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Thread: A lack of imaginative gameplay: our new ADS/DSS mechanics. A rant of epic proportions.

  1. #1

    A lack of imaginative gameplay: our new ADS/DSS mechanics. A rant of epic proportions.

    Since Thursday stream, some thoughts are continuing to nag me. I simply realize that some of the things Frontier are preparing for us will depart the game further from our expectations. Let me explain.

    I saw (beyond of the screenshots and descriptions) nothing more inteligent than the current SRV wave scanner. And that's it. Also, it seems to me that people working on new game mechanics are simply not up the task. They lack the culture, the design philosophy, the IMAGINATION to do something memorable. They simply are not able to see "the big picture", the correlations with other factors. They are not even aware of the intricacies of their own game.

    This is not an attack on Adam Waite as a person. He looked tired, maybe even a bit sick with a cold. I know how hard is sometimes when you have to work from 07.30 to 00.30 and it's a Saturday, and you woke up like a zombie on Sunday, only to take care of some loose ends. I work close with developers myself and I don't envy them (I was one in my youth). A designer work is different, but everyone involved in a software project has no easy job.

    But, on the other hand, Adam looked exactly like some of the juniors I work with. They can do a good job under supervision, but leave them alone for a week and it costs more time and money to dig them out of the corner they've pushed themselves to.

    I simply don't trust Adam and probably others anymore to do a great job. I simply consider the new ADS/DSS mechanic, just a sort of more convoluted wave scanner. Do you like the wave scanner? We use it because there is no alternative, but I never encounter anyone that says "I'm in love with the wave scanner".

    Those mini-games, or game mechanics are in another world (that's not a compliment), comparing to what's needed for Elite. The game premises, the galaxy, the flight mechanics, the graphics are AAA, but those aspects (and others) are like when you put a junior to design a complex flow for an interface.

    I won't push the realism here (we are capable TODAY to discover planets in another solar system and scan them for basic materials), but since exploration is a part so important to the game, we need something that should make us scream "WOW!". What we get instead? The equivalent of a lockpicking mini-game from some past games we all know.

    Moreover, I find the lack of knowledge regarding the game disturbing . Adam didn't know things about the game that everybody in the chat knew. Adam (and the other designers by extension, since he had written material with him), didn't ask themselves questions that Ed was asking him on the stream. Adam didn't know the current mods for the DSS. Adam didn't know what will happen with the ammo for the DSS for non-Horizon players. "They" are thinking that 200 probes should be enough, isn't it? We most certainly need 3-6 probes for a planet. There are systems with like 58 bodies (and more of course). It means that we will need synthesis every 2-3 systems we map. Sometimes you don't have to actually play your game (although it would be nice): you just need some math and a bit of imagination.

    A game is a form of art. Working on a game design requires imagination, a talent for crafting and story telling. A culture. I find in current games (not just Elite) a lack of those qualities.

  2. #2
    Do you have an alternative idea to suggest?

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Mugur View Post (Source)
    Since Thursday stream, some thoughts are continuing to nag me. I simply realize that some of the things Frontier are preparing for us will depart the game further from our expectations. Let me explain.

    I saw (beyond of the screenshots and descriptions) nothing more inteligent than the current SRV wave scanner. And that's it. Also, it seems to me that people working on new game mechanics are simply not up the task. They lack the culture, the design philosophy, the IMAGINATION to do something memorable. They simply are not able to see "the big picture", the correlations with other factors. They are not even aware of the intricacies of their own game.
    Apparently it has to be fun, comparingly fast and intelligent, if forums is to believe. It also has to make us to look sexy and give us leg rubs.

    Seriously, you need to realize there are more requirements for gameplay than to be memorable. Also ohh do please share big picture with us which FD obviously do not see.

    This is not an attack on Adam Waite as a person. He looked tired, maybe even a bit sick with a cold. I know how hard is sometimes when you have to work from 07.30 to 00.30 and it's a Saturday, and you woke up like a zombie on Sunday, only to take care of some loose ends. I work close with developers myself and I don't envy them (I was one in my youth). A designer work is different, but everyone involved in a software project has no easy job.
    Good but Adam didn't design this. He took over management part of design, as Sandro or someone else doing it moved to new Elite phase. So this is attack on Adam, because you haven't informed yourself who is responsible.

