just open them up in the area I want air to leave, and intake air through what needs to be coldest.

    Originally Posted by Dural View Post (Source)
    An interesting experiment is to connect a duct to your CPU fan inlet side from outside the case, you'll see a drop of 3 or 4 degrees, you'll never achieve just using inlet fans but demonstrates why you should be dumping hot air out as quickly and directly as possible.
    Reverse also applies. I want the coldest air possible cooling the hottest running components.

    Originally Posted by Dural View Post (Source)
    other than components which run cooler tend to last longer, especially platter drives.
    Optimal temperature for a mechanical HDD is 35-45C. Below 30C failure rates increase rapidly. This likely has to do with the viscosity of the lubricants used...too cold, viscosity climbs, which means more wear.

    https://static.googleusercontent.com...k_failures.pdf -- section 3.4.

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