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Thread: Not just Powerplay actions should be restricted to Open!

  1. #181
    Originally Posted by CMDR MadRaptor View Post (Source)
    So much yes in this....can you taste the yes!
    And the game will die if that happens. The BGS will become a ghost town with no movement apart from the player factions.

    That would be a travesty.

  2. #182
    Originally Posted by Clifra Jones View Post (Source)
    If NPCs were an actual challenge and if NPC actually put up some resistance to PP/BGS/UA activities then I would not have any issue with the current "All modes are equal" status. But they are not. For those in highly engineered Big 3 ships NPC and nothing but an annoyance.

    NPCs should have:
    1. Engineered weapons and modules
    2. Combat skills on par with the human players.
    3. play by the same rules we to
    a. Weapons must be retracted to charge FSD
    b. Chaff reload times are equal
    c. no unlimited chaff
    d. etc.,etc.,etc

    But that is another argument that will never go through.

    I'd be all for upping the npc difficulty to balance out the solo PP'rs, but, I think one of the dev remarks on that were that it wouldn't just up the difficulty in solo but all around as well and that wouldn't be good. However my remark to that would be, people in OPEN are all about being the best and and telling others to "Git Gud" so why not let them git gud against tougher NPC's. So what if they start to complain that NPS are too tough....GIT GUD!!!!

  3. #183
    Originally Posted by CMDR MadRaptor View Post (Source)
    I'd be all for upping the npc difficulty to balance out the solo PP'rs, but, I think one of the dev remarks on that were that it wouldn't just up the difficulty in solo but all around as well and that wouldn't be good. However my remark to that would be, people in OPEN are all about being the best and and telling others to "Git Gud" so why not let them git gud against tougher NPC's. So what if they start to complain that NPS are too tough....GIT GUD!!!!
    Open Mode players had no issues with the increased difficulty that SJAs improved AI offered. It was welcomed pretty much universally (apart from the bugged Engineer weapons that needed taking out of the equation)

  4. #184
    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    And the game will die if that happens. The BGS will become a ghost town with no movement apart from the player factions.

    That would be a travesty.
    I was yessing the meme. It gave me a good laugh and I imagine FDEV just banning everybody to open. I definitely don't agree with anything in this thread.

  5. #185
    Originally Posted by Goose4291 View Post (Source)
    Open Mode players had no issues with the increased difficulty that SJAs improved AI offered. It was welcomed pretty much universally (apart from the bugged Engineer weapons that needed taking out of the equation)
    Oh I'm sure it wouldn't bother you guys...i was mentioning that because of this little nugget

    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...=1#post5693111

    (summary of the part I'm taking about)
    However, cranking up difficulty will not make Open more enticing. Conflict between actual people, even within a game, is a very different matter to taking on NPC ships. It has many psychological and social elements that would otherwise not be present. Incidentally, increasing the difficulty of NPC engagements would also make Open harder rather than fairer, so there's also that.

    that's why I said what I said. Personally I think if upping the difficulty could help solve this issue then do it. Or at least find a way to up the difficulty of those pledged...I don't know. I'm more for finding a balance than restriction

  6. #186
    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    Powerplay is entirely player driven, the BGS isn't. Only players can undermine. Only players can fortify. It's on players. Not bots. BGS != powerplay.

    Frontier are not moving BGS to open only; just the commander driven powerplay portion. Because if the entire thing is player only, then it makes little sense in a mode, where there are no other commanders; it's redundant, and creates a differentiated experience. Frontier have essentially just admitted this.
    It is actually the Mahon PowerPlay community that raised the issue of bots because it affects their PowerPlay...

    More to the point, BGS is entirely driven by player action. Only players can drop trade, bounties, bonds, exploration data, run missions for factions, and if none such get done in a particular 24 hr cycle in a particular system, the system doesn't move. Both PP and BGS only move on player actions.

    Where I agree there is a difference is that PP is meant to be direct PvP, whereas BGS is PvEvP, i.e. you by definition play other groups not by attacking them directly, but through the environment. PvP has no value for the BGS (but still can be a lot of fun!)

    And it takes some serious stones to own your mistakes, even when they had the best of intentions. And they're trying to make good. This is exactly what people have asked Frontier to do. Good on 'em.

    Lastly, people fly in open, because there are other people. That isn't a fault condition to resolve.
    I agree entirely with this. This was a pretty brave move - and while it doesn't affect me in the slightest, it makes me hopeful again for the future and other features.

  7. #187
    Originally Posted by AzraelDirge View Post (Source)
    ....You're also objectively wrong about PvP and BGS, PvP kills on clean pilots hit the influence of the top faction in a system.
    True.

    But negated by a single bounty drop, or something like 2-3 systems of exploration.

    In the time you kill one clean PvP ship, I'd have run missions, dumped explo, bounties, etc. and on next tick you'll be well behind.

    Those who put artificial limits on themselves for RP or honor reasons, lose in the BGS. If you can't beat my transaction volume, you lose. It is really that simple.

