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Thread: Relative Mouse mode

  1. #76
    To clarify a previous implication:

    When I refer to those who are 'exploiters' of relative mouse mode, I did not mean to imply it was an exploit in the ToS breaking sense. It is plainly not so. However, it does gain one some advantage through its usage, so people do 'exploit' it in the dictionary sense

  2. #77
    Originally Posted by Arguendo View Post (Source)
    The big at the end of it should have given it away as a joke
    And absolutely, the top PvPers in the game have spent an incredible amount of time to get where they are at. I guess the question is, would they have gotten to the same level having used a HOTAS in that time? All speculation, and no definitive answer, so I'll just leave it up there.


    I know of two at the top level; Sundae and Bazinga!, both using HOSAS afaik. There are a couple of up-and-comers that I know of right now, but they're not at the top quite yet. Still, that leaves less than a handful of them. That's gotta be for a reason right, or is it just a money thing you think?
    I think Grape is a twin stick user, too, and despite disagreeing with his comments on this thread I do have a lot of respect for him. Personally speaking, I don't go the twin stick route for the simple reason that I have very limited space on my desk and simply can't dedicate it for playing ED. Keyboard/gamepad/Wacom Tablet & stylus/mouse etc take up too much realstate to make the dual sticks practical. Currently trying to figure out where I'm going to put my new Cintiq when I get one lol

  3. #78
    Originally Posted by Earth Ultimatum IV. View Post (Source)
    I say we should remove the option to rebind pips. Why?
    The original idea was to have pips on the arrow keys. Rebinding them to more comfortable buttons removes the need to lift one of your hands off the mouse/keyboard to reach the pips. In my opinion this is overpowered and makes it too easy and is a cheat.
    What a nonsense. In the joystick-profile they are bind to the coolie-hat (c-o-o-l-i-e-h-a-t, do you know what that is?) You have no idea what the original intention was, because you obviously never played it the way it was intended. Have fun with your limited controls at docking.

  4. #79
    A lot of the arguments in this thread don’t really appear to be about relative mouse vs non-relative mouse FA-OFF/FA-ON at all.

    Instead, they’re the old “KBM gives people an unfair advantage over joystick/controller players”, which has been raging for years, and in no way confined to ED.

    And they’re also not the point the OP was trying to make with this thread.

  5. #80
    Originally Posted by nanite2000 View Post (Source)
    A lot of the arguments in this thread don’t really appear to be about relative mouse vs non-relative mouse FA-OFF/FA-ON at all.

    Instead, they’re the old “KBM gives people an unfair advantage over joystick/controller players”, which has been raging for years, and in no way confined to ED.

    And they’re also not the point the OP was trying to make with this thread.
    very fair point. thread is way off topic

  6. #81
    Originally Posted by DukeOnSteroids View Post (Source)
    I mean, this is exactly the point.. no one would control a spaceship with a mouse, because it is not flying around its messing around... be glad there grow no trees in space. So now...
    I wouldn't drive my car with a PS4 controller either but this is y'know... a game.

  7. #82
    Originally Posted by Red Anders View Post (Source)
    I wouldn't drive my car with a PS4 controller either but this is y'know... a game.
    Actually they have been known to be adapted for this exact purpose to allow amputees to drive, so technically they are used to drive.

  8. #83
    So let me get this straight. I always thought that the relative mode when in fa-off with mouse was just the same thing like resting the stick where it re-centers itself, without registering any counter moving in fa off.
    So what some people say here is, that relative mouse mode also adds the needed counter action when resting the mouse???
    So if i am not moving the ship at all and put fa-off with relative mode and i give a small push forward to the mouse with my finger, then the ship will NOT spin forever? Lol i must try this. If this is true then it explains alot.

  9. #84
    Originally Posted by Maro-Val View Post (Source)
    So let me get this straight. I always thought that the relative mode when in fa-off with mouse was just the same thing like resting the stick where it re-centers itself, without registering any counter moving in fa off.
    So what some people say here is, that relative mouse mode also adds the needed counter action when resting the mouse???
    So if i am not moving the ship at all and put fa-off with relative mode and i give a push forward to the mouse with my finger, then the ship will NOT spin forever? Lol i must try this. If this is true then it explains alot.
    Basically it's FA off, but FA on.

    Hence my comment about it being for newbs.

    Same as joystick curves. People just need to train that finesse as opposed to getting thier Pc to do the difficult bits for them.

  10. #85
    Originally Posted by Alexander the Grape View Post (Source)
    To clarify a previous implication:

    When I refer to those who are 'exploiters' of relative mouse mode, I did not mean to imply it was an exploit in the ToS breaking sense.
    Bloody well should be though xD

  11. #86
    Originally Posted by TheMegaTurnip View Post (Source)
    Basically it's FA off, but FA on.

