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Thread: It's time to revisit the PVP rebuy. Distant Ganks 2 makes the point.

  1. #1531
    Originally Posted by Stigbob View Post (Source)
    I knew about modes and block before buying in, but didn't watch any trailers. Maybe that's why I don't regret the decision. I watch gameplay video's and check specifics like "can I opt out of playing with certain individuals ".

    Blocks been beefed up recently, you can now search and block players from the friends and groups tab of the main menu.

    As a rule I do prefer books to films.
    It's enjoyable watching you miss the point.. Keep it up.

    Powderpanic
    The Voice of Griefing

  2. #1532
    Originally Posted by Powderpanic View Post (Source)
    It's enjoyable watching you miss the point.. Keep it up.

    Powderpanic
    The Voice of Griefing
    I think I got my points across. Didn't give yours much thought.

  3. #1533
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)
    Without modes, all the currently dull and meaningless-because-they-are-unopposedable-by-player-interaction PVE mechanics would become meaningful potential-PVP mechanics, and a fleet headed out into the black to escape the upheavals of humanity would be the 1,053rd most interesting soft target for gankers. So DWE2 would not only exist, it would probably be a perennial event from the beginning.

    ^^^These are you first two false premises.

    The third false premise is that you're assuming you're safe outside of Solo. It seems fairly obvious that the gankers are planning a hurrah attack in PG to cause maximal damage just when explorers think they're safest. Probably using throw away alts that are untrackable since it doesn't take much to kill most explorers, especially the ones who eschewed my advice to build at least light but strong shields (1-2k deep depending on the speed of the ship), even if they are playing in Fleetcom PG.
    That'll do, Ziljan. That'll do.

  4. #1534
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    I think they'd appreciate consequences for their antagonists, yes, because lack of consequences is what empowers them to do what they do at the scale we see.

    Most PvPers (even the lowliest of 'granker' types) have more ship losses than less PvP oriented types. Even my CMDR, whom I play as someone that avoids ship loss by any legitimate in-game means, would simply never have lost any ships past a certain point, if not for being inclined to engage his peers in violent contests.



    No, I'm not.



    I'm not advocating any change to the established modes model. It's not the model I would have chosen, but it's here to stay and I am largely content with it.

    I am saying that Open, where there is no potential for significant loss to be incurred in PvP, would be functionally similar to Open PvE.



    Never made any statement to the contrary.



    Probably the best of a bad set of options would be to leave it as it is, yes.



    If they are unwilling to accept the caveats of Open, they shouldn't be in Open.

    Inclusion at all costs is not a good thing, especially if it dilutes or destroys the intended nature of the mode.



    Yes.



    Ideally, the consequences should be plausible. They fall well short of that currently, but at least they are there.

    I want these ships and equipment to come from somewhere. I want there to be a supply chain, with logistics and economics backing it up every step of the way, and I want shortfalls or gaps in continuity to be felt. I know I'm not going to get this, but to remove even the vague handwavium we have that supposed to represent these sort of things is not at all the direction I'd like to see the game go.

    The potential for consequence should be able to significantly shape player and CMDR behavior. Losing a ship should be a loss to be feared and avoided. Asset costs should be significant enough to be a deterrent at the very least, and ideally, enough to cripple a CMDR's progress if they insist on pressing through dangerous avenues without suitable tactics or tools.

    Attrition should be a thing, because it's a necessary control against recklessness (including wanton violence) in any setting with any real sense of verisimilitude.



    So close to zero as to be almost indistinguishable, relative to what it is, or what would be ideal from my perspective.

    On my entirely arbitrary consequence scale that I've just made up on the spot for the purpose of illustration, where the ideal is a 'ten', the current system is a '3', what you describe here would be a '0.2'.
    Forgive me if I mis -state your thoughtful responses. It seems like you would like the consequences to be more "real" given the genre.

    This is fundamentally a game, and the consequences (with ship and commander resurrection) are very gamey. I guess I would prefer more people participating in the experience than have a "real" experience. Don't think we can agree on our different valuations, but I respect your very reasonable opinion.

