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Thread: If I wanted a 'radio-tuning' game I would have rather bought an old radio.

  1. #1996
    Originally Posted by Juniper View Post (Source)
    You've clearly not used it much, have you.
    No he's right. There's only a few hooks into the fss:

    - You have to be rewards obsessed enough to focus on what you're getting rather than the experience of getting it. Take the rewards away and what's left?
    - You accept the inevitable of frontier god handing your game and try and make it work.

    See the problem is not the systems where you happen to see something in the spectrum that you're interested in.. its the systems where there is not....

    It doesn't take much bias towards favouring the experience vs video gameplay metrics for the fss to look completely bad. If all you care about is a means to a set of rewards of course its great its supermassive god mode. Hours of flying is now replaced by minutes of fidgeting.

  2. #1997
    Originally Posted by CMDR Karrde Sun View Post (Source)
    No he's right. There's only a few hooks into the fss:

    - You have to be rewards obsessed enough to focus on what you're getting rather than the experience of getting it. Take the rewards away and what's left?
    - You accept the inevitable of frontier god handing your game and try and make it work.

    See the problem is not the systems where you happen to see something in the spectrum that you're interested in.. its the systems where there is not....

    It doesn't take much bias towards favouring the experience vs video gameplay metrics for the fss to look completely bad. If all you care about is a means to a set of rewards of course its great its supermassive god mode. Hours of flying is now replaced by minutes of fidgeting.
    There's a failure to comprehend that what some people consider to be the moat awesome feature of the FSS is exactly what other people find to be the most terrible. It shouldn't be surprising that people who spent thousands of hours enjoying the old system are completely turned off by the new one.

  3. #1998
    Originally Posted by Old Duck View Post (Source)
    What you need is Elephant Rebuttal Leather.
    Bet is smells better than Elephant Buttal Leather....

  4. #1999
    Originally Posted by DrewCarnegie View Post (Source)
    There's a failure to comprehend that what some people consider to be the moat awesome feature of the FSS is exactly what other people find to be the most terrible. It shouldn't be surprising that people who spent thousands of hours enjoying the old system are completely turned off by the new one.
    Yeah. And i've always been live and let live.. i'm happy to change what i do around to accommodate new ideas. What's happened here though is the old method has been completely shut down. Its been removed from the game effectively. If it was plausible i could probably accept this, but i can't see any positive reason why. The only design reasons i can see are its gone to accomodate the bubble exemption pass and to force people to use the new feature. Its madness, one hand doesn't trust the new feature not to upset the majority demographic and nullifies its use completely while the other hand is force feeding it for some reason.

    Also, bumped into the exploration forum on the way out and the feedback has started as predicted. And its not us. These poor people have months of one sided pleading, rationalisation and conclusion to go through.

  5. #2000
    I'm currently way 'south' of the bubble, heading towards the region that is as far from Beagle Point as I can go. As usual I'm not using any external tools, I don't have a destination system (and will ignore any 'helpful' spoilers), I'm just seeing how far I can go.

    I saw a bright cluster of stars on the skybox and did a bit of investigating on the galmap to see if I could locate the source (usually the first signs of some distant nebula). This is fairly typical 'wayward wanderer' (me) exploration, I see an interesting looking thing on the skybox and try to reach it. This playstyle has not been affected by this update.

    Anyway I found the source & went there, a bunch of a dozen or so 'real' B-class stars in a small globular cluster, cool.
    A couple of the systems had neutron stars as their binaries and I didn't even notice until I looked at the sysmap after my now usual completion scanning. In an earlier visit to a nebula I had a similar circumstance with a black hole, where I only noticed it at all because of the light distortion on the skybox while I flew to map a planet orbiting the binary system (where the black hole also was).

    In another system a previous visitor had tagged what turned out to be every body except the one that was much further out (only 4,000ls or so, the rest were within 500ls of a K-class star I think). It was an Ammonia World, missed by every previous visitor using the old system, but the FSS literally told me it was in the system & all I had to do was locate it.