  8. #188
    Originally Posted by AzraelDirge View Post (Source)
    . Additionally, killing an opposing CMDR in a CZ grants a much larger influence hit in the war than killing an NPC.
    No. It really doesn't

  9. #189
    Originally Posted by AzraelDirge View Post (Source)
    Combat bonds increase your faction's influence, enemy deaths in a CZ decreases theirs. I worked for quite a while with an extremely good BGS team, and they heavily emphasized the need not to die in a CZ during a war, as it would undo a lot of your work.
    The not-dying instruction is so you can deliver your bonds and cash them. No bonds cached, no gain.

    There is no loss transaction in the CZ on a killed ship.

  10. #190
    It would be better if there were just two modes, open and closed/solo. The squadrons can take the place of private (make them larger). Seriously, have the focus on content in the game instead all this messing around trying to please everyone with crud look nice stuff.

  11. #191
    Originally Posted by AzraelDirge View Post (Source)
    This is what I mean by projecting your lack of integrity.


    That's twice you have assumed I've not got integrity, yet you know NOTHING about me, except what I post in this forum, and now you're saying I'm being condescending when you have no idea of what I'm feeling when I'm writing.

    Who's the one doing the projecting here mate?

    If the best argument you have is "you have no integrity", which you also can't justify or prove, you'd best step aside and let the big boys talk. <<<< that was an example of me being condescending just so you know what it looks like.


    Originally Posted by AzraelDirge View Post (Source)
    You assume all people think and act the same as you, and will cheat and cut corners when given the chance in the same way. I've seen in real life as well, where people that steal try to excuse it by saying "Everyone does it, it's no big deal". The condescending tone doesn't exactly lend you credibility either.
    Err I'm pretty sure that is what YOU are doing too, assuming that EVERY SINGLE ONE of your faction members are 100% upstanding honest etc etc players who would never cut a corner here or there for a quick gain that harms no-one; and you can beleive that all day long, but as I said unless you WERE THERE for every action, you can PROVE nothing.

    It's all talk and no proof. There is no other answer available, the rest is just an opinion - just as mine is, except for one factor, my opinion is based on KNOWN HUMAN BEHAVIOUR, in a game where undercutting is both easy to do and availaible to all.

    Basically what you are claiming is that your faction was the ONLY ONE, that was 100% honorable, honest and played by the rules of agreed engagement, even when you have already admitted the opposing faction did not - give me a break, this is gaming on the internet, look around.

    We are not talking about Knights of the realm when chivalry, piety and honour was just as much the currency of life as money - we are talking about ANONYMOUS GAME PLAYERS, on the INTERNET..... do you TRULY think you KNOW THEM?

    Among any group of internet game players (or in sports, business or pretty much anything else), when there are situations for cutting corners that will give an advantage, some WILL do it.

    That's not a projection of lack of integrity or being condescending, that's just a fact of human nature, and on the internet where it's anonymous, doubly so.

    Originally Posted by Mangal Oemie View Post (Source)
    Those who put artificial limits on themselves for RP or honor reasons, lose in the BGS. If you can't beat my transaction volume, you lose. It is really that simple.
    THIS ^^^^ is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You're trying to claim that players would INTENTIONALLY lose in order to save "RP honour" in a game that DOES NOT REWARD HONOR.

    You say you were a MID LEVEL leader - how do you know what was going on when you were not online - history often shows that "top brass" don't tell the lower ranks 100% of EVERYTHING that goes on, because they don't NEED to know and in some cases it might hurt moral if they did know.

    If you want to beleve all this time you've been part of a 100% honest and upstanding faction, with no members cutting corners here or there on occasion - whether sanctioned or not - so it doesn't shake your faith and helps you sleep at night, so be it, but you still can't PROVE IT. <<<< that's ANOTHER example of my being condescending.

    Edit - here's a question - how do you know that the enemy factions response of undercutting, despite agreeing not to, was not a retaliation response to members of your faction undercutting first?

    You don't, do you, only what the leadership tells you, a mid level leader. You think you were 100% clued in on everything? You weren't.

  12. #192
    Originally Posted by Mad Mike View Post (Source)
    Dont get me wrong, I am not going all in here and saying That90skid was right, but I am surprised he is not here gloating that this is proof that his prediction is coming true.
    Why would they? This isn't something to gloat. It's something to recognise as a challenge that the developer has to solve. We all want a great game, we're not all ever going to get what we want. For the record, I don't believe Sandro's changes should extend this change to anything other than powerplay. The end. They meant well, man, they did. Sometimes it doesn't work out.

    BGS stays as it is; that's a pretty seperate beast and and an entirely different challenge.

    The developer has recognised a flaw, Mike; we can't tell them "no" at times just becase it may not be great. I have concerns, too, and I fly in open pretty much 24/7. But there is nothing gained by refusing this outright.

    Modules need to be available at an additional source (that is available via solo) imho; this removes quite a bit of module tourism. Which leaves really, those who actually want to fight for a cause, in whichever fashion suits them. With the rest of the changes proposed, PP gains some serious replay and engagement factors it's never, ever had.

    Originally Posted by AzraelDirge View Post (Source)
    Additionally, killing an opposing CMDR in a CZ grants a much larger influence hit in the war than killing an NPC.
    Citation needed.

