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Thread: Bot attack in eranin?

  1. #76
    Originally Posted by DNA-Decay View Post (Source)
    Botting is a huge threat to the game and will be devastating to the community.

    There are now 3 posts looking at the notion of “If they’re doing it - you should too”

    In eight months time it will be irrelevant who did it first or who fired the first shot.
    Everyone will have their eyes on GitHub and be tinkering with code and a couple of spare accounts.

    The BGS will become a toxic wasteland.
    Originally Posted by Goose4291 View Post (Source)
    You and I dont see eye to eye on a lot of things, but I agree wholeheartedly with what you've written here.
    It's a slippery slope.

    So there are a number of systems under automated attack.
    Frontier have had those systems pointed out to them. Their response has been underwhelming so far, but rest assured there is already another ticket for this.
    They have put the onus on those under attack to provide evidence. I would have thought their logs and telemetry would be better, but whatever - there are groups of us complying and that's fine.

    So what that has meant practically is capturing traffic reports and collating the individual ship types into spreadsheets.
    Very tedious.

    Bots operate around the clock, which has meant that we need to co-ordinate CMDRs around the world across the timezones to get full coverage for data acquisition.

    The next problem is getting consistent high frequency sampling.
    Which means Alt accounts and automation.

    So now I've got an Alt account set up with a script running as much of the day as I can; getting screen grabs of traffic every half hour.
    But it needs regular attending as the traffic report moves up and down in the menu.
    If I want to run it 24/7 to get the "solid evidence" that Frontier say they want, then I will have to incorporate an OCR reader that can pass a variable back to the script.
    That's do-able, but I don't really have the time to devote to that sort of thing. It challenges my critical thinking, and I have to do more than a quick google.

    Fortunately there is a lot of expertise in scripting out there, and as I follow the leads and try to turn up versions of this that have been solved by other people, I'm discovering some familiar names and faces.

    Hi.
    Hello - Yes you.

    - No not you, Goose sit down.

    You. Yeah you. - "Hi".
    - You need to stop this.

    I know you know the API inside out and you're covering your tracks pretty well.
    Who you are and how you are placed will make it hard for Frontier to acknowledge that it is you.
    But eventually they will correlate the accounts to credit cards or IPs or whatever mistake you end up making.

    Maybe they'll put in some unannounced tracking into a patch, and maybe this time you won't get a heads-up from your buddies inside.

    But if you keep doing it, eventually they'll put a rat trap in the cookie jar. Eventually everyone will know its you. What are doing and how you are doing it.

    And while personally nothing would give me greater pleasure than to see you squirm publicly - you are not a nobody.
    There are people, good people, who's reputations will be damaged by association. The groups you are involved with and the people you represent.

    You need to be able to stand upright in the middle of the crowd and say: "I have done the right thing".
    Hating the Alliance isn't going to be enough of a reason.
    It might be enough in your clique, but out in public - you're going to embarrass yourself if you stick to that line.

    In order to be effective, your bots have to leave a trail. Eventually Frontier will match the external data they are being provided with their own internal data.

    You really do need to stop.

    Now.


  2. #77
    Originally Posted by DNA-Decay View Post (Source)
    So now I've got an Alt account set up with a script running as much of the day as I can; getting screen grabs of traffic every half hour.
    But it needs regular attending as the traffic report moves up and down in the menu.
    If I want to run it 24/7 to get the "solid evidence" that Frontier say they want, then I will have to incorporate an OCR reader that can pass a variable back to the script.
    That's do-able, but I don't really have the time to devote to that sort of thing. It challenges my critical thinking, and I have to do more than a quick google.
    Isn't it weirdly perverse that to get the evidence of botting Frontier want, you have to run your own bot?

  3. #78
    Still waiting for an answer as to how this would be “devestating to the community”.
    It’s not like a change in management would suddenly render a system inaccessible, or cause ships of any super power to spontaneously explode, or otherwise cut off some venue of game play.

    I get that some people have funny emotional attachments to their Player Named Factions they can’t actually join, and don’t actually belong to, but this isn’t really game play. It’s just mental (not in a seek help way).

    I also get that there are rules, one of which is “Don’t do this”, but none of us are official, payrolled Rules Enforcers either.

    So the actual effect on the community would not be devestating in any way. Some egos might get bruised, but that’s not game play either.

  4. #79
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    Still waiting for an answer as to how this would be “devestating to the community”.
    It’s not like a change in management would suddenly render a system inaccessible, or cause ships of any super power to spontaneously explode, or otherwise cut off some venue of game play.

    I get that some people have funny emotional attachments to their Player Named Factions they can’t actually join, and don’t actually belong to, but this isn’t really game play. It’s just mental (not in a seek help way).

