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Thread: Removing Long-Standing Features Is Not Okay

  1. #1

    Removing Long-Standing Features Is Not Okay

    I don't remember Power Play ever being pitched as a "PvP mode" when it was initially in development nor when it was initially released in year 1. Thus, it has always served as a means to pledge to major "powers" of the bubble and take part in a greater narrative/power struggle. For many, myself included, Power Play has also served as a means of supporting the Federation, Empire or Alliance at a more official capacity. To say that Power Play purely exists as a PvP mode is outright false, especially when you consider that all of the current activities required to gain merit with any given power is best done through PvE. Yes, the door is open for PvP to occur with rivaling powers, however that door has always existed in all aspects of Open Play. Those who want the risk and those seeking interaction with other players have always had the option to remain in Open.

    Fundamentally speaking, Power Play is one of the longer standing features of Elite and while a lot of players don't bother with it anymore, there are still those of us that do. If Frontier were to just up and remove Power Play from Solo and Private Groups, it sets a very bad precedent and is a first step on a very slippery slope. Today they may say that, "Oh, it will only be with Power Play, we promise!" but remember, years ago when faced with people complaining about Solo/PG participation they said something along the lines of, "We're going to keep all game modes equal." If they take PP out of Solo/PG, why exactly should I believe that the BGS won't soon follow? Or perhaps Community Goals?

    Elite: Dangerous is already somewhat of a content starved game, with very little in the ways of new types of gameplay being added recently. With so much focus on fixing what's already here and implementation of yet even more group-oriented features, anyone sticking to Solo is even less likely to remain with this game once features start being pulled outright from Solo play. Believe me, I'm all for playing this game with friends and find it as enjoyable as anyone. I'm not arguing against group-oriented features being added and in fact I fully support it. However, this game is 3 years in and most of those whom I have played this game with have already quit from what many of us perceive as both a lack of new, interesting content while a lot of the existing content feels as if it was a place-holder (I'm looking at you, RES sites).

  2. #2
    Solo/PG is a gaping hole in the integrity of Powerplay in that there is no way opposing forces can counter it. There is no way to prevent the delivery of supplies, no way to shoot down commanders that are in undermining zones, no way to interdict prep haulers. It's far too often that people - even people who mostly play in Open mind you - will say "I'm going to switch to Solo to deliver this huge haul of supplies to avoid those commanders patrolling system x". That is an exploitation of the (admittedly incomplete) game design. From my perspective, by moving PP to open-only, FD is closing that loophole.

    That said, I also think there are ways to compromise to so that solo/pg players can still be pledged and contribute, mainly through the proposed Mission changes. If Missions can contribute to PP success, in whatever form that will take, then that's an activity that can be done in solo with no reasonable expectation that the other sides should be able to counter it, except by running missions themselves. Which makes it an ideal solo/pg activity.

  3. #3
    Hey Op,

    No one is taking powerplay away from you. THUS you can still play it but on a level playing field.

    It's the increased challenge you have the issue with. Everything else you have posted, is just padding.

    Powderpanic
    The Voice of Griefing

  4. #4
    It is not ok to remove long-standng content, especially when they don't have to. There is no necessity to make any feature open only in order to promote or improve PvP. There have been many suggestion on how to Add to what we have to bring interest, and impact, without segregating content.

    Originally Posted by Powderpanic View Post (Source)
    Hey Op,

    No one is taking powerplay away from you. THUS you can still play it but on a level playing field.

    It's the increased challenge you have the issue with. Everything else you have posted, is just padding.

    Powderpanic
    The Voice of Griefing
    That is exactly the argument I make about the current situation. If you see a benefit to playing PP in Solo/PG you have that choice. Improve PvP by improving PvP, not by simply offering something for the PvPers to own.

  5. #5
    Wings are segregated. Multicrew is segregated. Not following the logic on that one. Also, no content has been removed, but requirements may be changed.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by lefty1117 View Post (Source)
    Solo/PG is a gaping hole in the integrity of Powerplay in that there is no way opposing forces can counter it. There is no way to prevent the delivery of supplies, no way to shoot down commanders that are in undermining zones, no way to interdict prep haulers.
    Actually there are alternative types of delivery that counter it - nothing to stop anyone doing that.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by KevinMillican View Post (Source)
    Actually there are alternative types of delivery that counter it - nothing to stop anyone doing that.
    You nailed it. Power Play is suddenly being boiled down to little more than an excuse to shoot up other players in PvP. If you look at the PP description that is on the ED webpage right now, it was never designed to be solely a shooting gallery. Rather, it was always designed to be a multi-faceted strategy game that allowed for players to help expand their chosen power's influence via multiple means, from logistics to, yes, combat.