    Hence my comment about it being for newbs.

    Same as joystick curves. People just need to train that finesse as opposed to getting thier Pc to do the difficult bits for them.
    What control method do you use, Turnip?

  12. #87
    Yes please, the game should have had the option to set the preferred control scheme per flight mode from the beginning.

  13. #88
    Originally Posted by Maro-Val View Post (Source)
    So let me get this straight. I always thought that the relative mode when in fa-off with mouse was just the same thing like resting the stick where it re-centers itself, without registering any counter moving in fa off.
    So what some people say here is, that relative mouse mode also adds the needed counter action when resting the mouse???
    So if i am not moving the ship at all and put fa-off with relative mode and i give a small push forward to the mouse with my finger, then the ship will NOT spin forever? Lol i must try this. If this is true then it explains alot.
    Is this really what happens ?
    If so then would it not be best to give Jstick the same software choice, so that placing the Jstick in the rest position applies the counter movement.
    If that defeats the object of FA-Off then remove the option for the mouse also.

  14. #89

    Relative vs Absolute mouse input is what a HOTAS/joystick has by default

    The microgimbal effect is there for any input user to at least have a chance at hitting modules at a distance. Which arguably is easier to do in FA-off, due to independent rotation and movement vectors.

    Mouse absolute is equivalent to "holding the stick in a certain phyiscal position".
    Mouse relative is equivalent to "tapping the stick in a certain phyiscal direction, then easing off the physical pressure to let the spring center the stick".
    So mouse input users wanting to toggle between absolute and relative is a rational request for the full range of input that joystick/HOTAS input users have by default due to the physical design of their input device.
    And it's this "leveling of the playing field" that seems to trigger joystick/HOTAS users. Not just on this forum; from hearsay I get the impression this thread's very civil compared to the mouse-phobic outrage on the Star Citizen forum.

    Joystick users have a massive advantage over controller and mouse users because they have innate haptic/tactile feedback on what heir current input is at.
    Controller and mouse users don't have that; they need to pay attention to (and get distracted by) a visual widget on screen if they want to have some feedback.

    Not to mention that mouse users have physical drift of their input device due to the way the mouse device physically works, regardless if it's working in absolute or relative mode.
    And a HOTAS, or just a joystick, does not have that issue; it's physically locked in place, does not move around when operated, and always has physical maximums that it operates at and the user can sense during operation.
    And that physical drift that a mouse device is subject to is one of the reasons (especially in hectic combat, with things like sidestrafing and rolling, where mouse gameplay isn't as simple as "move the nose of the ship up a tiny bit during undocking") that there's plenty of difficulty curve in "getting good" with a mouse in FA-off even if you allow toggling between relative/absolute mouse input.

    In fact, mouse users in both relative and absolute mode have issues with no physical restraints on the input maximum; typically causing varied physical device maximum overshoots - which makes the "it's so easy to just physically move your mouse back" argument null and void.
    In absolute mouse FA-on, players used to use Headlook as a way to center mouse input. Nowadays, three years later, it seems there's a seperate key binding option specifically for centering the mouse.
    So progress is being made in not sabotaging people's chosen input method.

    And finally; since a HOTAS is congruent with the way ships are being piloted in-game in-character, it's really the only way to go if you want to enjoy VR.

    Fact is, each input method has pros and cons.
    But to purposefully and vindictively want to sabotage another input method, or keep it gimped, because it's not your chosen one; territorialism kicking in and you feeling some kind of input-envy...

  15. #90
    Originally Posted by Maro-Val View Post (Source)
    So let me get this straight. I always thought that the relative mode when in fa-off with mouse was just the same thing like resting the stick where it re-centers itself, without registering any counter moving in fa off.
    Correct.

    So what some people say here is, that relative mouse mode also adds the needed counter action when resting the mouse???
    So if i am not moving the ship at all and put fa-off with relative mode and i give a small push forward to the mouse with my finger, then the ship will NOT spin forever? Lol i must try this. If this is true then it explains alot.
    Incorrect, the ship will spin forever. Some people believe otherwise, but they are wrong. Some others know that this auto-counterthrust does not happen, but still believe that relative-mouse FA-Off gives an unfair advantage regardless of that.

    FA-Off without relative mouse (or some equivalent centering system) would be somewhat like removing the springs that cause a joystick to return to the central position (though not exactly, because the joystick would still have a well-defined central position, even without the springs holding it there). I'm not aware of any HOTAS pilot who has decided to eliminate the "crutch" of spring-loading.