  5. #1535
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)
    Without modes, all the currently dull and meaningless-because-they-are-unopposedable-by-player-interaction PVE mechanics would become meaningful potential-PVP mechanics, and a fleet headed out into the black to escape the upheavals of humanity would be the 1,053rd most interesting soft target for gankers. So DWE2 would not only exist, it would probably be a perennial event from the beginning.
    Bollox I believe that's wishful thinking. Those soft targets could not be soft if the PvE structure was Open Only. Everyone would need to outfit for PvP. And that might be your preference, but it isn't for a lot of players. PvP is optional. Gankers will always go for events that draw attention. DWE2 draws attention, Salome drew attention. An event sporting 12,000 would not be perennial. That is ludicrous. That ignores the organisation that goes into it.

    I made a nice and easy list. Instead of waving your hand towards it's general direction try addressing them. Because "Without modes all events organised would revolve around combat. All other activities would become secondary." is according to your: " PVE mechanics would become meaningful potential-PVP mechanics". That's my point exactly. Your focus would be PvP first, all else secondary. Most players didn't buy this game to PvP. Most participants in DWE2 didn't sign up for PvP. Check out what these fellers are occupying themselves with:

    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumd...tant-Worlds-II

    And even you included "potential".

    Without modes, there wouldn't be a DWE2.
    Without modes all events organised would revolve around combat. All other activities would become secondary.
    Without modes Elite Dangerous would be a FPSS MMO.
    Without modes a small group of dedicated combat playes would be able to dictate term to a larger group not interested in combat,.
    Without modes, thousands of players would not be socialising right now. Debunking the claim the modes lessen player interaction.
    Without modes, waypoints would not be possible, since they would become killing zones. When wanting to meet up at a waypoint, high waking is no longer an option. They would be at the ganker's mercy.

    ^^^These are you first two false premises.

    The third false premise is that you're assuming you're safe outside of Solo. It seems fairly obvious that the gankers are planning a hurrah attack in PG to cause maximal damage just when explorers think they're safest. Probably using throw away alts that are untrackable since it doesn't take much to kill most explorers, especially the ones who eschewed my advice to build at least light but strong shields (1-2k deep depending on the speed of the ship), even if they are playing in Fleetcom PG.
    I assume nothing. I expect the hurrah attack. There are probably lying sacks of excrement in the PG waiting to strike. And I expect it near Beagle Point. And I expect a few casualties which will be blown up, will be reported as a great victory. It's unfortunate that there are players who deem that to be a great achievement, so yeah, I did factor in the pillocks. I hope everyone combat logs on them.

    edit: I would have eschewed your advice as well. I'd rather get blown up than have a ganker dictate how I play this game. (But for those interested, excellent advice)

    At least you did better than Jason who got nothing and only can go: yeah! Which I like, because apparently he didn't like my argument, but couldn't counter it. At least you tried.

    edit: meanwhile, PoutyPancake generously proved my point:
    Originally Posted by Powderpanic View Post (Source)
    Sadly, that didn't happen.... we have what we have.... and it's chugging away in caretaking mode......
    Powderpanic
    The Voice of Griefing
    Voice of griefing is sad.

    Good

  6. #1536
    Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post (Source)
    I expect the hurrah attack. And I expect it near Beagle Point. And I expect a few casualties which will be blown up, will be reported as a great victory.
    Absolutely this. It will be so original.
    Who can't see it coming?

  7. #1537
    Originally Posted by EUS View Post (Source)
    Absolutely this. It will be so original.
    Who can't see it coming?
    Best of all. Those who get PvPed, will probably have their accounts restored if the action is that predictable and predetermined.

    All those gankers jumping all those thousands of lightyears for nothing.

  8. #1538
    Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post (Source)
    Best of all. Those who get PvPed, will probably have their accounts restored if the action is that predictable and predetermined.