    Players can choose to pledge allegiance to one of several galactic Powers. Powers control multiple star systems and offer players valuable perks for their support. Every player influences their chosen Power's weekly tactical decisions with a degree of influence based on their standing within that power.


    Each week Powers offer their supporters a choice of actions. Which star system should we conquer? With whom should we negotiate? Which side do we take in an impending war? Players vote, a goal is selected and missions are generated in support of that goal.

    By completing missions, players drive their Power's expansion. Players can further support their chosen Power with freeform activities and emergent play.
    Now, though, we are being sold the idea that it was always just about combat. Not true.

    What is more, if PP is so much better as an Open-only PvP combat environment, it makes you wonder why so few players - if we take the PvP players at their word - engaged in Open but rather chose to play it in solo. Seems like a disconnect somewhere.

    This "Open-only" proposal seems more and more like a solution in search of a problem. By all means allow the PvP crowd to play PP in Open and shoot each other up to their heart's content. But don't force solo players to engage with PP on that combat-oriented level if we don't want to. Alter the mechanics if you have to - such as giving Open players a weighted advantage for their actions - but don't lock out an entire class of players just to cater to the minority PvP crowd.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by KevinMillican View Post (Source)
    Actually there are alternative types of delivery that counter it - nothing to stop anyone doing that.
    You are quite right, which is what happens right now in fact, and is in large part why powerplay is such an atrocious grind. The proposals outlined are supposed to be an improvement to the current mechanics, one such improvement is to remove (at least hinder) the ability for almost risk free hauling of insane amounts of cargo, by allowing opposing player the ability to intercept, blockade, drive off. There will still be hauling, oh so much hauling, but at least with the proposed changes everybody has to do it in an environment where they can be seen and stopped.


    Timezones, instancing, platforms, blocking are all issues that need discussed, but not one of them is a reason NOT to make the changes. I am infinitely more likely to see an aussie player in open than a local player in solo.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by RooksBailey View Post (Source)
    You nailed it. Power Play is suddenly being boiled down to little more than an excuse to shoot up other players in PvP. If you look at the PP description that is on the ED webpage right now, it was never designed to be solely a shooting gallery. Rather, it was always designed to be a multi-faceted strategy game that allowed for players to help expand their chosen power's influence via multiple means, from logistics to, yes, combat.

    Now, though, we are being sold the idea that it was always just about combat. Not true.
    I think people may be taking this whole PvP thing out of context. Lets reference Sandro's blurb on the post:

    Powerplay is fundamentally about consensual player versus player conflict. We think that pretty much all of the systems and rules would benefit from being played out in Open only, as it would dramatically increase the chance of meeting other pledged players and being able to directly affect the outcomes of power struggles.
    In my mind, PvP in PP is not all about shooting each other... it is also versing other players by trying to outhaul each other or in some other cases, it is the haulers versus the conflict pilots as some instances of PP conflict require haulers to outhaul the amount of NPC ships being destroyed by enemy players. This proposed change to open would finally remove the barrier that protects pilots from this consensual player versus player system they signed up for. It just doesn't seem fair to me that PP players can sit in solo or PG and haul or shoot a ton without consequences. An example of this would be the Wulwula War some cycles ago, Hudson hauled 1.2 million merits (probably 90+% in open), while Grom hauled 1.5 million merits (95-99% in solo/PG). Basically in a PP where players can sit in solo/PG, whoever the biggest power is will win. Seems pretty bad if you ask me.


    What is more, if PP is so much better as an Open-only PvP combat environment, it makes you wonder why so few players - if we take the PvP players at their word - engaged in Open but rather chose to play it in solo. Seems like a disconnect somewhere.

    This "Open-only" proposal seems more and more like a solution in search of a problem. By all means allow the PvP crowd to play PP in Open and shoot each other up to their heart's content. But don't force solo players to engage with PP on that combat-oriented level if we don't want to. Alter the mechanics if you have to - such as giving Open players a weighted advantage for their actions - but don't lock out an entire class of players just to cater to the minority PvP crowd.
    As I said above, PvP doesn't necessarily mean combat, especially in PP. I can tell you that a majority of the organized power play groups play in Open, which includes the haulers. I've been hauling for Winters off and on for the past 2 years, all of which has come in open. The Open only PP is a solution to what I said above, but also a solution to another problem, 5th column. Being able to see pilots bringing cargo to a system that would hurt the power would help greatly. Therefore, this "Open-Only proposal is a solution to more than one problem in my opinion.