    The experience is not the same. Some things I can still do (like finding the globular cluster) and I still enjoy that, but surveying a system has now become a routine, mundane action. Perhaps this is how some felt about the old system because they weren't prepared to go to the lengths another player (me) was to find out what that distant brown-ish planet actually was.

    I'm pleased it's so popular, and I'm pleased it's opened up the rest of the galaxy to more players regardless of their motivation, but I miss the old ADS and it's all the more galling that it didn't need to go.

    I still have some motivation to explore areas I haven't visited before, but the FSS Scanner Screen isn't a part of that motivation where the old ADS was.

  6. #2001
    Originally Posted by Riverside View Post (Source)
    I'm currently way 'south' of the bubble, heading towards the region that is as far from Beagle Point as I can go. As usual I'm not using any external tools, I don't have a destination system (and will ignore any 'helpful' spoilers), I'm just seeing how far I can go.

    I saw a bright cluster of stars on the skybox and did a bit of investigating on the galmap to see if I could locate the source (usually the first signs of some distant nebula). This is fairly typical 'wayward wanderer' (me) exploration, I see an interesting looking thing on the skybox and try to reach it. This playstyle has not been affected by this update.

    Anyway I found the source & went there, a bunch of a dozen or so 'real' B-class stars in a small globular cluster, cool.
    A couple of the systems had neutron stars as their binaries and I didn't even notice until I looked at the sysmap after my now usual completion scanning. In an earlier visit to a nebula I had a similar circumstance with a black hole, where I only noticed it at all because of the light distortion on the skybox while I flew to map a planet orbiting the binary system (where the black hole also was).

    In another system a previous visitor had tagged what turned out to be every body except the one that was much further out (only 4,000ls or so, the rest were within 500ls of a K-class star I think). It was an Ammonia World, missed by every previous visitor using the old system, but the FSS literally told me it was in the system & all I had to do was locate it.

    The experience is not the same. Some things I can still do (like finding the globular cluster) and I still enjoy that, but surveying a system has now become a routine, mundane action. Perhaps this is how some felt about the old system because they weren't prepared to go to the lengths another player (me) was to find out what that distant brown-ish planet actually was.

    I'm pleased it's so popular, and I'm pleased it's opened up the rest of the galaxy to more players regardless of their motivation, but I miss the old ADS and it's all the more galling that it didn't need to go.

    I still have some motivation to explore areas I haven't visited before, but the FSS Scanner Screen isn't a part of that motivation where the old ADS was.
    Sounds like you might be where I was a month ago, give or take. It also sounds like you might be having a bit more fun of it that you're willing to admit, and that's ok. You are still able to fly out and see what that distant brown planet is - I regularly fly towards planets to see what they're like, up close, even map them at times, not because they have any detected POI's, but because I happen to like the look of them. If you haven't seen my threads "The Journey" and "The Journey Continues", you may want to take a look. They're a mix of scrapbook and narrative, all about exploration. Exploration of space, of the galaxy, and of the self.

    Personally, I have penchant for Water Worlds, if you can't tell from those threads. There are no POI's because we cannot visit them, but I still fly out to them, map them, orbit them, take screenshots of them and enjoy them, in all the same ways I would have before - if I could have stood to use the old point-and-wait system. But I couldn't. It was simply terrible, mind-numbingly tedious, especially in systems where the last planet in the system was somewhere between .5 Huttons and 1.5 Huttons from the entry point. Did I do it? Yes, more than once. Was it enjoyable? How enjoyable is it to point your ship in one direction, put your feet on the chair next to you, turn on Netflix and watch a movie? Or even take a nap, with an alarm set for 72 minutes, or 3 minutes before you were close enough to said planet to need to slow down, to point your ship at it and wait another 30-50 seconds for a scan to take place that looks like nothing more than a ring of triangles on your ship HUD, to populate some information on the second tab of your system map, that is largely meaningless data to anyone who isn't an atronomer? And you call the new method 'mundane'*? I've looked up two or three times at least what the Argument of Periapsis is (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_of_periapsis is you want to know). I still don't really know what it is, and I'm ok with that. It's not particularly important to me.

