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Thread: No Man's Sky changed my perspective.

  1. #721
    Originally Posted by DaveB View Post (Source)
    Argument to authority is a fallacy even when made by a genuine expert. This fact does not make ignorance a source of authority in its own right. Anyone's maiden aunt's labradoodle can claim to be an expert in whatever they like on the internet, but like the book says "By their fruits shall ye know them" and when the stupid burns that hot all that fake "expertise" is ash.
    No one is claming be an expert in programming: and still a lot of people see what Fd has delivered (or should i say not delivered) compared to other group (Hello Games, Bis, and so on).

    And under those facts they draw - at least the one which want to see - their consequence.

    Being programmer or not it's completly irrilevant

  2. #722
    Originally Posted by Eymerich View Post (Source)
    No one is claming be an expert in programming: and still a lot of people see what Fd has delivered (or should i say not delivered) compared to other group (Hello Games, Bis, and so on).

    And under those facts they draw - at least the one which want to see - their consequence.

    Being programmer or not it's completly irrilevant
    well, actually, a lot of people ARE claiming that expertise here, they are talking about software development as if they know not only the business but the details of ED's code. And, bluntly, most of them are so full of it their eyes should be brown.

    You don't have to believe me. You can go draw whatever conclusions you want. You have that right. That doesn't make your conclusions right. By all means do go ahead and make your assumptions based on "what FD has delivered". You have the absolute right to still be wrong.

    I believe the internet meme is "Please proceed"

  3. #723
    Originally Posted by DaveB View Post (Source)
    You know, when you are so invested in your argument that you bite that hard on humor it doesn't exactly strengthen your position.



    Sorry, buddy, but here you've completely slipped a cog. At this point you're just another armchair expert who I'd be willing to bet has probably never written a single statement of code in his life and has certainly never been paid for it.
    You don't need to be a maker of the media to evaluate the media. This is universally understood by everyone who isn't a baby. It is not a rebuttal or refutation of any kind to say "but you probably don't even know HOW to make the thing you're criticizing!"

    When that's your argument, it's over. You've lost. You've demonstrated that you have nothing to say about the thing itself, no refutation of what is being said, only the childish last resort of trying to discredit the person you're in disagreement with. Pathetic, and always hypocritical to take that stance, because no one has ever consistently demanded that kind of criteria in all domains.

    You dont need to know a single solitary thing about coding, games development, business, the stock market, the British, etc; to make a valid observation about Elite Dangerous or any other videogame, because we are not evaluating the code or the business structure or the financing of the game; we are evaluating WHAT IT ALL AMOUNTS TO as a culmination of those things. All you have to do to make that evaluation, the only expertise you need, is direct experience with the game itself.

    It bears repeating: You do not need to be a maker of the media to evaluate the media. This is not how art, music, food, theatre, architecture, jewelry, or any consumer goods work.

    You our do not need to be a maker of the media to evaluate the media.

  4. #724
    Originally Posted by Kaocraft View Post (Source)
    You don't need to be a maker of the media to evaluate the media. This is universally understood by everyone who isn't a baby. It is not a rebuttal or refutation of any kind to say "but you probably don't even know HOW to make the thing you're criticizing!"

    When that's your argument, it's over. You've lost. You've demonstrated that you have nothing to say about the thing itself, no refutation of what is being said, only the childish last resort of trying to discredit the person you're in disagreement with. Pathetic, and always hypocritical to take that stance, because no one has ever consistently demanded that kind of criteria in all domains.

    You dont need to know a single solitary thing about coding, games development, business, the stock market, the British, etc; to make a valid observation about Elite Dangerous or any other videogame, because we are not evaluating the code or the business structure or the financing of the game; we are evaluating WHAT IT ALL AMOUNTS TO as a culmination of those things. All you have to do to make that evaluation, the only expertise you need, is direct experience with the game itself.

    It bears repeating: You do not need to be a maker of the media to evaluate the media. This is not how art, music, food, theatre, architecture, jewelry, or any consumer goods work.

