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Thread: FDEV do you really honestly truly believe you have a balanced in-game economy?

  1. #121
    Originally Posted by Jukelo View Post (Source)
    I wouldn't call ED a sandbox. To me sandbox means being able to shape the world around you. Minecraft being the most obvious example of a sandbox. There are very few elements of the world we can alter in ED, by design (the devs want to retain control).

    ED is just an open world game. You have various activities the game lets you do in whatever order you wish, it also allows you to do nothing and not worry about any questing and such, but the game world itself is fixed as far as player actions are concerned, with a few limited exceptions.
    CG is probably the only exception, it's very close to what EVE does with mini-events but the outcome is always the same, so there's little to no room for freedom of choice.

    Originally Posted by EUS View Post (Source)
    Elite is doing everything wrong as a singleplayer game because fdev has to cope with the reality of optional multiplayer.

    You got chocolate in my peanut butter!
    You got peanut butter on my chocolate!

    Back to the topic; there is no economy because money/ships/weapons is infinite. The lack of rarity of these things means there's no inherent value to them.
    both argument are correct it does everything wrong as a singleplayer game if you don't play the multiplayer portion of the game. The majority of the playerbase plays the multiplayer portion though.

  2. #122
    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    It's probably because I maybe on their ignore list. Some people don't like it when someone has a difference of opinion or plays Devils Advocate with them.
    Very well possible. I'm not going to start the 'they vs us' game now though it's very tempting...
    Echo chambers are a thing and I wouldn't wonder if many advocates against the ingame ignore filters have no issues using it in the forums.

    Too many Ravenous Bugblatter Beasts of Traal around here.
    On the positive side it's a nice opportunity to study the creation of alternate realities...

  3. #123
    I'm a great man to shout about what wrong and rarely give my suggestion;

    What I'd do....

    With the incoming of Freighters, I'd allow any Commander to buy one. The Freighter would be your own base where-ever you want to place it. It could auto-defend itself, based on the modules you buy and provide. These would be damn expensive, as would the freighter. Obviously buying better modules would provide better support. But it could still be damaged or indeed left in a fiery mess. It's up to you. Blaze (excuse the pun) your own trail... yada yada.

    Your freighter would have an update cost to pay the freighter workers. It might also have an update cost in materials (buyable) but still necessary.

    I'd lower any account balance of greater than 5bn to 5bn.

    The freighter would be limited to 1 jump per hour, this would make it that getting anywhere was a time consuming process, but with the benefit of allowing travel. Obviously your freighter could hold your fleet. (No size limit)

    I would also up the credit earning potential dramatically. To me, it's a game and should be played like one. It should provide a challenge yet fun and rewarding.

    Doing all this, provides the fun and the challenge, but is still rewarding. It also get rid of the masses of wealth.

    Personal ideas/suggestions

  4. #124
    Originally Posted by Ethaidan View Post (Source)
    Lol, ya... all that hyperbole, misinformation and effort from the OP and he's completely misunderstood the entire concept. Brilliant.
    Have you played mmos with player-driven economies? Actual supply and demand can exist in games. Guild Wars 2 is a nice example.

    ED does not have a functioning economy. Supply and demand is not an actual thing in ED- There is unlimited supply within 5 minutes of every station. That circumstance undercuts every single statement that there is a functioning economy in this game.

    Mission driven credit rushes are about FDEV not understanding the mission generation mechanisms they've created. When they are brought to light, FDEV writes a patch to break the BGS.

    The real problem is the mission generating system that relies on the BGS. Every population has basic needs that should be reflected in the core missions offered at each system. This is not the case. You can have populations of billions in a system, yet every available mission is a Massacre or Donation mission. Foolish and inconsistent with the actual needs of a large population. In addition, the basic mission rewards for most systems is insignificant and inadequate.

    As a result, playing the game is not about playing the game its about playing the game design to look for rushes.

    There are two fixes that would help.

    1) Mandatory core mission offerings at every station based on population and available resources. These core missions should pay out a floor of 30 million per hour.

    2) Viable credit sinks for all players (not just large player wings or pmfs). This could be customizable ship hangers at home bases, fleet carriers, player / pg accessible outposts, player / pg accessible small surface bases.

    The confirmation bias at FDEV that the BGS religion makes for fair and interesting game play for everyone is foolish.

  5. #125
    Originally Posted by Commander Danicus View Post (Source)
    Have you played mmos with player-driven economies? Actual supply and demand can exist in games. Guild Wars 2 is a nice example.