    All those gankers jumping all those thousands of lightyears for nothing.
    Indeed - as I understand it, Customer Support will handle each PvP destruction "event" in the FleetComm Private Group on a case-by-case basis - however participants have been advised to wait at the rebuy screen while they are awaiting consideration of their case.

  9. #1539
    Originally Posted by Stigbob View Post (Source)
    I got the impression he's advocating realistic expectations and some pre purchase research.
    I bought this game because there were videos about spaceships that do pew pew and go boom boom. Then I developed this forum addiction.

  10. #1540
    Originally Posted by Stigbob View Post (Source)
    I knew about modes and block before buying in, but didn't watch any trailers. Maybe that's why I don't regret the decision. I watch gameplay video's and check specifics like "can I opt out of playing with certain individuals ".
    Having modes was the deciding factor for me and many others to buy this game. Braben's comment mob-like strongarming would not be possible sealed the deal.

  11. #1541
    Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post (Source)
    Bollox and wishful thinking. Those soft targets could not be soft if the PvE structure was Open Only. Everyone would need to outfit for PvP. And that might be your preference, but it isn't for a lot of players. PvP is optional.

    An event sporting 12,000 would not be perennial. That is ludicrous. That ignores the organisation that goes into it.

    I made a nice and easy list. Instead of waving your hand towards it's general direction try addressing them. Because "Without modes all events organised would revolve around combat. All other activities would become secondary." is according to your: " PVE mechanics would become meaningful potential-PVP mechanics". That's my point exactly. Your focus would be PvP first, all else secondary. Most players didn't buy this game to PvP. Most participants in DWE2 didn't sign up for PvP. And even you included "potential". That is the wishful thinking part.

    Without modes, there wouldn't be a DWE2.
    Without modes all events organised would revolve around combat. All other activities would become secondary.
    Without modes Elite Dangerous would be a FPSS MMO.
    Without modes a small group of dedicated combat playes would be able to dictate term to a larger group not interested in combat,.
    Without modes, thousands of players would not be socialising right now. Debunking the claim the modes lessen player interaction.
    Without modes, waypoints would not be possible, since they would become killing zones. When wanting to meet up at a waypoint, high waking is no longer an option. They would be at the ganker's mercy.


    I assume nothing. I expect the hurrah attack. There are probably lying sacks of excrement in the PG waiting to strike. And I expect it near Beagle Point. And I expect a few casualties which will be blown up, will be reported as a great victory. It's unfortunate that there are players who deem that to be a great achievement, so yeah, I did factor in the pillocks. I hope everyone combat logs on them.

    edit: I would have eschewed your advice as well. I'd rather get blown up than have another player dictate how I play this game.

    At least you did better than Jason who got nothing and only can go: yeah! Which I like, because apparently he didn't like my argument, but couldn't counter it. At least you tried.

    edit: meanwhile, PoutyPancake generously proved my point:

    Voice of griefing is sad.

    Good
    My smart alecky response would be that the false premises I was referring to was that your list relied on you knowing anything about that which you wrote. Coincidentally, my serious response is basically the same. Why should I expound on that? Ziljan gave a detailed analysis and you just shot that down, so it's not like you're going to consider my analysis either. When someone who hasn't even bothered unlocking the engineers much less gotten into combat wants to shout down the considered opinions of players who have thousands and thousands of hours disecting combat as a martial art, there simply is no point in arguing with them.

  12. #1542
    Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post (Source)
    Best of all. Those who get PvPed, will probably have their accounts restored if the action is that predictable and predetermined.

    All those gankers jumping all those thousands of lightyears for nothing.
    You have this wrong.

    Thats not going to be the only motivation for the foks in DG.

    Mostly it's going to be the thrill of the hunt, and the thrill of the kill. Past that I very much doubt they care.

    Also I would'nt be surprised if they have gone for the veiws also. Just with added pewpew.

