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Thread: Thank you FDev!

  1. #61
    Originally Posted by Tarman View Post (Source)
    MWO has the same draw as Elite too on one level, completely visceral vehicle experiences. There's donkeyloads of things I'd like Elite to have, but if it doesn't, that doesn't stop me from enjoying what I do like. I think generally I just tend to focus on the stuff I enjoy and the stuff that works, unless it tips a personal balance of notfun, which Elite hasn't done for me. YMMV.
    My issue with Elite here is twofold, first it's the overreliance on RNG and grind, which are really just lazy or underdeveloped game mechanics. The second issue is we have all sorts of development promises, not only from Braben but even on the LEP sales pages. When you make specific claims about what the game is going to be and completely fail to deliver those features even on a basic level then players are going to be disappointed. Even if there are some things the game does well, such as immersion, players are going to continually compare the game they have to the game that was promised and I think that is where so much of the discontent comes from.

    That's actually a criticism that I think applies to both Elite and MWO. If you looked at the original descriptions for CW they were amazing, and there is no technical reason they couldn't have developed it other than wanting to maximize their profits by pushing out more mech designs. They described a mech-based fps involving strategic territory-based combat, and after 4 years they still just have a 12 v. 12 sandbox.

    Originally Posted by Tarman View Post (Source)
    I still wish MWO had joystick-first support, but it's hardcoded and pretty sluggishly responsive; since you mentioned 5 is on a different build entirely, I hope it lets me use all this CH kit. But the things I didn't like about MWO did or didn't change because I was mad or loud, and for a bit I was till I realized I could yell at the sky for about the same effect.
    It will be interesting to see what they do with the control scheme and UI for MW5. This is something I think they did almost perfectly already with MWO. The point where they really of went off track was with clumsy game mechanics like "ghost heat" and similar poor decisions to discourage "boating". Really it reminds me a lot of FD trying to push fixed weapons on everyone to discourage gimbal use. One of the main reasons I haven't gotten into Thargoid fighting is because my only options are fixed or turret weapons, they just straight-up haven't given us any gimballed versions of the AX or Guardian weapons. Really if they want to try to "force" me to use fixed weapons I just won't play that content. Taking away player choice because the devs think they know how they "want" you to play the game is really one of the fastest ways to get players to stop playing your game.

    Originally Posted by Tarman View Post (Source)
    I would like to steal the MWO paint arrangement for Elite tho. For a paid cosmetic you could do a lot even with a little.
    I actually found that despite the MWO paints being somewhat overpriced it did offer quite a bit of customization that made you feel like they were "your" mechs. Even before we had Clans drop I painted my IS mechs in a white/blue arctic "Rasalhauge Dominion" scheme from MW: Dark Age. It was as close as I could get thematically to Ghost Bear at the time and once I unlocked the two colors I needed it was easy to unify the colors across all of my mechs. I wish I could do something similar with my Elite ships which have an annoying combination of grey/blue/green/white for their base hull colors because certain ships still don't have certain options available.

  2. #62
    Originally Posted by Devari View Post (Source)
    My issue with Elite here is twofold, first it's the overreliance on RNG and grind, which are really just lazy or underdeveloped game mechanics. The second issue is we have all sorts of development promises, not only from Braben but even on the LEP sales pages. When you make specific claims about what the game is going to be and completely fail to deliver those features even on a basic level then players are going to be disappointed. Even if there are some things the game does well, such as immersion, players are going to continually compare the game they have to the game that was promised and I think that is where so much of the discontent comes from.

    That's actually a criticism that I think applies to both Elite and MWO. If you looked at the original descriptions for CW they were amazing, and there is no technical reason they couldn't have developed it other than wanting to maximize their profits by pushing out more mech designs. They described a mech-based fps involving strategic territory-based combat, and after 4 years they still just have a 12 v. 12 sandbox.



