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Thread: Dear solo players...

  1. #91
    Originally Posted by Stigbob View Post (Source)
    You tell em Jason, dev bashing was only OK when the open only advocates did it constantly till yesterday.
    I really need a rep button.

  2. #92
    Y’all need a perspective button first. LOL.

  3. #93
    Originally Posted by fuub View Post (Source)
    ... the whole game has always been handicapped to keep everything equal between solo and open, don't you think it is fair that just one feature which is pvp focus can exist only in open and finally enhance the gameplay?
    No I don't - the game probably only exists because of the support provided by the original crowd-funders and alpha/beta-backers. Mode equivalence was what we backed, and from a personal standpoint, something I've continued to support FDev with financially. The proposal to make PP Open-only is just the thin edge of a wedge. The Open-Only PP momentum apparently gained on this forum appears to me to be driven by gankers who find their activities stifled by the new C&P and are just looking for a way to grief again.

  4. #94
    Originally Posted by CMDR EDGEL0RD View Post (Source)
    So everyone have to play the same as they do or be handicapped?
    No. Just opt to play in Open mode.
    The ones forced to "play as they do" are the ones losing Powerplay from their preferred mode.

    More choices = better product.

    If the developers want improved Powerplay mechanics, that's good. More consumer use of the programming work that went into the effort is a positive thing.
    Restricting it to one mode means simply that even less people will use it. How popular it it right now?

    Getting less people to use your product is bad.

  5. #95
    Originally Posted by KevinMillican View Post (Source)
    No I don't - the game probably only exists because of the support provided by the original crowd-funders and alpha/beta-backers. Mode equivalence was what we backed, and from a personal standpoint, something I've continued to support FDev with financially. The proposal to make PP Open-only is just the thin edge of a wedge. The Open-Only PP momentum apparently gained on this forum appears to me to be driven by gankers who find their activities stifled by the new C&P and are just looking for a way to grief again.
    You couldn’t be more absurdly wrong. Have you seen the Focused Feedback thread? Ganking simply doesn’t inspire that level of excitement.

  6. #96
    Originally Posted by Phisto Sobanii View Post (Source)
    Y’all need a perspective button first. LOL.
    Not as much as you need a common sense button.

    Why buy a game suited for PvE and complain about lack of PvP, talk about daft.

  7. #97
    Originally Posted by fuub View Post (Source)
    ... the whole game has always been handicapped to keep everything equal between solo and open
    FALSE.

    The quote being bandied about lately is NOT "all modes are equal" it's "all play modes are equally valid choices" (link). This statement by MB does NOT mean that the modes are balanced, at all, although this is a common misconception. Rather, it means that players should always be free to choose a mode based on their differences and not be made to feel bad about it. Sadly, experience has shown that this ideal is rarely upheld on these forums.

  8. #98
    Originally Posted by fuub View Post (Source)
    ... the whole game has always been handicapped to keep everything equal between solo and open, don't you think it is fair that just one feature which is pvp focus can exist only in open and finally enhance ...
    Arena mode or CQC is a whole mode just for PVP that already exists. Your premise is entirely false. PVP is the only play style that is accommodated that way.(edited for clarity)

    Proposal:
    Why not develop CQC to accommodate ships we own, so that we can have the full game experience in PVP? If the combat is the thing, why not develop it as a sport within the game?
    We can pay a fee to bring our ship into the arena, just as we transfer ships elsewhere. There can be gambling on outcomes, development of odds tables, etc?

    Eg: I bet a million credits I can take your FDL with my engineered Cobra, you agree to put up a million, and the game adjusts our payouts based on the odds it holds internally. Say past data on our performances, and a factor based on the cost differential between ships.

  9. #99
    Originally Posted by Phisto Sobanii View Post (Source)
    Y’all need a perspective button first. LOL.

    Have great perspective, sadly some are blinded by the chance that something could be open only that they are losing their minds. For proof all you need to do is read many of the comments on that thread. Even with Sandro repeating and stressing "It is PP only" there are rabid comments for ALL for Open with Solo/PG not able to do anything. Before all modes WERE equal, all could affect the BGS equally. If this goes through then no, one mode has influence while the other two can do nothing about it. Major powers and minor powers all at the whim of one mode.

