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Thread: Totally Nerfing the Honk is a Mistake

  1. #196
    Originally Posted by picommander View Post (Source)
    You don't listen. Why should anyone listen to you? You're not prepared to compromise (mixing up 2 incompatible systems is NO compromise) so be prepared to get nothing in the end. Easy like that.
    I may well get nothing, but I argue the case for what I think is the best course of action. What I propose takes nothing away from the FSS Scanner Screen, if anything it would speed it up, such that only USSs & any new content revealed only via the FSS need to be hunted for. The FSS would still be useful to resolve & DSS the planetary bodies just as it did in beta, the only practical difference would be that the sysmap is populated as it is pre-3.3 and the nav panel would have a bunch of unexplored bodies, again just as pre-3.3.

    None of this takes anything away from the FSS & it's extra functionality.

  2. #197
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)
    I find the FSS to be highly valuable and I value my time spend with it. It's that simple.

    Let's be clear. Nothing about designing a game for a wide audience is "simple" and the term "valuable" is a treacherous and fungible word that can change allegiances at the drop of a hat.

    The bottom line is that the old system failed. After 4 years the fraction of the players who actively explored dwindled to a low single digit % of the community, and the even the people who once tolerated and championed the old system had given up on exploring, leaving the Exploration Forum a dusty cobweb ridden attic in the Elite community for several years until the arrival of the FSS revived it.

    I'm sorry that the new system doesn't meet your expectations, but the old system didn't meet the vast majority of the community's expectations for 4 long years. And in that time, you guys tagged pretty much all of the cool tourist destinations in the galaxy, with not even a single planetary nebula left for the rest of us, who were waiting patiently for an Exploration patch. I think it's safe to say you guys had your turn with the boring God mode taggng bonanza. It's only fair that the rest of the player base was finally allowed a chance to participate now too.
    Hey dude, you seriously now are calling out other people for being out there exploring and discovering stuff while you were at the bubble for years after killing yourself at Beagle Point because you were lazy to travel the way back and blamed the ads?
    Maybe you should ask for a "i m bored, get me to bubble NOW" button to bind on the keybord. You re gonna need it on DW2.

  3. #198
    Originally Posted by Riverside View Post (Source)
    I may well get nothing, but I argue the case for what I think is the best course of action. What I propose takes nothing away from the FSS Scanner Screen, if anything it would speed it up, such that only USSs & any new content revealed only via the FSS need to be hunted for. The FSS would still be useful to resolve & DSS the planetary bodies just as it did in beta, the only practical difference would be that the sysmap is populated as it is pre-3.3 and the nav panel would have a bunch of unexplored bodies, again just as pre-3.3.

    None of this takes anything away from the FSS & it's extra functionality.
    What it takes away is called gameplay - something you obviously don't seem to understand. Good game design and giving crucial aspects of a game carelessly away for free are generally incompatible as the latter devalues the former. It only "worked" in the past due to a total lack of a better system.

    But why do I bother, it will come anyway while you will mutter until kingdom comes. Nothing that could probably stop you...

  4. #199
    I agree with Ziljan.

    The old exploration mechanics is the equivalent to an "Auto Combat" mode where one could easily kill the toughest and most profitable opponent where no skill is required and without doing much.

    Also, if you really value your time you should be embracing the FSS. I did an experiment in both beta and live where I fully scanned 20 systems I hadn't been before with a total of 238 bodies. In live with the old system it took 5 1/4 hours. In beta with the new FSS it only took me 1 1/2 hours. Time saved - 3.75 hours!

    I personally think the FSS is one of the best things to come in an update and I wish it was there since the beginning.

  5. #200
    Originally Posted by Riverside View Post (Source)
    Players come & go.
    Prior to the FSS introduction, the Explorer forum dwindled to ~1 new post every week. After the FSS was introduced it hit about 20 threads with daily posts in them. I'd say the FSS is already having a massive improvement on player participation and it's not even released yet!

    Originally Posted by Riverside View Post (Source)
    I just like flying a spaceship & I don't like having to park the spaceship & look through a radio telescope & interpret wiggles
    Sounds like you didn't even play the beta at all. In 3.3, you can fly to objects and scan them passively if you want to.


    Originally Posted by Riverside View Post (Source)
    There is no good reason to remove the ADS. The time to state this is now, before 3.3 is released, before it is removed.
    As I said above, I conditionally agree that the ADS could be allowed to remain in the game, but only as an alternative to the FSS, not as a companion module. They both have god-mode elements to them, but those overpowered features are unfortunately complimentary and when combined completely negate any effort required by the other module so that zero effort is required. If you had both the instant system maps reveals and infinite range scanning on the same ship, it wouldn't be exploration and discovery any more, it would just be honk and collect, bouncing awkwardly between 3 UI screens. FSS <=> Cockpit <=> System Map. Yuck.

