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Thread: Interdiction Dodgers

  1. #196
    Originally Posted by gogereaver View Post (Source)
    i have personally submitted to player interdiction just to drop to empty space its a bug it works on a peer to peer model and often fails.
    I've noticed this.

    got interdicted in a heavy traffic system for whatever reason, submitted and dropped to empty space. very unsatisfying.

    also anyone else get an occasional glichy interdiction minigame? The target bouncing all over the place and no real way to track it.

  2. #197
    Originally Posted by Darian View Post (Source)
    We only have zipping for and back between stations and call it trade because the Devs are up over there ears to make you can beat me up with your virtual spaceship inside my virtual spaceship more fun!

    that is why

    Now again, why would it be so bad to have OTHER stuff to do in an player populated world beside looking who can beat who with his internet spaceship.
    Here have an virtual cookie, you earned it!

    I had plenty of that "pvp" interaction over 20 years now, I want something ELSE than strutting around because i "defeated" someone with my non existing internet spaceship!

    Where is that economy simulation that is so immersive?

    Oh wait, we had to balance the Python for better PvP experience.

    Riiiiight.

    Look, all that a beats b beats c and c hires an killer to beat A is fun. For some time.

    But is it really so bad to have some content, some stuff to do beside toiling for outfitting an better internet spaceship to have another victory that means 2 minutes later nothing at all?


    and i do not buy that non pvp content only is good once, the art making an good single player game is in making things the player loves to do over and over again.
    Hell, I played the first DragonAge game five times because it was fun to explore all the permutations, it is immersive and so full of things that you do not see the third time playing it.

    And now picture something like that with 3000 people inside who by just beeing around give everything another meaning, each time.

    But we can not have that because only PvP sells.

    I do not know, it is nearly an dirty word on the internet, but could we have too you know something that like... taxes our intelligence, not just our joystick.. excuse, HOTAS?

    I know i know, it is so outdated to have SOMETHING ELSE beside who has the bigger p.. ehh sorry GUN and is faster with it and so more manly and whatnot.

    And probably does not net so much more money than putting all into the PvP.

    Because we all know only the money makes an game great, if it earns 5% less IT CAN NOT BE AN GOOD GAME!

    I want f.. content, something that taxes more than my trigger finger dammit.

    We sacrified realistic space flight models, we have spaceships who have SPEEDLIMITS, now could we please have something ELSE that has nothing to do with who is the "top gun" in an totally meaningless way no one is really interested in?

    there are already plenty of games where it is the only thing to do, so Elite Dangerous has to be a clone of them or it is not good?

    Yes, PvP can and should be PART of it, but the way it goes right now it will be for a long long time the ONLY thing worth doing because the developers are poked to put a lot of work into it.

    I think i go an play some Civ games, computer opponent at highest setting, he will beat the crap out of me but at least it will be something challenging my mind and not wearing only out my saitek.
    You are for sure blaming to much on pvp and not enough directly on frontier. The PVP content is even thinner than the solo PVE content. And the group pve content is best played in solo mode. Now that is frontier development for you.

  3. #198
    Originally Posted by SE-Apocalypse View Post (Source)
    It rare that you can hit with gimbals when you can not hit with fixed at least if throttle and distance are properly managed.
    Depends on the ship and the maneuvering being done. Gimbals can hit significantly off bore, which can be a large advantage if both pilots are doing their best to line up a shot while avoiding damage in the process. Also, some ships like the Cobra and Imperial Clipper have hardpoint placements that are not very conducive to fixed weapon fire against smaller targets.

    That said, I agree that MatTheCat's scenario is and overly optimistic one for most combat between gimbaled vs. fixed equipped CMDRs. A better bet is to learn to aim the weapons yourself, so that when faced with chaff, you can deselect your target and not be totally helpless to do harm.

  4. #199
    Originally Posted by Darian View Post (Source)
    the art making an good single player game is in making things the player loves to do over and over again.
    Quite. All I really wanted was a single player experience that was 20 years on from Frontier. ED is fun and all but that is 'despite' not because of the online nature of the implementation.

    What we have is a sort of late 1980's Elite with modern graphics and other people supposedly standing in for some components. It's not what I wanted but it has the essential core Elite gameplay that makes it fun despite everything. But i'd still swap every other human player for good NPC AI.

    Failing that I simply don't care if shield cells or whatever 'unbalance' Anaconda on Anaconda PvP. In fact I welcome the fact shield cells lets players who are 50, 60 or 70 years old have a chance to survive attack or perform assassination missions. This game isn't only for the young or PvP and if a minority and peripheral gameplay mode isn't optimised I don't care.