  10. #100
    Originally Posted by nrage View Post (Source)
    FALSE.

    The quote being bandied about lately is NOT "all modes are equal" it's "all play modes are equally valid choices" (link). This statement by MB does NOT mean that the modes are balanced, at all, although this is a common misconception. Rather, it means that players should always be free to choose a mode based on their differences and not be made to feel bad about it. Sadly, experience has shown that this ideal is rarely upheld on these forums.
    So you either play full PvE or handicap yourself by staying in Open out of your own volition or kill your immersion by switching modes ten times per game session.
    Everything is fine?

    While this "equality" might and should mean balance, in fact we are having plain equal treatment for different things. With status quo leaving maximum efficiency in the casual PvE player comfort zone, and thus rendering everything above such skill level irrelevant, PvP included. And it is hypocritical to state otherwise.

    Person which will keep himself to Open only IN EVERY OUTCOME will have less abilities than doing same activities in PG/Solo in the long run. While having greater risks and having to apply more effort to avoid damages from such risks.

    Such situation have no reasons to exist, other than carebears' whining about recieving damage to the comfort zone.


    Originally Posted by Mouse View Post (Source)
    Have great perspective, sadly some are blinded by the chance that something could be open only that they are losing their minds. For proof all you need to do is read many of the comments on that thread. Even with Sandro repeating and stressing "It is PP only" there are rabid comments for ALL for Open with Solo/PG not able to do anything. Before all modes WERE equal, all could affect the BGS equally. If this goes through then no, one mode has influence while the other two can do nothing about it. Major powers and minor powers all at the whim of one mode.
    For PP, Open only is a necessity for it not to stay a farmville competition. If you can say otherwise, please present a concept which will truly equalise PvP and PvE efforts. And remember that any higher efficiency in PvE mode, including efficiency in getting personal bonuses, will result in PP staying as PvE outlet.

    This is not about screwing PvE people with something. This is about getting some meaningful PvP activity at least.

  11. #101
    Originally Posted by Robin of Spiritwood View Post (Source)
    Arena mode or CQC is a whole mode just for PVP that already exists. Your premise is entirely false. PVP is the only play style that is accommodated that way.(edited for clarity)

    Proposal:
    Why not develop CQC to accommodate ships we own, so that we can have the full game experience in PVP? If the combat is the thing, why not develop it as a sport within the game?
    We can pay a fee to bring our ship into the arena, just as we transfer ships elsewhere. There can be gambling on outcomes, development of odds tables, etc?

    Eg: I bet a million credits I can take your FDL with my engineered Cobra, you agree to put up a million, and the game adjusts our payouts based on the odds it holds internally. Say past data on our performances, and a factor based on the cost differential between ships.
    Such Quake 3 Arena In Spaceships game cannot result in meaningful pvp with player driven "narrative". And this is what PvP in MMO needs the most, and not just some competitive Cutter measurment tool.

  12. #102
    Originally Posted by CMDR EDGEL0RD View Post (Source)
    For PP, Open only is a necessity for it not to stay a farmville competition. If you can say otherwise, please present a concept which will truly equalise PvP and PvE efforts. And remember that any higher efficiency in PvE mode, including efficiency in getting personal bonuses, will result in PP staying as PvE outlet.

    This is not about screwing PvE people with something. This is about getting some meaningful PvP activity at least.
    I and many others have stated many times that we want PVP to be meaningful. Even allowing merits, BUT stripping PP from the other modes as well as locking it so that unless you do PP if a system is in a PP zone there is not much that can be done is changing that all modes can do something to ONE mode does something. How is that hard to understand?

    A friend said it even better.


    "From what I have read:


    1. If they change the PP benefit from MF to only the control system, this would benefit BGSers, as only PP control systems (Priva) would be no-go systems for MF that don't line up with the PP faction (Fed/Imp/All). This is kind of a good change. Using the Bcats as the example, Priva would be given up, but the other systems BCats are in would be of no use to the PP folks, so you wouldn't have to worry about them.