    You our do not need to be a maker of the media to evaluate the media.
    Sure you can evaluate how good it is, how it works and how much you enjoy it. What you cannot evaluate is how much effort, time and devs it has taken to create these updates without knowledge.

  5. #725
    Elite still remains the absolute king of space flight and space combat. Nothing beats sitting in those wonderfully detailed combats and using a HOTAS. I much prefer flying my ships in Elite than in No Man's Sky.

    Elite just fails in *every other regard*. Boring exploration and mining (soon to be changed, mind you), no space legs, boring dead planets with no reason to explore other than collecting mats for engineering and synthesis, no base building, no fleet management ... it's a bit lackluster for a game that's been out this long and had promised so much. No Man's Sky got absolutely roasted for it's lack of content at launch. Now it's caught up in big ways two years later. Elite ... is still lacking in content. Except in space combat. They've devoted all their time in the last two years to making space combat great. Just sucks for those who would rather do something else, yeah?

  6. #726
    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    Sure you can evaluate how good it is, how it works and how much you enjoy it. What you cannot evaluate is how much effort, time and devs it has taken to create these updates without knowledge.
    While I agree that comparing the development of one game with that of another that is developed by a different team and has a notionally different project charter is a tad ridiculous, there is at least some precedent for using high level information to estimate man power involved in executing a given task. However, the devil is in the details and those details are not discernible from an outside observer perspective. In addition, estimating in general is not an exact science.

    Where the development of ED is concerned, FD seem to have at least a high level view of what they want to deliver (in terms of space-legs and atmospheric planet support) and delaying delivery of certain features because they are not ready in the developers eyes (for any reason) is the right way to go for a product like ED.

    NMS may have got there first on some things but that does not mean the solutions or approaches used for NMS would be appropriate for ED. It is also worth keeping in mind that NMS does not officially support VR out of the box, unlike ED.

  7. #727
    Originally Posted by Kaocraft View Post (Source)
    You don't need to be a maker of the media to evaluate the media. This is universally understood by everyone who isn't a baby. It is not a rebuttal or refutation of any kind to say "but you probably don't even know HOW to make the thing you're criticizing!"

    When that's your argument, it's over. You've lost. You've demonstrated that you have nothing to say about the thing itself, no refutation of what is being said, only the childish last resort of trying to discredit the person you're in disagreement with. Pathetic, and always hypocritical to take that stance, because no one has ever consistently demanded that kind of criteria in all domains.

    You dont need to know a single solitary thing about coding, games development, business, the stock market, the British, etc; to make a valid observation about Elite Dangerous or any other videogame, because we are not evaluating the code or the business structure or the financing of the game; we are evaluating WHAT IT ALL AMOUNTS TO as a culmination of those things. All you have to do to make that evaluation, the only expertise you need, is direct experience with the game itself.

    It bears repeating: You do not need to be a maker of the media to evaluate the media. This is not how art, music, food, theatre, architecture, jewelry, or any consumer goods work.

    You our do not need to be a maker of the media to evaluate the media.
    This is true. Evaluate it however you wish. Form whatever opinion of the quality of the end result you see fit. Like it or don't. Play it or don't. That's fine. But when somebody claims "expertise" that is dubious at best, making pronouncements about developer's abilities while betraying a severe lack of knowledge of the craft, when they use that alleged expertise as an argument why their opinion is more valid than anyone elses, well, they can expect to get their opinion stepped on.

  8. #728
    Originally Posted by DaveB View Post (Source)
    well, actually, a lot of people ARE claiming that expertise here, they are talking about software development as if they know not only the business but the details of ED's code. And, bluntly, most of them are so full of it their eyes should be brown.
    This.

    I'm amazed at how many gamers are developers themselfs, there should be way more "well developed" games out there no?
    Most of my career have I worked in encryption and compresion development, I won't even think about understanding game development or have any insight in what kind of coding FDev uses, they're using their own developed engine so no prefab engine, imho to understand their coding you'll have to know their Cobra engine very well.
    I wonder how many of us have any knowledge whatsoever of that engine and it's coding, I certainly don't.