    It will be interesting to see what they do with the control scheme and UI for MW5. This is something I think they did almost perfectly already with MWO. The point where they really of went off track was with clumsy game mechanics like "ghost heat" and similar poor decisions to discourage "boating". Really it reminds me a lot of FD trying to push fixed weapons on everyone to discourage gimbal use. One of the main reasons I haven't gotten into Thargoid fighting is because my only options are fixed or turret weapons, they just straight-up haven't given us any gimballed versions of the AX or Guardian weapons. Really if they want to try to "force" me to use fixed weapons I just won't play that content. Taking away player choice because the devs think they know how they "want" you to play the game is really one of the fastest ways to get players to stop playing your game.



    I actually found that despite the MWO paints being somewhat overpriced it did offer quite a bit of customization that made you feel like they were "your" mechs. Even before we had Clans drop I painted my IS mechs in a white/blue arctic "Rasalhauge Dominion" scheme from MW: Dark Age. It was as close as I could get thematically to Ghost Bear at the time and once I unlocked the two colors I needed it was easy to unify the colors across all of my mechs. I wish I could do something similar with my Elite ships which have an annoying combination of grey/blue/green/white for their base hull colors because certain ships still don't have certain options available.
    I agree the dissonance and discontent is the burn between Imaginary Game and Actual Game, but from my perspective that is a player-controlled thing. Believing someone's grandiose promises isn't on the person making them so much as the person investing in them. Apparently that's a minority view though, I accept that. I can imagine that this issue is unfathomably worse in the SC fanbase as the promises and the cash outlay are exponentially bigger over there.

    I'd pay the cost for an expandable suite of colours that I could apply to everything I own like in MWO. Wouldn't invalidate anything except the basic solid-colour packages; and still allow you to get the specials, but then tweak them for colour. I had a Hunchback named Heatcoffin that was done up in orange and yellow zigzags, and I still miss my red and black skeleton Atlas; also the skeleton on the Raven looking like a bird was creepyclassy. I imagine retoning the Medusa or the Onionhead skin on my Cobra. 8)

  3. #63
    Glad to see this OP! I love Elite Dangerous! If it never had another bug fix it would still be in my top 10 favorite games of all time!

  4. #64
    Originally Posted by Tarman View Post (Source)
    I agree the dissonance and discontent is the burn between Imaginary Game and Actual Game, but from my perspective that is a player-controlled thing. Believing someone's grandiose promises isn't on the person making them so much as the person investing in them. Apparently that's a minority view though, I accept that. I can imagine that this issue is unfathomably worse in the SC fanbase as the promises and the cash outlay are exponentially bigger over there.
    Well some features, like EVA repair gameplay where you fix your ship in a space suit, was a bit ambitious. Basic space legs however is not only achievable it's actually rudimentary to accomplish at a basic level for any competent dev team even with minimal resources. Same with CW for MWO, it wasn't an issue where they ran into technical difficulties, they just didn't develop the gameplay. There were many planned features for both Elite and MWO which were entirely achievable but were simply not developed and seeing those development plans not even being worked on is quite disappointing.

    SC is by far the worst for the mismatch between planned features and reality because the scope of the game is literally massive and they are not going to be able to implement everything to the scale they originally intended. They also have significant issues with communication and some players have based their expectations on 4-5 year old dev posts which have changed significantly since then. Some players also don't read carefully and instead make assumptions about how the game will be without actually looking at what is being made or what the game will need to do in order to achieve gameplay balance. Then you have some players who have gotten it into their heads that the game will be some sort of sci-fi version of Second Life or something and the game is never meant to be that type of game. They usually make ridiculous suggestions about whether they can build boats and fish on water worlds as if those types of features were ever part of the plans for SC. Meanwhile the flight model is still a mess and turrets don't work properly so CIG has more than enough work to do just getting the basic game mechanics working properly. Still if SC can realize even 70% of their development plans the game will be amazing, but the dev team really needs to cut down on feature/scope creep and seriously focus on the core gameplay mechanics at this point.