  13. #1543
    Originally Posted by jasonbarron View Post (Source)
    My smart alecky response would be that the false premises I was referring to was that your list relied on you knowing anything about that which you wrote. Coincidentally, my serious response is basically the same. Why should I expound on that? Ziljan gave a detailed analysis and you just shot that down, so it's not like you're going to consider my analysis either. When someone who hasn't even bothered unlocking the engineers much less gotten into combat wants to shout down the considered opinions of players who have thousands and thousands of hours disecting combat as a martial art, there simply is no point in arguing with them.
    Indeed.

    Because this game doesn't revolve around combat. My argument didn't revolve around combat.

    It revolves around having the option to avoid player vs player combat. PvP being optional instead of mandatory.

  14. #1544
    Originally Posted by jasonbarron View Post (Source)
    My smart alecky response would be that the false premises I was referring to was that your list relied on you knowing anything about that which you wrote. Coincidentally, my serious response is basically the same. Why should I expound on that? Ziljan gave a detailed analysis and you just shot that down, so it's not like you're going to consider my analysis either. When someone who hasn't even bothered unlocking the engineers much less gotten into combat wants to shout down the considered opinions of players who have thousands and thousands of hours disecting combat as a martial art, there simply is no point in arguing with them.
    He's right Ziggy.

    You're one smart man MR barron. Very smart. Well played. I totally dropped the ball on that aswell.

  15. #1545
    Originally Posted by TheMegaTurnip View Post (Source)
    As far as opposed factions go, I would'nt know where to begin for the PvE content, but then I can't say I've really done much PvE aside from engineer hooharr and money grinding so I'm certainly not the most educated on the subject as to offer anything meaningful, but I certainly agree, there should be content there for all parties.
    Having systems where both playstyles could work synonymously I beleive would be the dream, but I'm moer than aware how difficult something like that would be to pull off and keep both everyone at least slightly on board, and to not affect either parties chosen method. A very difficult thing to do.

    Oh no I agree. That was a naive thing to have done. Though thats not said out of disrespect for anyone involved, I just feel the author underestimated how the gaming community can be at times. Yeah the whole affair was a bit messey aye.
    Though the exploited ships issue and the network problems are chiefly to blame. There was always a risk of it happening, and I think either outcome would have been acceptable, had it happened on legitimate terms.

    Aye I somewhat agree. But then hopefully if such a thing was implemented then it would be more for the gameplay reasons than just the lore, though of course it would be nice to have some tie ins closer to the player, it is not an essential thing.

    The detatchment for the happenings in the universe though is certainly something I feel could do with being remedied.

    I know that despite being a murderous lunatic in game, I still enjoy listening to galnet and every now and then poking around some strange places provided I don't have to go too far, it would be nice if there was a little more connection to the things that are supposedly happening. Though I'm aware that would mean quite a lot more work for the developers so I don't expect it. It just is a little sad how opportunies to make good stories whilst including a large portion of people from both sides of the coin have been kind of fudged due, seemingly to time constraints, or on the odd occasion, just being missed opportunities.

    For instance unlocking Tharg weaponry could have seen players beset by the damnnable things on every jaunt across supercruise when transporting the materials, but they could be allowed to escape by other players in combat focused ships simply distracting them for long enough for the convoy to escape. It's quite simple and only off the top of my head but it serves a suitable example I guess.
    On the topic of "detachment from the universe" issue, the entire premise of this game, as envisioned and hard coded by DBOBE is that no single player or group of players is in any way a "big fish" in the galaxy or the game. Trying to leverage that is just going directly against the intent of the game's creator.
    Maybe I don't understand your meaning properly... I just wanted to clarify that we are - in a way - SUPPOSED to be detached from the universe and that it is entirely intended to be that way by fundamental design.
    Perhaps this is the most fundamental issue that the whole "Open Only" subscribers must face up to. Any "Open Only" design must, at its very core, still support the concept of all players being nothing but private citizens - small fry, if you will. Players cannot demand to grow beyond that basic premise imposed upon the design of the game by the game's maker, designer, creator, owner.

    Cheerz

    Mark H