    However when I look at some statements made by people who claim to be developers here then I'm absolutely gobsmacked and wonder what kind of development they're into.

  9. #729
    so me and my kid normally play elite together, we been playing NMS together for about a week, we tried going back to Elite and it just feels sooooo shallow and slow and boring in comparison, for context im a life time pass memeber, been playing since beta, about 7 billion in assets, cutter, corvette, all but one engineer unlocked, and i still love elite, but gods hello games have just blown past frontier with content, it has stargates with gate addresses you can find, you can go to an ancient ruin and actually dig the ruin out of the ground, bases space legs, tons of upgrades that are not a grind, and yes it has grind but the grind is actually fun to do, and so varied.

    my only hope now is that this competition will spur frontier on to make Elite what it could be, because i love elite, but right now, its vacation time on NMS. lets hope i dont decide to emigrate.

  10. #730
    Originally Posted by Dutchman141 View Post (Source)
    This.

    I'm amazed at how many gamers are developers themselfs, there should be way more "well developed" games out there no?
    Most of my career have I worked in encryption and compresion development, I won't even think about understanding game development or have any insight in what kind of coding FDev uses, they're using their own developed engine so no prefab engine, imho to understand their coding you'll have to know their Cobra engine very well.
    I wonder how many of us have any knowledge whatsoever of that engine and it's coding, I certainly don't.

    However when I look at some statements made by people who claim to be developers here then I'm absolutely gobsmacked and wonder what kind of development they're into.
    Well, I am a developer and one of the things that annoy me the most is when a customer gets the feature delivered exactly according to specs, and asks for unspecced updates to those features. But of course, we're happy to deliver those extra features. They can be done by the end of next week. And then they go: That long? But it's just a simple adjustment!

    By now my manager has taught me to keep my big mouth shut and let him handle that particular question. Because I am tempted to shove my laptop in their face saying: It's a simple adjustment? Is it really? Well, here's the code, why don't you and your intimate knowledge of my code show me how simple this adjustment is?
    Originally Posted by valbarr View Post (Source)
    so me and my kid normally play elite together, we been playing NMS together for about a week, we tried going back to Elite and it just feels sooooo shallow and slow and boring in comparison, for context im a life time pass memeber, been playing since beta, about 7 billion in assets, cutter, corvette, all but one engineer unlocked, and i still love elite, but gods hello games have just blown past frontier with content, it has stargates with gate addresses you can find, you can go to an ancient ruin and actually dig the ruin out of the ground, bases space legs, tons of upgrades that are not a grind, and yes it has grind but the grind is actually fun to do, and so varied.
    Originally Posted by valbarr View Post (Source)

    my only hope now is that this competition will spur frontier on to make Elite what it could be, because i love elite, but right now, its vacation time on NMS. lets hope i dont decide to emigrate.
    Can you report back after you spent as much time with NMS as you did with Elite? For valid comparison you see.

    Cheers!

    edit: no idea why my post breaks up your quote. Can't adjust it either.

  11. #731
    Originally Posted by Dutchman141 View Post (Source)
    I'm amazed at how many gamers are developers themselfs, there should be way more "well developed" games out there no?
    breaking news! there are! (and plentyful).

    Originally Posted by Dutchman141 View Post (Source)
    Most of my career have I worked in encryption and compresion development, I won't even think about understanding game development or have any insight in what kind of coding FDev uses,
    you know, maybe you're an oldschool like me. much has changed since programming was a noble craft and turned into a full blown engineering thing. while every domain has some specifics there are well established processes and methologies around common software engineering aspects, which are way more common and prevalent than you seem to think. if you're still in business you might aswell try to keep up.

    apart from the evident: you indeed can compare the quality of delivery of different games. you don't even need to be a developer yourself, just an attention paying user.

    and of course dubious, superficial or otherwise ignorant claims have been made about development, but they are not as common as you imply, and most of them come from people stating 'i'm not a developer but ...' and tend to depict elites development process like some sort of magic, and engineers like their personal heroes.