    Originally Posted by Tarman View Post (Source)
    I'd pay the cost for an expandable suite of colours that I could apply to everything I own like in MWO. Wouldn't invalidate anything except the basic solid-colour packages; and still allow you to get the specials, but then tweak them for colour. I had a Hunchback named Heatcoffin that was done up in orange and yellow zigzags, and I still miss my red and black skeleton Atlas; also the skeleton on the Raven looking like a bird was creepyclassy. I imagine retoning the Medusa or the Onionhead skin on my Cobra. 8)
    The skeleton paint for the Atlas sounds classic, I think they did a really good job on the MWO version of the Atlas by making it look imposing without ending up with a cartoon-style skull head. I really enjoyed my Atlas D-DC version with ECM, I would try to flank and sneak up on other mechs who were rather dismayed to suddenly see an Atlas brawler standing right in their face that they thought was on the other end of the map. I haven't taken my Kodiak out yet but I think the MWO Kodiak is actually one of the best versions I've seen in terms of having a reasonable mech's bear head without ending up looking like a giant robot teddy bear. It really is a good counterpart to the Atlas thematically in terms of having an imposing face/head that really suits the assault mech design.

    That Raven paint sounds interesting, never encountered that myself but it sounds like it would suit the mech quite well especially with the cockpit design. I had a Raven I used for scouting that I really enjoyed playing, despite its size it could still pack a decent punch with lasers and SRM6s. I managed to core a few mediums and even heavies a few times when defending a cap point which I think those players weren't expecting from a light mech.

    The more I think about my time playing MWO the more I remember the gameplay being quite well done in terms of being fun and balanced. I really should give it another try and get my Clan mechs up and running, especially my Kodiak variants.

  5. #65
    Originally Posted by Devari View Post (Source)
    Well some features, like EVA repair gameplay where you fix your ship in a space suit, was a bit ambitious. Basic space legs however is not only achievable it's actually rudimentary to accomplish at a basic level for any competent dev team even with minimal resources. Same with CW for MWO, it wasn't an issue where they ran into technical difficulties, they just didn't develop the gameplay. There were many planned features for both Elite and MWO which were entirely achievable but were simply not developed and seeing those development plans not even being worked on is quite disappointing.

    SC is by far the worst for the mismatch between planned features and reality because the scope of the game is literally massive and they are not going to be able to implement everything to the scale they originally intended. They also have significant issues with communication and some players have based their expectations on 4-5 year old dev posts which have changed significantly since then. Some players also don't read carefully and instead make assumptions about how the game will be without actually looking at what is being made or what the game will need to do in order to achieve gameplay balance. Then you have some players who have gotten it into their heads that the game will be some sort of sci-fi version of Second Life or something and the game is never meant to be that type of game. They usually make ridiculous suggestions about whether they can build boats and fish on water worlds as if those types of features were ever part of the plans for SC. Meanwhile the flight model is still a mess and turrets don't work properly so CIG has more than enough work to do just getting the basic game mechanics working properly. Still if SC can realize even 70% of their development plans the game will be amazing, but the dev team really needs to cut down on feature/scope creep and seriously focus on the core gameplay mechanics at this point.
    We definitely agree on a few points to be sure. Although ambitious as it may be- they're still committed to the path of seeing it through. I also don't believe it's a question of "competence" but rather failure in some part to really think impending changes through in prior development aspects of the game and their relative affects on other aspects. There's a demonstrated "layering" of one problem right over the top of another, instead of stopping to really correct the prior problems that were apparent. IMO it rather appears as if there's a bit of infighting going on at Frontier regarding "vision" for the game and what actually gets implemented.

    As far as SC goes I completely agree with your assessment, feature creep is the reason why it's a "failure in the making". They really need to stop trying to include every single aspect of "Second Life" and really narrow their focus to what's immediately possible- and release "other" content as they go. They can make millions of different types of vehicles and take 20 years to release a game, or release it now and tack all that on later, much like Frontier did with ED.

