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Thread: Haulers are second class citizens, according to FDev

  1. #1

    Haulers are second class citizens, according to FDev

    The logic here is pretty simple:
    • Hauling players would be FORCED to play open and PVP.
    • PVP players cannot be forced to haul cargo.


    Why?

    Why is one style superior to the other? Why is someone in a non-combat ship supposed to be content for someone in a ship that designed to kill them?

    A PVP player could SUPER easily buy a Type9, put in cargo racks, and haul themselves, countering the oh-so-naughty people doing it in solo. Why don't they? Rhetorical question, I'll say exactly why.


    PVP players want to force cargo haulers to play PVP, engage in unequal fights in favor of the combat players, and be content for them. The cargo ships not only gain nothing by this interaction, they LOSE cargo investment and rebuys.

    And the PVP players are unwilling to change their playstyle. The cargo ships must change.

    Because people who don't want to PVP are second class citizens, apparently?

  2. #2
    Originally Posted by Teh Smoo View Post (Source)
    The logic here is pretty simple:
    • Hauling players would be FORCED to play open and PVP.
    • PVP players cannot be forced to haul cargo.


    Why?

    Why is one style superior to the other? Why is someone in a non-combat ship supposed to be content for someone in a ship that designed to kill them?

    A PVP player could SUPER easily buy a Type9, put in cargo racks, and haul themselves, countering the oh-so-naughty people doing it in solo. Why don't they? Rhetorical question, I'll say exactly why.


    PVP players want to force cargo haulers to play PVP, engage in unequal fights in favor of the combat players, and be content for them. The cargo ships not only gain nothing by this interaction, they LOSE cargo investment and rebuys.

    And the PVP players are unwilling to change their playstyle. The cargo ships must change.

    Because people who don't want to PVP are second class citizens, apparently?
    your rhetorical question is actually quite wrong, it's even simpler than that.

    PvP players dont want to haul cause it's boring.you can trade all you want, you can still give garrison supplies to other backend systems that have no traffic. You're free to have escort wings of your own. Powerplay is going to turn into something more social, adapt or die, simply put.

    PvP'ers were talking about this since powerplay came out but i guess since it tailored grinding in safe modes it doesnt concern you guys until now.

    Though i do agree the role itself will be a bit less valued, so i hope a slight buff to PP trading payouts is introduced

  3. #3
    1. PvP players are forced to do everything. Even hauling, exploring, unchallenging PvE and mining.
    We do everything but way more effective.
    2. PvP players suggest to strengthen non combat oriented builds and the majority agrees that the gap between PvE and PvP is way too big.
    3. We want to "force" people to PvP because a PvP player faces the same risk as everyone whereas non-PvPers can simply avoid it (and yet moan about the consequences of playing in PG/solo).
    3.1 I fly an Anaconda in open when I haul stuff around and engineer modules. It barely has defenses except for a C7A shield and one MRP. Other than that it is just as strong as the module it carries around. Am I concerned even if I see a wing of 4? No, because I am actually aware and don't turn off my brain.
    4. You might want to take a look at this excellent guide that has been released today:

    Edit: video NSFW

  4. #4
    ehm firstly watch this:
    Edit: video NSFW
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh9AWV_BWo0&t=14s

    and now we can talk. Players are not forced to play open if they don't want by themselves. powerplay is meant to be PvP content which means to be in Open mode. Why? Because it's mostly about interactions between players and is simply unfair to do hauling in solo mode and still do significant influece in fortification or undermine. Other players cannot stop you and this is logic.

    There are plenty of tips how to avoid almost any player in Open if you want and you know how to do.
    Unfortunatelly i disagree with you.