  6. #201
    Originally Posted by Taimaru View Post (Source)
    I agree with Ziljan.

    The old exploration mechanics is the equivalent to an "Auto Combat" mode where one could easily kill the toughest and most profitable opponent where no skill is required and without doing much.

    Also, if you really value your time you should be embracing the FSS. I did an experiment in both beta and live where I fully scanned 20 systems I hadn't been before with a total of 238 bodies. In live with the old system it took 5 1/4 hours. I beta with the new FSS it only took me 1 1/2 hours. Time saved - 3.75 hours!

    I personally think the FSS is one of the best things to come in an update and I wish it was there since the beginning.
    You are comparing the two mechanics in one very spesific way of exploring, just to make a point. Most people dont fully scan every system they enter. Thats insanity. And yes i know that people do that and its nice that the game gives them that option, but they are the MINORITY, so stop using that as an example.
    Using your logic, i can compare the two mechanics, to what reveals the most bodies while fast travelling and see which is faster. Can you guess what will happen?

  7. #202
    Originally Posted by picommander View Post (Source)
    What it takes away is called gameplay - something you obviously don't seem to understand. Good game design and giving crucial aspects of a game carelessly away for free are generally incompatible as the latter devalues the former. It only "worked" in the past due to a total lack of a better system.

    But why do I bother, it will come anyway while you will mutter until kingdom comes. Nothing that could probably stop you...
    I do not appreciate the 'mutter', I aim to be as clear & precise as I can. Ziljan's posts are so full of hyperbole as to be nearly unintelligible, certainly the point is obscured, assuming there is one beyond being a dog in a manger.

    You do not need to bother to try to win me over, I am not here to win anyone over except any FDev employee that cares to read this far into this thread.

    If the ADS is removed it will be very awkward to put back in. It's easy to make a player's ship lighter, to consume less power, to have an extra slot. It's not so easy to reverse that. This is a basic principle of power creep, something that is inevitable but should be delayed & certainly not casually allowed.

    So I argue that the ADS should not be removed. It would no longer be compulsory because of the soon to be built-in FSS in every ship, but just like weapons, or shields, or any number of other modules that can be optionally be equipped, I'd like to be able to retain that useful module to automatically populate my sys-map & nav panel with unexplored bodies.
    Any player would then be able to continue as before and learn to use the new functionality of the FSS Scanner Screen if they choose to.

    There is no downside to this change, what I propose would still be an improvement on the pre-3.3 discovery mechanism and the more dedicated player will still be able to simply not equip the ADS to save weight & power, with the compromise that they will not have the convenience of an automatically populated sysmap.

    If the new system truly is better as you say this will not be a problem, and it will provide a rather easier to grasp method of discovery for novice players too.

  8. #203
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)
    Since I got sick of the ADS god honk after 5 minutes, 6 months of FSS gameplay would be a 5,259,599% improvement. This is a free update creating gameplay that adds even 6 months to a game I already payed for is 5 months longer than I play most games I've payed $60 that last only 12-24 hours max. Getting an extra 6 months of gameplay life put my ability to complain about this free extension deep into the clownishly ridiculous territory.

    This is all assuming that I get sick of exploration after 6 months. Which there is no evidence. Yet you seem perfectly fine re-upping god-honk gameplay that most players hated after a few minutes when they immediately realized how empty and dull it was? I really don't understand your argument here since anything you're saying about a shelf life of the FSS applies 52,596 times more to the old ADS, including recycling any of it's attendant features that created a negation of gameplay.
    Bollox. I assume nothing. My claim is no one yet knows.

    Don't shove this strawman in my shoes Ziljan. I thought you were better than that. You don't understand my argument? Read the extensive post I wrote.

  9. #204
    Originally Posted by M00ka View Post (Source)
    Ziggy, be honest here, you had already voiced your displeasure of the new system before Beta, so of course you were not going to like anything about it during or even after Beta, your mind had already been made up before beta
    This too is absolute nonsense.

    Reading is a lost art.

  10. #205
    Originally Posted by Maro-Val View Post (Source)
    Most people dont fully scan every system they enter. Thats insanity.
    that's not "insanity" that's a red herring.