    HOWEVER...


    2. They are also changing missions so they give PP benefits just by doing them. So if you think it was a huge problem before with BGS unaware grinders (BUGS) messing up BGS work without even knowing or caring, it's going to be 10x worse, since the PP horde will be added to the existing BUGS, since they will now want to run missions for their PP group.


    AND...


    #2 is double bad for BCats because they are in ALD space (empire) and BCats are Independent. #2 is only granted if the MF you do the mission for is aligned with your PP faction, in this case, Empire. So they would not only mess up BGS work, they would benefit Empire MF's and hurt non Empire MF's.


    So the upshot from #1, #2, is that for the BCats, things will be WORSE than now, which is bad. You'd have to give up on Priva, and the other systems would be a mess from PP mission grinders.


    As far as Open Only for PP...


    This would have no impact on the BCats. You can still do everything you want to support the BCats through the BGS in any mode you want.


    HOWEVER...


    Follow me here...MB said "all modes are an equally valid choice" in 2015, but Sandro has suggested 2 yrs ago in March 2016 to add "significant open only bonus" to PP. Did Sandro agree or think the modes are equal choices? Nope. Not only that, here he is again, more than doubling down on his idea by now saying not just a bonus, but "Only Open for PP". His reason? "Reasoning: We’ve saved the biggest change for last, as making Powerplay Open only goes way beyond the remit of a tweak. We’ve seen this topic discussed many times and we think it’s time we addressed it directly to get as much quality feedback as possible." This is basically saying, "people were whining, so we're changing things to accommodate them".


    Ok, now fast forward to the day after the open only is implemented for PP. And remember all the people in the focused feedback thread that are ALREADY clamoring for Open Only BGS. Add intensified whining with the support of now being able to say "...but, but, you made PP open only, so now do it for the BGS", and "the BGS is pvp centric because you have to contend with other players that 'do stuff' to support their MF that is in the same system as where you are trying to BGS", and you have your answer.


    What does FD do? Simple. They make BGS open only as well. You can't avoid that logic. And at that time, you can give up on BGS work, unless you fly a fully engineered PKP machine 100% of the time, and are a skilled PKPer, since you will now be FORCED to play in open if you want to BGS."


    Interesting thing is for PP in it's current form Priva was lost to PP grinders for the faction originally set up there. Yet at no point did the players who supported that faction (myself included) complain that PP or PVPers were ruining the game because they took the system and that it was unfair that players in solo or any other mode that couldn't be seen was working in the system. They just try their best. Yet IF PP goes only Open and stays connected to the BGS... it drastically affects the BGS and the other modes can do nothing to counter it unlike how it is now when again.. ALL modes can counter each other as it was intended for the game.

    THIS is why the Open only part of PP is a bad idea. I actually like the rest of it...

  13. #103
    Originally Posted by Mouse View Post (Source)
    I and many others have stated many times that we want PVP to be meaningful. Even allowing merits, BUT stripping PP from the other modes as well as locking it so that unless you do PP if a system is in a PP zone there is not much that can be done is changing that all modes can do something to ONE mode does something. How is that hard to understand?

    A friend said it even better.


    "From what I have read:


    1. If they change the PP benefit from MF to only the control system, this would benefit BGSers, as only PP control systems (Priva) would be no-go systems for MF that don't line up with the PP faction (Fed/Imp/All). This is kind of a good change. Using the Bcats as the example, Priva would be given up, but the other systems BCats are in would be of no use to the PP folks, so you wouldn't have to worry about them.


    HOWEVER...


    2. They are also changing missions so they give PP benefits just by doing them. So if you think it was a huge problem before with BGS unaware grinders (BUGS) messing up BGS work without even knowing or caring, it's going to be 10x worse, since the PP horde will be added to the existing BUGS, since they will now want to run missions for their PP group.


    AND...


    #2 is double bad for BCats because they are in ALD space (empire) and BCats are Independent. #2 is only granted if the MF you do the mission for is aligned with your PP faction, in this case, Empire. So they would not only mess up BGS work, they would benefit Empire MF's and hurt non Empire MF's.