  5. #5
    If I'm right, the video talks about the ASP Explorer. It looks awesome but I have seen the price of it, Wow, even by playing everyday Elite, I think it will take like one month before being able to purchase it. Dream ship it is.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Busholeander View Post (Source)
    If I'm right, the video talks about the ASP Explorer. It looks awesome but I have seen the price of it, Wow, even by playing everyday Elite, I think it will take like one month before being able to purchase it. Dream ship it is.
    I don't know what you are doing but you should reconsider your way of making credits. Even plain basic bounty hunting will give you more cr/h to buy it within aday.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Crimson Kaim View Post (Source)
    1. PvP players are forced to do everything. Even hauling, exploring, unchallenging PvE and mining.
    We do everything but way more effective.
    2. PvP players suggest to strengthen non combat oriented builds and the majority agrees that the gap between PvE and PvP is way too big.
    3. We want to "force" people to PvP because a PvP player faces the same risk as everyone whereas non-PvPers can simply avoid it (and yet moan about the consequences of playing in PG/solo).
    3.1 I fly an Anaconda in open when I haul stuff around and engineer modules. It barely has defenses except for a C7A shield and one MRP. Other than that it is just as strong as the module it carries around. Am I concerned even if I see a wing of 4? No, because I am actually aware and don't turn off my brain.
    4. You might want to take a look at this excellent guide that has been released today:



    'Force' players into PvP.

  8. #8
    powerplay is meant to be PvP content which means to be in Open mode
    Where on EARTH did you get that idea (and I don't count listening to other PvP'ers who agree with you)

    Frontier - Powerplay Page
    https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/story/powerplay
    "Every player's choices and actions" (EVERY PLAYER - right?)
    "By completing missions, players drive their Power's expansion" (So NOT just PvP - right?)
    "Players can further support their chosen Power with freeform activities and emergent play" (CAN - so definitely optional NOT compulsory)

    I'm reading FRONTIERs book here and I'm seeing NOTHING about it being designed as some kind of "PvP Team Deathmatch"

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Crimson Kaim View Post (Source)
    I don't know what you are doing but you should reconsider your way of making credits. Even plain basic bounty hunting will give you more cr/h to buy it within aday.




    You can these days, with the watering down of things

  10. #10
    I think you'll find that a lot of PVP players, want to interdict a cargo ship, and have his wing mates drop in and defend it from them, while that fight rages, the cargo ship makes it into super cruise, another wing joins with the cargo ship, just as the second attack flight moves to interdict him. This continues, with various other related furballs happening all the way along, as the trader attempts to break through a dynamic and dangerous trade lane.

    So... I don't think you've fully though it all through bud.

  11. #11
    I think you'll find that a lot of PVP players, want to interdict a cargo ship, and have his wing mates drop in and defend it from them
    No hi-tech, trade dependent world would allow loss of trade ships to and from their world...
    Indeed for many worlds with extraction/manufacturing worlds dependent on imported food/water/oxygen it would literally be a matter of life and death....
    They wouldn't patrol their shipping lanes with the odd Anaconda or a few Viper 3s...
    They'd patrol it with multiple capital ships and huge numbers of corvettes...With the resources of multiple systems to draw upon they wouldn't face off against Pirates in stock ships...they'd be above and beyond G5 engineering...they wouldn't allow people that had attacked their shipping to rinse off bounties and then come back to their station...they'd be Wanted for Execution and barred for life wouldn't they?
    The whole concept of Players being able to attack traders etc with little or no long-term consequence simply makes ZERO sense...
    Its akin to suggesting you could blockade JFK airport or the port of Rotterdam without consequence isn't it?

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Novo Mundus View Post (Source)
    I think you'll find that a lot of PVP players, want to interdict a cargo ship, and have his wing mates drop in and defend it from them, while that fight rages, the cargo ship makes it into super cruise, another wing joins with the cargo ship, just as the second attack flight moves to interdict him. This continues, with various other related furballs happening all the way along, as the trader attempts to break through a dynamic and dangerous trade lane.

    So... I don't think you've fully though it all through bud.
    Exactly the kind of interaction we need in the game !

    MMO part of the game needs to be developped.

    If Multi-Crew were more connected with Power Play via big battles it would be even more interesting.

    Originally Posted by jasonbirder View Post (Source)
    The whole concept of Players being able to attack traders etc with little or no long-term consequence simply makes ZERO sense...
    It makes sense. You can't cross a war zone between big powers without consequences. Traders needs escort via Wing/Squadron !

    Wing mission for Power Play could be introduced to make PP Wing/Squadron worth it for both traders and defense fighters.

    This will allow to introduce good MMO gameplay ! Finally !