    As I've said, I cannot wrap my head around what there is to miss about the ADS. To me, it's like saying "I miss taking my chances catching polio.", "I miss carrying water half a mile from the stream and hoping I don't get cholera.", or "I miss having to rub sticks together to make fire so I don't die of exposure."

    Vaccines are good, clean water and plumbing are good. A lighter or match is good (and I'm a huge fan of suvival skills, and yes, I can make a fire with no modern tools, but wouldn't choose to on a normal basis).

    I like Progress. I don't care for it's opposite (Congress [yes, that was a political joke too]).

    Is the new system Perfect? Ehh.. I can see some areas for improvement, but compared to the old way... I could never go back.

    *munĚdane/ˌmənˈdān/
    adjective


    1. lacking interest or excitement; dull.




    I'm terrified of what you consider Thrilling.... world championship glacier-racing?

  7. #2002
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    Sounds like you might be where I was a month ago, give or take. It also sounds like you might be having a bit more fun of it that you're willing to admit, and that's ok. You are still able to fly out and see what that distant brown planet is - I regularly fly towards planets to see what they're like, up close, even map them at times, not because they have any detected POI's, but because I happen to like the look of them. If you haven't seen my threads "The Journey" and "The Journey Continues", you may want to take a look. They're a mix of scrapbook and narrative, all about exploration. Exploration of space, of the galaxy, and of the self.

    Personally, I have penchant for Water Worlds, if you can't tell from those threads. There are no POI's because we cannot visit them, but I still fly out to them, map them, orbit them, take screenshots of them and enjoy them, in all the same ways I would have before - if I could have stood to use the old point-and-wait system. But I couldn't. It was simply terrible, mind-numbingly tedious, especially in systems where the last planet in the system was somewhere between .5 Huttons and 1.5 Huttons from the entry point. Did I do it? Yes, more than once. Was it enjoyable? How enjoyable is it to point your ship in one direction, put your feet on the chair next to you, turn on Netflix and watch a movie? Or even take a nap, with an alarm set for 72 minutes, or 3 minutes before you were close enough to said planet to need to slow down, to point your ship at it and wait another 30-50 seconds for a scan to take place that looks like nothing more than a ring of triangles on your ship HUD, to populate some information on the second tab of your system map, that is largely meaningless data to anyone who isn't an atronomer? And you call the new method 'mundane'*? I've looked up two or three times at least what the Argument of Periapsis is (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_of_periapsis is you want to know). I still don't really know what it is, and I'm ok with that. It's not particularly important to me.

    As I've said, I cannot wrap my head around what there is to miss about the ADS. To me, it's like saying "I miss taking my chances catching polio.", "I miss carrying water half a mile from the stream and hoping I don't get cholera.", or "I miss having to rub sticks together to make fire so I don't die of exposure."

    Vaccines are good, clean water and plumbing are good. A lighter or match is good (and I'm a huge fan of suvival skills, and yes, I can make a fire with no modern tools, but wouldn't choose to on a normal basis).

    I like Progress. I don't care for it's opposite (Congress [yes, that was a political joke too]).

    Is the new system Perfect? Ehh.. I can see some areas for improvement, but compared to the old way... I could never go back.

    *munĚdane/ˌmənˈdān/
    adjective


    1. lacking interest or excitement; dull.




    I'm terrified of what you consider Thrilling.... world championship glacier-racing?
    I don't think anybody, not even Burke, has claimed that exploration using the ADS was thrilling or exciting. The ADS was a tool that opened up gameplay that I personally found relaxing and which gave me a sense of achievement. The FSS is now the gameplay, rather than the tool, and for me it gets in the way of my relaxing gameplay and doesn't provide the same sense of achievement.