    I also get that there are rules, one of which is “Don’t do this”, but none of us are official, payrolled Rules Enforcers either.

    So the actual effect on the community would not be devestating in any way. Some egos might get bruised, but that’s not game play either.
    devastating to the BGS community, as it has already wrecked the PowerPlay community.

    Since you don't care for either, and keep telling us that BGS play is meaningless, it is not something you will ever grasp.

  5. #80
    Originally Posted by Goose4291 View Post (Source)
    Isn't it weirdly perverse that to get the evidence of botting Frontier want, you have to run your own bot?
    Yep, it's as if someone thought they were setting an impossibly high bar.

  6. #81
    Originally Posted by Mangal Oemie View Post (Source)
    devastating to the BGS community, as it has already wrecked the PowerPlay community.

    Since you don't care for either, and keep telling us that BGS play is meaningless, it is not something you will ever grasp.
    This is such a hard subject to really get a straight answer to for some reason. I’m pretty sure it’s doesn’t have to be, but it is. I’m sure a large part of it is due to me not having any particular ties to any faction, system or power - to me they’re all the same because what I see is them all doing the exact same things. Systems house stations. Stations house factions, factions give missions. Missions give credits. Federal, Imperial, Alliance credits are all the same, with the same 1:1 exchange rate.
    Just trying to see what someone else sees. I might have been wrong my entire life and trying to understand someone else’s position isn’t important after all.

  7. #82
    I don't get it into my head why people would do that. Keep a computer running for 24h "just" to manipulate the BGS?
    I could understand rank- or money grinding, but the BGS? Why?
    It honestly doesn't matter if Malthus Terminal has the ruling faction "Operation IDA" or "Nomads of Timbuktu" or "Maximus Saltus" or whomever from a gameplay perspective.
    There are no personal gains in the BGS. That's what I don't get.

    Don't understand me wrong, I can totally understand that people hate fighting against cheaters, but the reason for all this I will propably never get

  8. #83
    Originally Posted by Goose4291 View Post (Source)
    Isn't it weirdly perverse that to get the evidence of botting Frontier want, you have to run your own bot?
    I've been hoping for separate reasons that the traffic/crimes/bounties reports would be available through the journal at some point. For me it's just a curiosity thing and a "wouldn't it be nice if" request - but if Frontier are expecting collection and analysis of this data to be a requirement for reporting bot attacks, they really need to provide a more practical way to collect it in bulk.

    I get that Frontier support probably don't have time to investigate every "is this a bot? what about this one?" report - especially since a lot would be from people who don't understand the BGS and are just seeing e.g. the effect of a War state on their systems. So it makes sense for them to require players to make a reasonable case that a detailed internal investigation is justified before starting on it ... but then they must provide the tools needed to make that case in a practical fashion.

  9. #84
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    This is such a hard subject to really get a straight answer to for some reason. I’m pretty sure it’s doesn’t have to be, but it is. I’m sure a large part of it is due to me not having any particular ties to any faction, system or power - to me they’re all the same because what I see is them all doing the exact same things. Systems house stations. Stations house factions, factions give missions. Missions give credits. Federal, Imperial, Alliance credits are all the same, with the same 1:1 exchange rate.
    Just trying to see what someone else sees. I might have been wrong my entire life and trying to understand someone else’s position isn’t important after all.
    Originally Posted by Bigmaec View Post (Source)
    I don't get it into my head why people would do that. Keep a computer running for 24h "just" to manipulate the BGS?
    I could understand rank- or money grinding, but the BGS? Why?
    It honestly doesn't matter if Malthus Terminal has the ruling faction "Operation IDA" or "Nomads of Timbuktu" or "Maximus Saltus" or whomever from a gameplay perspective.
    There are no personal gains in the BGS. That's what I don't get.

    Don't understand me wrong, I can totally understand that people hate fighting against cheaters, but the reason for all this I will propably never get
    Ok ill have a go at an explanation. First of all, try to forget the labels. They are nice, but not essential. A PMF by any other name would smell as sweet. Same with joining a faction or not. If youve nurtured a faction into good health, it doesnt really matter if youre 'officially' pledged or not. Its a bit like rescuing a fallen baby bird. It might be a mercy to leave it alone. But, if you nuture it back to life & watch it fledge, do you feel the need to put a branding iron to it with your logo? Or do you stamp on it at the very beginning because you have no personal stake in it's survival?
    Im joking, im not accusing you both of having Reactive Attachment Disorder, or a sociopathy. It would be ridiculous to attempt a diagnosis based on an expressed inability to understand how people can attach emotionally to groups or things they derive no personal benefit from.
    And thats not actually sarcastic. It might seem an obvious connection to draw, but thats the amateur psychology nonsense that is usually completely wrong.