    Personally, I feel that PP should be Open-Only, but if Open play merits are weighted higher than Solo/PG merits, then I could accept that.

    TLDR: PvP mentioned is not just combat, but it encompasses all of the competition within the mode.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Alpha087 View Post (Source)
    I don't remember Power Play ever being pitched as a "PvP mode" when it was initially in development nor when it was initially released in year 1.
    I pretty much agree. Powerplay and the BGS are arguably part of the background game environment and changing the value and functionality of a product after it has been bought seems to me a little sneaky, not to mention possibly illegal.
    I dont really have a dog in this fight , even tho im pledged mahon and usually fly in open, i dont really care if solo players participate in PP either way, but if a company had sold me a product and then arbitrarily reduced its functionality, at the very least i would be asking for a refund.
    Does agreeing to the Frontier EULA sign away your rights under consumer protection laws?

  11. #11
    BaconofDeaath, the issue that some have is that they think that hardline PvP players define consensual as being where they can shoot at you.

    Obviously this perception is not right all the time but it isn't 100% wrong either and making Power Play participation a signal that you are consenting to being a target will upset a large number of players.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by aRJay View Post (Source)
    BaconofDeaath, the issue that some have is that they think that hardline PvP players define consensual as being where they can shoot at you.

    Obviously this perception is not right all the time but it isn't 100% wrong either and making Power Play participation a signal that you are consenting to being a target will upset a large number of players.
    Powerplay is fundamentally about consensual player versus player conflict. We think that pretty much all of the systems and rules would benefit from being played out in Open only, as it would dramatically increase the chance of meeting other pledged players and being able to directly affect the outcomes of power struggles.
    Think the hardline PvPers are basically going off their own beliefs and what Sandro said. And I agree with them. If you flag yourself and do activities against an enemy power then you should be able to be contended by enemy CMDRs. If you aren't doing PP though, you can go back to solo or PG where you won't be shot by enemy CMDRs, even with the pledge.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by m0rl0ck View Post (Source)
    I pretty much agree. Powerplay and the BGS are arguably part of the background game environment and changing the value and functionality of a product after it has been bought seems to me a little sneaky, not to mention possibly illegal.
    I dont really have a dog in this fight , even tho im pledged mahon and usually fly in open, i dont really care if solo players participate in PP either way, but if a company had sold me a product and then arbitrarily reduced its functionality, at the very least i would be asking for a refund.
    Does agreeing to the Frontier EULA sign away your rights under consumer protection laws?
    Dude, please ... Frontier is not under any legal threat from making this change. If they were, no MMO could exist today. Frontier has the right to change the content in their product. They own the software and you do not. You agree to this when you accept the EULA. In fact, as it relates to Powerplay, it was added well after launch and was never advertised as part of the product until they decided to develop it. It was not charged as a separate expansion so there's really no fraud argument to be had. Barking up the wrong tree on this one.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by lefty1117 View Post (Source)
    Dude, please ... Frontier is not under any legal threat from making this change. If they were, no MMO could exist today. Frontier has the right to change the content in their product. They own the software and you do not. You agree to this when you accept the EULA. In fact, as it relates to Powerplay, it was added well after launch and was never advertised as part of the product until they decided to develop it. It was not charged as a separate expansion so there's really no fraud argument to be had. Barking up the wrong tree on this one.
    I wonder about that. It wasnt an original feature, true, but if you bought horizons, the product was delivered and advertised with certain features including PP in all modes. It will be interesting to see if anyone challenges this.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Powderpanic View Post (Source)
    Hey Op,

    No one is taking powerplay away from you. THUS you can still play it but on a level playing field.

    It's the increased challenge you have the issue with. Everything else you have posted, is just padding.

    Powderpanic
    The Voice of Griefing
    Increased challenge?

    People simply want to drag haulers into open, from solo and PG. To kill them. In combat ships.

    THIS is challenge? Killing ships that are numerically inferior to your ship in combat ability? Killing newer commanders who just joined and thought PP was neat, with years of experience, and full ship engineering?

    A real challenge would be getting a hauler of your own, and out-hauling them. Taking a tough ship and killing a weaker ship is not challenge, it is ganking.

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