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Princess Nia View Post (Source)
    your rhetorical question is actually quite wrong, it's even simpler than that.

    PvP players dont want to haul cause it's boring.you can trade all you want, you can still give garrison supplies to other backend systems that have no traffic. You're free to have escort wings of your own. Powerplay is going to turn into something more social, adapt or die, simply put.

    PvP'ers were talking about this since powerplay came out but i guess since it tailored grinding in safe modes it doesnt concern you guys until now.

    Though i do agree the role itself will be a bit less valued, so i hope a slight buff to PP trading payouts is introduced
    PVP players don't want to haul because it's boring. Okay.

    And some haulers simply can't compete. Some people just don't have the reflexes or spatial coordination. But if PP goes open, and they want the special equipment, well, it sucks to be them, huh? The PVPers need their content.


    Nothing is stopping PVP players from fitting a nice Type9 and doing some hauling themselves of a material to counter the other side. They just want content, and to FORCE the haulers out of another game mode where they don't have to deal with the hardest difficulty of ship encounter- other players.

    But suggest that PVPers shelve their war-wagon and haul? How boring! Unacceptable!


    I'm not suggesting that haulers be forced to play solo or anything. Just that one player should not be forced into the play style of another. Hauler to PVP, *or* PVP to hauler. If a hauler wants to haul PP in open, nothing is stopping them, is it? Except the combat ships with interdictors who will murder anything that moves for less reason than PP.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Teh Smoo View Post (Source)
    PVP players don't want to haul because it's boring. Okay.

    And some haulers simply can't compete. Some people just don't have the reflexes or spatial coordination. But if PP goes open, and they want the special equipment, well, it sucks to be them, huh? The PVPers need their content.


    Nothing is stopping PVP players from fitting a nice Type9 and doing some hauling themselves of a material to counter the other side. They just want content, and to FORCE the haulers out of another game mode where they don't have to deal with the hardest difficulty of ship encounter- other players.

    But suggest that PVPers shelve their war-wagon and haul? How boring! Unacceptable!


    I'm not suggesting that haulers be forced to play solo or anything. Just that one player should not be forced into the play style of another. Hauler to PVP, *or* PVP to hauler. If a hauler wants to haul PP in open, nothing is stopping them, is it? Except the combat ships with interdictors who will murder anything that moves for less reason than PP.
    And yet they are right now. A hauler can haul stuff in solo, forcing a PvP player to play hauling activities whilethe hauler can continue hauling and enjoy the game without PvP.
    The PvPer must choose solo to have the advantage and be able to fly in a shieldless Cutter. More to that later.

    With open only PP, players still can haul but with the possibility of actual threat to their actions influencing other PP players negatively. PvP players can counter another type of playstyle without playing said style and most importantly: vice versa! The hauler can counter PvP players by delivering PP cargo successfully.

    Another important thing to note is that the whole open PP wouldn't be an issue of PvE was actually as dangerous as PvP, which would solve the issue of the gap between PvE and PvP as well.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Crimson Kaim View Post (Source)
    And yet they are right now. A hauler can haul stuff in solo, forcing a PvP player to play hauling activities whilethe hauler can continue hauling and enjoy the game without PvP.
    The PvPer must choose solo to have the advantage and be able to fly in a shieldless Cutter. More to that later.

    With open only PP, players still can haul but with the possibility of actual threat to their actions influencing other PP players negatively. PvP players can counter another type of playstyle without playing said style and most importantly: vice versa! The hauler can counter PvP players by delivering PP cargo successfully.

    Another important thing to note is that the whole open PP wouldn't be an issue of PvE was actually as dangerous as PvP, which would solve the issue of the gap between PvE and PvP as well.
    The community just doesnt get it.

    I think it would be beneficial if Frontier sat down with a white board on stream, and explained the type of situations and ruleset for powerplay. Kind of like when everyone sits down to play a new board game together.

    Im not trying to be funny about this either. Im dead serious.

    Ive been looking at these forums and most of the replies. People just genuinely dont understand it.

    Hell Obsidian Ant could explain it and someone would tell him hes just trying to look for a reason to grief.

    It has to come from Fdev lol.

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