    Happily, even if I get my wish (and optional module providing black-body information in the SysMap) your exciting/thrilling gameplay will still exist.

    If it helps, just think of us as trainspotters or stamp collectors. Not everybody wants to jump out of an airplane for fun, but there's no reason why ED couldn't let us all 'blaze our own trails'

  8. #2003
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    It also sounds like you might be having a bit more fun of it that you're willing to admit, and that's ok.
    I didn't read past this, because you clearly haven't been reading my posts IndigoWyrd. The new system is a two dimensional piece of another game cludged into this one. It feigns depth yet the meta is to burn past any subtlety & just completion scan with no skill or thought required, it lays bare all of the things while offering no more clues to where anything not marked by a POI may lie.

    The actual galaxy is a work of genius that I want to appreciate, the FSS only gets in the way of that without an ADS to accompany it. The ADS & interpreting the sysmap required some semblance of experience to interpret that was satisfying, the FSS is a simple, mindless chore that lacks imagination or scope and it is difficult to believe it was created by the same company as the stellar forge.

  9. #2004
    Yeah as a tool the fss is fine. I know for certain i would use it in the closing stages of exploring a system to finish up "discovering" once the experience for that system is up. Lazy mans mop up tool for a different breed of synergistic cherry picking.

    Unfortunately its been wedged in as a gate to this exploration content, but really counterintuitively the gatekeeper also kills the boss and provides all the rewards to you before you even start.

    Elite is a sandbox, and for people who had no interest in the past, the rewards are the content. Im certain these people are loving it and defending it as strongly as the people with issue. But its super inelegant to turn away all that were there before. Exploration is for combat players now? Might as well replace the system map with just tags and a bank of zoance logo. A new explorer welcomed into the fold thanked frontier and asked for hyperspace travel to be automated too to finish the deal

  10. #2005
    Originally Posted by Riverside View Post (Source)
    The actual galaxy is a work of genius that I want to appreciate, the FSS only gets in the way of that without an ADS to accompany it. The ADS & interpreting the sysmap required some semblance of experience to interpret that was satisfying, the FSS is a simple, mindless chore that lacks imagination or scope and it is difficult to believe it was created by the same company as the stellar forge.
    Well said. QFT.

  11. #2006
    I will confess that while I love the new FSS for exploration, I'm nowhere near as big a fan of it for identifying signal sources in populated systems, especially when I'm on combat-related missions. I prefer keeping my chocolate exploration out of my peanut butter combat.

  12. #2007
    Zomg i might have just worked it out... the fss IS the system map and nav panel. If you assume nothing else exists, and take in what you want out of it....

    Pending kicking the tyres and verification on pc i might be buying that ship kit after all. This feels somewhat good, though i probably shouldn't get my hopes up. Not that i think the game should support this absurd behaviour, but jonking is so much better under the fss regime. The neurotic time limit when you knew you were going to get violated out of the system map because the fsd charge would hit is gone, and you really don't notice the time during the travelling anymore. Its relaxing in contrast.

    Im trying.. im trying...

    Critical success factors so far: Don't honk in the fss. Honk while you're scooping, and break out in the direction of your jump if jonking or ANY direction if not! Do not discover the moons of gas giants at least before a leg of flight. Lone valuables get credits. For the visual sightseers: All close orbits will require an adaptive zoom.. without one its not going to be the screenshots you're looking for.

    The sandbox delight of rocking up to a gas giant, flash discovering the moons and being left to pure wonder what to do next is pretty good also.

    Saying again.. you have to forget the system map and nav panel exist. They are not options, save perhaps to check whether you have flashed all the moons and of course in the bubble.

  13. #2008
    Originally Posted by Old Duck View Post (Source)
    I will confess that while I love the new FSS for exploration, I'm nowhere near as big a fan of it for identifying signal sources in populated systems, especially when I'm on combat-related missions. I prefer keeping my chocolate exploration out of my peanut butter combat.
    Drop in to a nav beacon and scan it. It instantly resolves all signal sources for free, totally exempted!