    That said, for as much crap people give Frontier- they at least had the stones to release it, continue their commitment to development- and still facing harsh criticism from some who aren't happy with the time and resource investment of development. I'm glad we've got at least one game now, and not two we're waiting 20 years for.

  6. #66
    Always pleasant to read a satisfied OP

  7. #67
    It's cool to see so many others agree! Rep to all, though I lost track and may have missed someone.
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    Originally Posted by Hell Razor5543 View Post (Source)
    I play in VR. When I put on my Rift and fire up Elite: Dangerous I KNOW I am out amongst the Stars. Occasionally things don't work (which is a pain), but there is too much enjoyment not to put on the Rift at every opportunity.

    I picked up ED 3 or 4 years ago, along with a Warthog HOTAS and the Oculus DK prerelease. The first thing I did was a bunch of loops and rolls in a coriolis… I have never been more sick in my life! I don't know how you stand it. Haha

    I play on the PS4 now, because comfy couch.

  8. #68
    I'm approaching 7000hrs playtime,I think I've been triple elite the longest on console(Sgt ticklefight left)and I still look forward to playing ED every day.
    Thank you FD.o7.

  9. #69
    Originally Posted by cgcody View Post (Source)
    It's cool to see so many others agree! Rep to all, though I lost track and may have missed someone.
    Actually I wonder how people don't agree.

    I played hundreds of hours, or thousands, but not as much as AlphaPapaEcho, I didn't put too much money into the game, just Kickstarter and Horizons. I call that a bargain and there is nothing to argue if somebody say Thank You, FDEV, so I say it again: Thank You, FDEV, for those hours of fun, excitement and relaxation.

    Having said this, now GO AND DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND FIX THE ISSUES !!!

    ;-) Just kidding.

  10. #70
    Originally Posted by Rock Hunter View Post (Source)
    With reference to the bold text.

    I’m not convinced that even makes sense. Should FD wish to deliberately cripple their own game (and we assume you believe they have) then that would make them good or successful decisions. If the game has been crippled by poor decisions then this would indicate that mistakes have been made or even, perhaps, a lack of understanding regarding what ‘a majority’ of players want to see in the game. Suggesting that they would do this simply to wind up players is surely little more than adolescent frustration.

    Passion is always admirable, a lack of thought, empathy and understanding is not.
    Yes, they're deliberately made the grind infinite.

    In Skyrim do you have to grind ages to buy a horse or armour ? Do you stare at a screen while your character/horse ''fast travels'' anywhere ? No you're instantly there. Do you Magically slow down when approaching a settlement ? MORE importantly do you have the devs remove NPC with too much gold cause peopel are getting rich trading ? DO devs remove or put pay walls or grind walls in front of the best tech in the game ?

    In GTA do you have ot grind for 6 months before getting he best car ? Do you have to do 50 trips from nowhere to nowhere carrying nothing interestign just to grind your way to some money ? No you go and ounch people and they drop money. Can i do that in elite ? No...wanted ship are wanted in this sector but not that and those but not those....it's a deliberate mindfvck to get players ot waste time. In GtA i catch some bad guy anywhere in the game i kill them, i dont need a warrant scanner or the police to target them first..what is this nonsense ?

    Again in Skyrim i see bad guys i get them i don't need a warrant scanner. I don't need police ot be engagin them.

    You've seriously lost the definition of fun if you think Elite is nowhere near as fun as GTA. And this isn't about GTA being a model or anything..it's just that GTA is a game, a game is fun, Elite isn't fun,therefore Elite isn;t a game.

  11. #71
    I like flying spaceships.
    I had a look at Skyrim, alas, no spaceships.

  12. #72
    Originally Posted by Speedcuffs View Post (Source)
    I like flying spaceships.
    I had a look at Skyrim, alas, no spaceships.
    Keep looking.

    There's probably a mod.

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