    Originally Posted by Dutchman141 View Post (Source)
    they're using their own developed engine so no prefab engine, imho to understand their coding you'll have to know their Cobra engine very well.
    i don't need to know zilch about the cobra engine to know it has real trouble with lighting and shadows, or that frontier's qa is abysmal.

  12. #732
    Originally Posted by zn˘rt View Post (Source)
    breaking news! there are! (and plentyful).



    you know, maybe you're an oldschool like me. much has changed since programming was a noble craft and turned into a full blown engineering thing. while every domain has some specifics there are well established processes and methologies around common software engineering aspects, which are way more common and prevalent than you seem to think. if you're still in business you might aswell try to keep up.

    apart from the evident: you indeed can compare the quality of delivery of different games. you don't even need to be a developer yourself, just an attention paying user.

    and of course dubious, superficial or otherwise ignorant claims have been made about development, but they are not as common as you imply, and most of them come from people stating 'i'm not a developer but ...' and tend to depict elites development process like some sort of magic, and engineers like their personal heroes.



    i don't need to know zilch about the cobra engine to know it has real trouble with lighting and shadows, or that frontier's qa is abysmal.
    Yeah, I was an old school developer, retired now, and you're right about Fdev's QA department.
    I think that's the problem with the gaming industry, developers get away to easy with a sloppy QA without to severe consequences.
    If we would've released our applications in the same state as many games are then I would've been fired long before my retirement.

    What I was aiming at though whas statements like ED being nothing but a bag of bugs and that FDev has nothing to show for.
    You hear that quite frequently.
    This is simply not true, as far as I can tell ED seems to be quite complex to develop, no excuse for that many bugs but still a given imho.
    You can't just wave that away and revert to insulting the devs using your own position as a dev as leverage.

  13. #733
    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    Sure you can evaluate how good it is, how it works and how much you enjoy it. What you cannot evaluate is how much effort, time and devs it has taken to create these updates without knowledge.
    Well, maybe YOU are too... challenged to "evaluate" such stuff, but given that we know how many devs FD claims to work on Elite and how big HG is as a total, how many devs it took to do what is not exactly rocket science, at least for some of us. Also, how long it took is not exactly hard either given the release dates of both games and how long it took HG to release the Next update and all other updates prior to it adding the stuff I already educated you on. As for the effort - who cares, but it does seem that FD struggles, A LOT, even with the basics. They can't even get their mission payouts in check, four years after release. Also I'll just mention the brainfart "fixes" such as the "fix" for ramming Skimmers - they are now more deadly than Thargoid tech if you touch them. Or balancing stuff - ships have a limit of 4 anti-xeno weapons for no good reason other more than 4 would be waaaaay too complicated for FD to balance, even if the limit is stupid and otherwise makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The effort on FD's part seems immense!

  14. #734
    Originally Posted by Naskoni View Post (Source)
    Well, maybe YOU are too... challenged to "evaluate" such stuff, but given that we know how many devs FD claims to work on Elite and how big HG is as a total, how many devs it took to do what is not exactly rocket science, at least for some of us. Also, how long it took is not exactly hard either given the release dates of both games and how long it took HG to release the Next update and all other updates prior to it adding the stuff I already educated you on. As for the effort - who cares, but it does seem that FD struggles, A LOT, even with the basics. They can't even get their mission payouts in check, four years after release. Also I'll just mention the brainfart "fixes" such as the "fix" for ramming Skimmers - they are now more deadly than Thargoid tech if you touch them. Or balancing stuff - ships have a limit of 4 anti-xeno weapons for no good reason other more than 4 would be waaaaay too complicated for FD to balance, even if the limit is stupid and otherwise makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The effort on FD's part seems immense!
    Please can you stand up as your voice is somewhat muffled.

    You have made it pretty clear you are utterly clueless.

  15. #735
    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    Please can you stand up as your voice is somewhat muffled.
    Well, next time you pass by the armoury on the way to your white horse select a helmet that doesn't sit so tightly on your head as to exceedingly compress that brain of yours - might help with comprehending simple facts and other bits of reality somewhat

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