    As stated above, the FSS allows for a LOT more than speed scanning a whole system. You can:

    1) filter for specific body types (aka treasure hunt)
    2) look just for human signal sources
    3) look for alien signals sources
    4) use the temp + distance in the filter reticle to try to guess whether a planet is Terraformable
    5) use new refined audio cues to guess planet details (rings, metallicity, atmosphere, etc)
    6) simply speed scan by filtering each target until it resolves (sounds like what you're doing with it)


    Originally Posted by Maro-Val View Post (Source)
    Using your logic, i can compare the two mechanics, to what reveals the most bodies while fast travelling and see which is faster. Can you guess what will happen?
    Simple, the FSS still wins. Once you add in the travel time required for scanning the cherry picked bodies using the old ADS system, it quickly becomes clear that the FSS is still the faster option.

  11. #206
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)
    Prior to the FSS introduction, the Explorer forum dwindled to ~1 new post every week. After the FSS was introduced it hit about 20 threads with daily posts in them. I'd say the FSS is already having a massive improvement on player participation and it's not even released yet!



    Sounds like you didn't even play the beta at all. In 3.3, you can fly to objects and scan them passively if you want to.



    As I said above, I conditionally agree that the ADS could be allowed to remain in the game, but only as an alternative to the FSS, not as a companion module. They both have god-mode elements to them, but those overpowered features are unfortunately complimentary and when combined completely negate any effort required by the other module so that zero effort is required. If you had both the instant system maps reveals and infinite range scanning on the same ship, it wouldn't be exploration and discovery any more, it would just be honk and collect, bouncing awkwardly between 3 UI screens. FSS <=> Cockpit <=> System Map. Yuck.
    Forum activity linked to news about an update and a beta of said update? Surely not This happens with every patch Ziljan, this is one about exploration. Your conclusions are flawed and presumptive.

    In order to fly towards a body you have to know where it is. Currently I use the ADS to get a targetable body, and can do so without using the sysmap or nav-panel. The FSS takes me away from the cockpit & interrupts any flow. I do not play to discover, I discover as part of my play.

    You just don't like what I propose, with no good reason. The two systems are compatible, frankly the probe/mapping process looks like it was designed to work with the pre-3.3 system and not the FSS. The design language of the interfaces are significantly different.

    What you describe as a win-button is how I see the FSS. It diminishes the significance of fully scanning a distant binary and completely undermines any value in tenacity.

  12. #207
    Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post (Source)
    Bollox. I assume nothing. My claim is no one yet knows.

    Don't shove this strawman in my shoes Ziljan. I thought you were better than that. You don't understand my argument? Read the extensive post I wrote.
    Reading is a lost art indeed. The assuming done in the quote is exploring the hypothetical "6 month" window you proposed. A hypothetical requires making an assumption to do a thought experiment to explore the logical conclusions of that assumption. Which is different from taking an actual stance or claiming knowledge.

    Essentially, you just put words in a straw man's hands and shoved them into your own mouth.

  13. #208
    Originally Posted by Riverside View Post (Source)
    In order to fly towards a body you have to know where it is. Currently I use the ADS to get a targetable body, and can do so without using the sysmap or nav-panel. The FSS takes me away from the cockpit & interrupts any flow. I do not play to discover, I discover as part of my play.
    I would agree that it would be nice to have elements of the FSS in the in the cockpit so that you could use the passive scanning ability without leaving the cockpit and without using the nav panel. If that's the major difference in gameplay, I don't see a problem here. Make a thread, and I'll support it.

  14. #209
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)
    Reading is a lost art indeed. The assuming done in the quote is exploring the hypothetical "6 month" window you proposed. A hypothetical requires making an assumption to do a thought experiment to explore the logical conclusions of that assumption. Which is different from taking an actual stance or claiming knowledge.

    Essentially, you just put words in a straw man's hands and shoved them into your own mouth.
    Quote me where I say what you claim. Which is my assumption you get sick of it after 6 months

    Christ man, I even keep the option open I'll take to the new system. I expressed my hope that in 6 months everyone will be exploring.

    Read!

  15. #210
    Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post (Source)
    Quote me where I say what you claim. Which is my assumption you get sick of it after 6 months
    Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post (Source)
    Ok Ziljan, you already know this mechanism has longevity and in 6 months it won't have lost it's appeal for you.
    Here ya go. Here you are postulating that there would be some arbitrary 6 month window, after which the FSS will either have:

    a) lost its appeal
    b) not lost its appeal

    My response was to that hypothetical given what we KNOW ALREADY about the ADS and about the replay value of other new AAA games that actually cost money relative to that 6 month window. Nothing more. Then you saw the word "assume" used in a dry clinical sense regarding one of the two possible outcomes of your question, not attached to any person in particular, and you assumed it was used regarding your own personal belief system, and went immediately on the warpath.

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