    ED does not have a functioning economy. Supply and demand is not an actual thing in ED- There is unlimited supply within 5 minutes of every station. That circumstance undercuts every single statement that there is a functioning economy in this game.

    Mission driven credit rushes are about FDEV not understanding the mission generation mechanisms they've created. When they are brought to light, FDEV writes a patch to break the BGS.

    The real problem is the mission generating system that relies on the BGS. Every population has basic needs that should be reflected in the core missions offered at each system. This is not the case. You can have populations of billions in a system, yet every available mission is a Massacre or Donation mission. Foolish and inconsistent with the actual needs of a large population. In addition, the basic mission rewards for most systems is insignificant and inadequate.

    As a result, playing the game is not about playing the game its about playing the game design to look for rushes.

    There are two fixes that would help.

    1) Mandatory core mission offerings at every station based on population and available resources. These core missions should pay out a floor of 30 million per hour.

    2) Viable credit sinks for all players (not just large player wings or pmfs). This could be customizable ship hangers at home bases, fleet carriers, player / pg accessible outposts, player / pg accessible small surface bases.

    The confirmation bias at FDEV that the BGS religion makes for fair and interesting game play for everyone is foolish.
    EVE struggled with this in the early days and they solved it by introducing career agents and epic arcs. It's pretty much what you just described.

  6. #126
    Originally Posted by EUS View Post (Source)
    Elite is doing everything wrong as a singleplayer game because fdev has to cope with the reality of optional multiplayer.

    You got chocolate in my peanut butter!
    You got peanut butter on my chocolate!
    Wish this could be a STICKY in Dangerous Discussion so people stop the bickering and accept the reality that this game was always clearly marketed and sold as both.

  7. #127
    Originally Posted by Sole Hunter View Post (Source)
    EVE struggled with this in the early days and they solved it by introducing career agents and epic arcs. It's pretty much what you just described.
    Which isn't a bad idea for ED as well. Mission arcs would especially suit promotion progression, and career agents with scaling rewards would very much charge up what should be components of an economy aka Mining for raw materials, or combat agents providing meaningful story changing content. Eve does many things wrong as hell, but when they get things right, it's nuggets of brilliance that deserve credit.

  8. #128
    Originally Posted by Vorxian View Post (Source)
    combat agents providing meaningful story changing content
    Not really viable nor feasible in the context of ED given the single shared universe state... the best you can (perhaps) hope for is changes in the player experience based on faction reputation, which arguably is there to at least some degree.

    ED is not a story driven RPG (c/f ESO, GW, GW2, DA, etc) and IMO should never become ANYTHING like one either.

  9. #129
    Originally Posted by rlsg View Post (Source)
    Not really viable nor feasible in the context of ED given the single shared universe state... the best you can (perhaps) hope for is changes in the player experience based on faction reputation, which arguably is there to at least some degree.

    ED is not a story driven RPG (c/f ESO, GW, GW2, DA, etc) and IMO should never become ANYTHING like one either.
    Agree, but what they can do is what starts as a normal average seemingly unimportant mission, could see the commander make a series of choices, and each choice has its own chain of tasks. It could be that one of these tasks, still seemingly unimportant leads to a task that involves collecting a 'rock' or shooting a rock on a moon, that isn't a rock, it's a dormant goid ship that gets woken, and then goes on a rampage, and a CG opens to get rid of it.. The commander gets the good or bad publicity on finding it.

    Could be a combat arc, or a mining arc, or exploration arc.. Just seemingly plain missions that can lead to some exciting and game changing content.

    Mission arcs etc are very good at making one feel like there has been some kind of progression..

    Appreciate ED isn't driven by a story narrative, or some kind of absolute goal like say, WOW ridding the world of the Lich King.. but, ongoing survival and expansion of the human race is a very good theme

    o7

  10. #130
    Originally Posted by Powderpanic View Post (Source)

    It could be easily directed but FDEV seen scared to upset people and make changes. The best thing we have seen in 3 years towards an MMO is forcing Powerplay into Open.

    Powerpanic
    The Voice of Griefing
    *lulz*

    You mean: In an so called "Instance of Open", where you still can not be certain to play with 100% of the Players.

    I mean honestly - I appreciate that you guys try everything to make Open the one and only way of playing elite, but 99% of the Arguments I have seen have just one specific aim: Getting more n00bs to shoot at because you are running out of Targets.

    It cant be more boring, to be honest.