    So the upshot from #1, #2, is that for the BCats, things will be WORSE than now, which is bad. You'd have to give up on Priva, and the other systems would be a mess from PP mission grinders.


    As far as Open Only for PP...


    This would have no impact on the BCats. You can still do everything you want to support the BCats through the BGS in any mode you want.


    HOWEVER...


    Follow me here...MB said "all modes are an equally valid choice" in 2015, but Sandro has suggested 2 yrs ago in March 2016 to add "significant open only bonus" to PP. Did Sandro agree or think the modes are equal choices? Nope. Not only that, here he is again, more than doubling down on his idea by now saying not just a bonus, but "Only Open for PP". His reason? "Reasoning: We’ve saved the biggest change for last, as making Powerplay Open only goes way beyond the remit of a tweak. We’ve seen this topic discussed many times and we think it’s time we addressed it directly to get as much quality feedback as possible." This is basically saying, "people were whining, so we're changing things to accommodate them".


    Ok, now fast forward to the day after the open only is implemented for PP. And remember all the people in the focused feedback thread that are ALREADY clamoring for Open Only BGS. Add intensified whining with the support of now being able to say "...but, but, you made PP open only, so now do it for the BGS", and "the BGS is pvp centric because you have to contend with other players that 'do stuff' to support their MF that is in the same system as where you are trying to BGS", and you have your answer.


    What does FD do? Simple. They make BGS open only as well. You can't avoid that logic. And at that time, you can give up on BGS work, unless you fly a fully engineered PKP machine 100% of the time, and are a skilled PKPer, since you will now be FORCED to play in open if you want to BGS."


    Interesting thing is for PP in it's current form Priva was lost to PP grinders for the faction originally set up there. Yet at no point did the players who supported that faction (myself included) complain that PP or PVPers were ruining the game because they took the system and that it was unfair that players in solo or any other mode that couldn't be seen was working in the system. They just try their best. Yet IF PP goes only Open and stays connected to the BGS... it drastically affects the BGS and the other modes can do nothing to counter it unlike how it is now when again.. ALL modes can counter each other as it was intended for the game.

    THIS is why the Open only part of PP is a bad idea. I actually like the rest of it...
    PvP cargo cutter requires 800kk space peso, engineering and three 1400kk engineered cutters for escort. And the still can fail, or they will lose time at very least.
    For PvE, you need D-rated T9s. For each of wing members. And they can fail only if they sleep cause of boredom.

    I ask again, how do you wanna balance this out? Reduce effect of PvE efforts by 99%? Including that for personal progression benefits?
    And if PvE efforts would stay even a bit more effective, this whole affair would stay PvE. Because why try harder for the same result?

    And PvE people are not moved from BGS. They still would have way higher efficiency there.

  14. #104
    Originally Posted by CMDR EDGEL0RD View Post (Source)
    PvP cargo cutter requires 800kk space peso, engineering and three 1400kk engineered cutters for escort. And the still can fail, or they will lose time at very least.
    For PvE, you need D-rated T9s. For each of wing members. And they can fail only if they sleep cause of boredom.

    I ask again, how do you wanna balance this out? Reduce effect of PvE efforts by 99%? Including that for personal progression benefits?
    And if PvE efforts would stay even a bit more effective, this whole affair would stay PvE. Because why try harder for the same result?

    And PvE people are not moved from BGS. They still would have way higher efficiency there.

    Balanced out PVP can get merits.. then no matter what you do it affects. And I'm sorry but no, PVE's won't have higher efficiency, it has already been seen in some PPcentric systems. Moving PP to purely Open makes a "perceived" imbalance into a real actual imbalance

  15. #105
    Originally Posted by Mouse View Post (Source)
    Balanced out PVP can get merits.. then no matter what you do it affects. And I'm sorry but no, PVE's won't have higher efficiency, it has already been seen in some PPcentric systems. Moving PP to purely Open makes a "perceived" imbalance into a real actual imbalance
    Bigger efforts having lesser effect would not work. Again.

    And do you think PP states will change so merrily with all the struggle which would be present? BGS would still be predominantly PvE.

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