  13. #193


    Elite: My Side, Your Side

    It's the only way that will ever really work. A complete split of Open mode into its own realm. Accounts in Open do not transfer out of Open. Accounts made in Solo/PG do not transfer out of Solo/PG. BGS for Open is only affected by Open. Power Standings in Open are only effected by Open. Power Standings and BGS of Solo/PG are only effected by Solo/PG.

    Probably much easier to implement that trying to pry an integrated component out of the game as it is, and won't mean 1.25 years of fixing all the bugs that crawl out, so win-win-win.

  14. #194
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    Elite: My Side, Your Side
    They are not going to split the universe in this fashion; that's essentially offline 2.0 and it's been five years.

    Probably much easier to implement that trying to pry an integrated component out of the game as it is, and won't mean 1.25 years of fixing all the bugs that crawl out, so win-win-win.
    Citation needed. How do you know that's easier, than simply defining where actions can occur?

  15. #195
    Originally Posted by Abil Midena View Post (Source)
    I almost don't want to do this, but...

    "the BGS is about PVE".
    - No, its not, not even a little. Those that know of the BGS, or simply can't spell BGS, still impact the BGS. They are people, commaders, NOT NPC's. They are most definitely not the 'environment'.
    - There are no NPC's running missions for the other factions in your system. NOTHING the NPC's do impact the BGS.
    Yes it is about PvE. Player help create a Dynamic and moving environment for other players. It's a very clever system. Just needs some refining.

    Originally Posted by Abil Midena View Post (Source)
    "player factions is all about indirect PvP by doing PvE with a tiny smattering of PvP if want to, but direct PvP is very inefficient way to play the BGS. It won't work in open only"
    - performing actions to influence the BGS are done by PEOPLE. You may experience no direct contact with other people, but you are a person, and anyone else working the BGS are people. Guess what that's called? PVP. BTW, PKP is Player Killing Player. While what you call "direct PVP", which really means PKP, may be inefficient, it can't be done from PG/Solo. But think about if BGS goes open only. The next time you try to Bounty farm at a nav or res, there may be someone there that tries to stop you. Or in a CZ. Or in supercruise while you're trading/mission running. That "direct PVP" or PKP will absolutely make a large impact on your BGS efforts, won't it?
    Not as much impact if you concentrate on NPCs were you know exactly what faction they are working for. The best way to combat people doing missions is by doing missions, not PvP. Also it is impossible to know if someone is doing a mission or not against your faction. Going to a res site, it is much more effective killing the wanted NPC's then spending 30 minute or so trying to kill a commander in with their Uber shielded and Uber hull ships, or they are so fast you can't catch them.

    NPC's and missions is by far the best way to manipulate the BGS and that is PvE or PwPvE with other players making dynamic changes to the BGS as they play and interact with it.

    Originally Posted by Abil Midena View Post (Source)
    "it won't work in Open only". What? Why not? Do you mean there will be less BGS impact from players in PG/Solo if it's open only? Yes then. But the players in open will still be causing changes to the BGS whether they intend to or not. Only FD knows how much this may deaden the BGS/states.
    Because large area will become static and a large population will just go. Like everyone in mobius for instance. It would be a disaster. The BGS needs all the modes to thrive and change and be dynamic.

    Originally Posted by Abil Midena View Post (Source)
    "CGs are about people working together for a common cause". Really? What about those that show up to stop the haulers, or fight the Bounty hunters? What do you call that at a CG? So CG's are really about both PWP and PKP. The "environment" has nothting to do with it, at all.
    From what I can tell people kill other ships in open at CGs just because they can. They are not necessarily against the CG, they just want to kill other commanders. Community goals are about people working together as a community to achieve a goal using the environment. How is that not PvE or PwPvE. If people want the spice of being hunted by a bunch of nutters, thats up to them. I have done so in an unshielded T6. It was fun.

    Originally Posted by Abil Midena View Post (Source)
    "The BGS was around before player factions was a thing." So? People working the BGS were around before player factions too. What's your point?
    The point is, is that the BGS is not about player factions or controlling factions, even though we can do that.

    Originally Posted by Abil Midena View Post (Source)
    "Also there is no way for you to know that they are running BGS missions.." Did you read about Squadrons/tags? If I am working Faction A, and some dude pops into my instance with a Faction B tag, you can bet I'll at least say "yo, what's up?". What I'm saying is being able to see that someone is for a particular faction is coming. Same as, guess what, PP.
    That may come and you are assuming that everyone will have those tags. They may not.

    Originally Posted by Abil Midena View Post (Source)
    I decided to make this post, even though I don't think you're ever going to admit anything, so maybe others will see reality. And let me say again that I hope the BGS doens't go 'open only' because I don't like the basic idea of forcing people to play in a particular mode, among other reasons.
    I don't need to. I have been doing the BGS since the game has launched and know exactly what it is about and what it is meant for. You obviously do not.

    The BGS is not about player factions. If you want that gameplay, powerplay is the way to go. It's mechanics are especially designed for PvP.

    The BGS is all about players creating a moving and dynamic galaxy for other players to enjoy. Whether you are in open, a PG or solo or a member of a player faction is irrelevant.

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