  11. #131
    Originally Posted by Vorxian View Post (Source)
    Agree, but what they can do is what starts as a normal average seemingly unimportant mission, could see the commander make a series of choices, and each choice has its own chain of tasks. It could be that one of these tasks, still seemingly unimportant leads to a task that involves collecting a 'rock' or shooting a rock on a moon, that isn't a rock, it's a dormant goid ship that gets woken, and then goes on a rampage, and a CG opens to get rid of it.. The commander gets the good or bad publicity on finding it.

    Could be a combat arc, or a mining arc, or exploration arc.. Just seemingly plain missions that can lead to some exciting and game changing content.

    Mission arcs etc are very good at making one feel like there has been some kind of progression..

    Appreciate ED isn't driven by a story narrative, or some kind of absolute goal like say, WOW ridding the world of the Lich King.. but, ongoing survival and expansion of the human race is a very good theme

    o7
    Totally, if you forget about the dull Thargoid narrative and think back to Colonia. You have just the type of missed opportunity that could have made this game great.
    A huge expansion rush for players to claim worlds and build their own stations, maybe not player owned but player action generated.

    Give a reason for players to make the long trip that is both rewarding and delivers a feeling of accomplishment, past just making a thousand jumps.
    You could have had power play style mechanics, for players to take and lose territory.
    Mining missions to generate essential live supporting materials etc etc.

    Security would have been needed to defend against pirates chasing a new found source of untouched riches.

    Another alien species could have been discovered and caused problems.

    SO SO SO SO MUCH Potential.

    What did you get... The same exact grind as everywhere else but you need to spend hours getting to it first.

    Wasted

    Powerpanic
    The Voice of Griefing

  12. #132
    Originally Posted by iFred View Post (Source)
    *lulz*

    You mean: In an so called "Instance of Open", where you still can not be certain to play with 100% of the Players.

    I mean honestly - I appreciate that you guys try everything to make Open the one and only way of playing elite, but 99% of the Arguments I have seen have just one specific aim: Getting more n00bs to shoot at because you are running out of Targets.

    It cant be more boring, to be honest.
    Speak to FDEV buddy, they already said Open was the most popular mode by a significant amount ( Search for that post ).

    People are just trying to support the main mode and make space great again.



    Powerpanic
    The Voice of Griefing

  13. #133
    Originally Posted by Vorxian View Post (Source)
    Agree, but what they can do is what starts as a normal average seemingly unimportant mission, could see the commander make a series of choices, and each choice has its own chain of tasks. It could be that one of these tasks, still seemingly unimportant leads to a task that involves collecting a 'rock' or shooting a rock on a moon, that isn't a rock, it's a dormant goid ship that gets woken, and then goes on a rampage, and a CG opens to get rid of it.. The commander gets the good or bad publicity on finding it.

    Could be a combat arc, or a mining arc, or exploration arc.. Just seemingly plain missions that can lead to some exciting and game changing content.

    Mission arcs etc are very good at making one feel like there has been some kind of progression..

    Appreciate ED isn't driven by a story narrative, or some kind of absolute goal like say, WOW ridding the world of the Lich King.. but, ongoing survival and expansion of the human race is a very good theme

    o7
    Essentially, I am 100% against this level of player agency and impact on the shared universe state. I get it that some are looking for more of a player focused protagonist/antagonist type game-play but to me that is not appropriate for ED (especially to the level that some seem to expect). There are elements of easter-eggs in ED with impact on the shared story but they should remain rare and infrequent and low impact in terms of direct consequences to the universe state.

  14. #134
    Originally Posted by Powderpanic View Post (Source)
    Maynard, while it wont effect the PVE heroes out there. Open powerplay would be fantastic!
    Only Frontier know how many players who don't play in Open engage in PowerPlay.

    Originally Posted by Powderpanic View Post (Source)
    It was more a dig at anti-change alliance, who are constantly pushing to STOP major changes in Elite Dangerous because they are quite happy PVE'ing away.
    There is a common conflation between being opposed to existing features being locked to a single (PvP-enabled) game mode and being anti-change.

    It rather depends what the changes are and who they affect.

  15. #135
    Originally Posted by rlsg View Post (Source)
    Not really viable nor feasible in the context of ED given the single shared universe state... the best you can (perhaps) hope for is changes in the player experience based on faction reputation, which arguably is there to at least some degree.

    ED is not a story driven RPG (c/f ESO, GW, GW2, DA, etc) and IMO should never become ANYTHING like one either.
    Career agents was part of the initial kickstarter pitch, not sure what you are on about.

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