  10. #85
    Originally Posted by Goose4291 View Post (Source)
    Isn't it weirdly perverse that to get the evidence of botting Frontier want, you have to run your own bot?
    'The only way to stop a bad guy with a bot is to have a good guy with a bot'.

    ahem.

  11. #86
    Originally Posted by Bashy81 View Post (Source)
    Ok ill have a go at an explanation. First of all, try to forget the labels. They are nice, but not essential. A PMF by any other name would smell as sweet. Same with joining a faction or not. If youve nurtured a faction into good health, it doesnt really matter if youre 'officially' pledged or not. Its a bit like rescuing a fallen baby bird. It might be a mercy to leave it alone. But, if you nuture it back to life & watch it fledge, do you feel the need to put a branding iron to it with your logo? Or do you stamp on it at the very beginning because you have no personal stake in it's survival?
    Im joking, im not accusing you both of having Reactive Attachment Disorder, or a sociopathy. It would be ridiculous to attempt a diagnosis based on an expressed inability to understand how people can attach emotionally to groups or things they derive no personal benefit from.
    And thats not actually sarcastic. It might seem an obvious connection to draw, but thats the amateur psychology nonsense that is usually completely wrong.
    I get that - people do get attached to things, be they little birds found in yards or NPC groups they named. I still don’t get the motivation to “adopt” any given faction, especially one that you didn’t name, though I suppose this is more a play-style matter than anything else, so I can at least relate to that. It’s a Purple/Green thing, and that’s fine. I’m a Silver myself, so Purple and Green can carry on as they see fit.

    Still not sure about communal devestation though - sounds like a gross hyperbole. I’m part of said same community, just with a very different agenda.

    Labels though... never going away. Human nature demands them, and I do too. But I do appricate your time and explanation. It helps.

  12. #87
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    I get that - people do get attached to things, be they little birds found in yards or NPC groups they named. I still don’t get the motivation to “adopt” any given faction, especially one that you didn’t name, though I suppose this is more a play-style matter than anything else, so I can at least relate to that. It’s a Purple/Green thing, and that’s fine. I’m a Silver myself, so Purple and Green can carry on as they see fit.

    Still not sure about communal devestation though - sounds like a gross hyperbole. I’m part of said same community, just with a very different agenda.

    Labels though... never going away. Human nature demands them, and I do too. But I do appricate your time and explanation. It helps.
    Gladly it pretty much is a purple/green thing, though usually a bit less arbritrary than that. Still, appreciate the B5 reference, & always had a soft-spot for the drazi, hilariously dumb and beautifully overacted

  13. #88
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    Still waiting for an answer as to how this would be “devestating to the community”.
    It’s not like a change in management would suddenly render a system inaccessible, or cause ships of any super power to spontaneously explode, or otherwise cut off some venue of game play.

    I get that some people have funny emotional attachments to their Player Named Factions they can’t actually join, and don’t actually belong to, but this isn’t really game play. It’s just mental (not in a seek help way).

    I also get that there are rules, one of which is “Don’t do this”, but none of us are official, payrolled Rules Enforcers either.

    So the actual effect on the community would not be devestating in any way. Some egos might get bruised, but that’s not game play either.

    Do you seriously need it explained to you how blatant cheating ruins a game?

  14. #89
    Originally Posted by Bigmaec View Post (Source)
    I don't get it into my head why people would do that. Keep a computer running for 24h "just" to manipulate the BGS?
    I could understand rank- or money grinding, but the BGS? Why?
    It honestly doesn't matter if Malthus Terminal has the ruling faction "Operation IDA" or "Nomads of Timbuktu" or "Maximus Saltus" or whomever from a gameplay perspective.
    There are no personal gains in the BGS. That's what I don't get.

    Don't understand me wrong, I can totally understand that people hate fighting against cheaters, but the reason for all this I will propably never get
    A big motive is Powerplay, as changing the government type can hurt your opponent (if it's a system you don't own) or benefit your (if it's one of yours) faction, which is why the first few bots that were caught with their hands in the cookie jar were related to Powerplay activities, incidentally again being used against the Alliance Powerplay faction.

    Originally Posted by Theodrid View Post (Source)
    'The only way to stop a bad guy with a bot is to have a good guy with a bot'.

    ahem.
    Exactly, which neatly segues into what DNA-Decay was saying about how BGS Gameplay and Powerplay will just degenerate into Bot-on-Bot action if left unchecked.

  15. #90
    Just caught up on the thread. Really just one question right now. How long do we wait for Frontier to do something about this?

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