    But, on the other hand, Adam looked exactly like some of the juniors I work with. They can do a good job under supervision, but leave them alone for a week and it costs more time and money to dig them out of the corner they've pushed themselves to.
    Ahh, here we go. He is 7 years senior designer. Seriously, maybe check google first before post.

    I simply don't trust Adam and probably others anymore to do a great job. I simply consider the new ADS/DSS mechanic, just a sort of more convoluted wave scanner. Do you like the wave scanner? We use it because there is no alternative, but I never encounter anyone that says "I'm in love with the wave scanner".
    You could simply posted this and be done with. You don't like it. That's all. You had to turn into attack. Classic.

    Those mini-games, or game mechanics are in another world (that's not a compliment), comparing to what's needed for Elite. The game premises, the galaxy, the flight mechanics, the graphics are AAA, but those aspects (and others) are like when you put a junior to design a complex flow for an interface.
    I disagree. FD is trying to find fine balanse between sim and game. Not always work, but sorry, I don't believe for a minute that you could do better.

  4. #4
    OP, I think your simply, simply isn't as simple as you imply.

  5. #5
    I like the SRV's Fish Finder. I just wish I could hear it. 20 minutes with an audio editor and that matter would be resolved.

    The new Discovery Scanner, well, we haven't even seen a live video of it. It might be spectacular, it might be abysmal, we have no way to really know from a single screen shot (technically 2, but the second one is more of a result).

    Where's the De-Rep button around here?

  6. #6
    I, for one, really like the Wave Scanner...

  7. #7
    Good god man, you think that is a 'rant of epic proportions' - hell I have seen rants here that would make yours seem like a polite disagreement over milk or lemon with your cup of tea. There is no accusations, no bold text, no calling FD incompetent, no calling for staff to be sacked, no unfair comparisons to other games - AND NO STEAM CHARTS. Really tame effort, 2/10 on the Mooka Rantometer.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Mugur View Post (Source)
    They lack the culture, the design philosophy, the IMAGINATION to do something memorable.
    More likely they lack resources and time, which I guess could be thought of as culture issues. But take a look in the DDA at some of the Proposals (mostly David Braben and FD's work with some community ideas absorbed into the Revised versions) and the developers' and designers' posts addressing player-raised issues in the threads. There was little wrong with their design philosophy or their collective imagination. They just failed to deliver on the bulk of it with v1.0 and have been largely playing catch-up to a series of target dates ever since, while at the same time adding new stuff they hope will appeal to an ever wider spectrum of players.

    I don't think they're doing too bad a job under the circumstances, but it's a slow process with many hurdles. I believe ED will improve incrementally, maybe with the occasional back-slide (Engineers?) and recovery (Engineers v2?), moving forward until it's no longer cost effective to keep the servers running. But I don't think it will ever match the original vision.

    To achieve that they don't need more imagination. They need a time machine.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by JesusRocks1988 View Post (Source)
    I, for one, really like the Wave Scanner...
    Me too. Recently got lot of SRV action and it is best discovery mechanism ever for me. It feels fresh, mysterious...that's why I like new discovery mechanism for planets very much.

  10. #10
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...lite-Dangerous

    Additionally... Here's the exploration proposal from the DDF.
    Probes and scanners.
    Launching probes and active scanning.

    Third paragraph down is the relevant bit for in-system POIs, the rest above is just hyperspace fluff. But you can clearly see that Frontier have held onto this basic design idea for exploration - that it will use scanners and probes in a similar fashion to what's being presented to us for Q4.

    In fact, the Q4 proposals are a lot more in depth than what's here in the DDF.

    Soon as I saw the idea for the Discovery Scanner, I thought "hmmm that sounds like something I read in the DDF once", and was encouraged that Frontier have not forgotten it and are actually going back to it as I've seen a great many backers suggest they should.

    Lo and behold, I have just had the chance to go back and have a look, and I am suitably impressed.

  11. #11
    I'm going to close this. If the Op would like to make a post omitting the personal remarks about developers, then they are welcome to do that.