    As for unbalanced PvP, if and when I encounter it, I'll play the cards I'm given instead of insisting the dealer gathers up everyone's cards and keeps dealing until I'm happy.

  5. #200
    Originally Posted by Spacejanitor View Post (Source)
    Why do we need to cut the game and the community in half when we could develop it so that both parties could enjoy it?
    You know why, because the bigger part of the PvP community will not calm down before group and solo is gone and every single trader is forced to ditch his lumbering slow undershielded Lakoon for an spaceship that can defend itself.
    THEN when everyone has about the same ship or is gone from the game they will have so much pvp fun!

    A colorfull playerbase with different interests and who does different things does not work as soon PvP comes into the picture because the guys with the bigger guns always call the shots.

    That is nature.

    But boring too.

    You will not see big tradeships, and you will not have an colorfull community playing because everyone who is not geared for fight will leave.

    In reality, if you do not police, if you do not level the playingfield by artifical means you get the same you have in somalia, a few Warlords and a lot of bombed out buildings.

    That is human nature if it can express itself freely.

    Even in EVE you have rules who are there to prevent it, Guild wars are ruled by laws set in stone, exact for that reason.

    And to be honest, EVE is much warfare fun, but has nothing much else to offer beside the warfare.

    I was there, i got the t shirt and i left because i was plain and simpel bored.

    There is nothing to do but to build up for the next war.

    and now it is the same in elite, you make the funds to make the boom.. yay!

    Yes we can play solo and we can play group, but with the PvP players the only viable playerbase do you really think there will be game mechaniks that allow player interaction outside of dog fights?
    Oh yes offcourse, we can chat.
    How novel, no other internet service offers chats!

    I hope you see my point, I was hoping that it will be an game with things to do beside only things catering to pvp battles, but i was wrong.

  6. #201
    Originally Posted by Dr. Hans Reinhardt View Post (Source)
    +1

    Murder does not simply go away.
    Well here is something to contemplate....

    You destroy a ship, killing it's CMDR and fictional crew.... Then shoot off at 30 times C.... do a big loop and when you get back you arrived before you even opened your hardpoints.

    Tis it my imagination or has something gone wrong with Newtonian physics....??

    CMDR NeoN HaZe

  7. #202
    Originally Posted by Darian View Post (Source)
    We sacrified realistic space flight models, we have spaceships who have SPEEDLIMITS, now could we please have something ELSE that has nothing to do with who is the "top gun" in an totally meaningless way no one is really interested in?
    Correction!

    For me, no pVp then no point in the game.

    Sure, I would love it if the auto-generated missions actually made any sense or were even logical in any way.

    Better still if the NPC vessels actually reacted towards me in a way that actually reflected what factions I happen to be aligned, through the sheer coincidence of the random missions that I happened to complete.

    Better even than that would be if their actually was a real economy, that was actually affected by CMDR and NPC trade traffic.

    There are lots and lots of things that could be done that would make the game great, but without the pVp element to the game, none of it would matter.

    Perhaps running a vessel around shipping 100T of a product some 50 light years away to make a 25% mark up is your idea of fun, but I would suggest without pVp elements to the game, such an activity would be seen as pointless to the majority of the Elite Frontier gaming demographic. It only means something cos with the profits, you can get a bigger meaner vessel and beat the other guy up with it.

    FD need to polish up and fix the very limited pVp that does exist, and then implement further human interaction elements to the game, especially focusing on co-operative elements in the game. As things stand, 'interaction' with other CMDRs generally means being robbed/attacked, which is a waste of huge amounts of potential.

  8. #203
    Originally Posted by SE-Apocalypse View Post (Source)
    You are for sure blaming to much on pvp and not enough directly on frontier. The PVP content is even thinner than the solo PVE content. And the group pve content is best played in solo mode. Now that is frontier development for you.
    No, the pvp crowd has fault there too, it is loudest and focuses development onto "balancing ships for pvp" (exept freighters off course or our pirate friends throw an fit)
    Elite still crawls with bugs post release, ok, no blame, it takes time to make such an thing run, but with the Devs in work over there ears they take the time to blance the Pythin for PvP.
    Do you get the picture ? Balancing ships is important while bugs are ironed out.

    We have still bug death inside station but the devs are hard at work implementing wings.

    Oh an if you do not pull in your landing gear drag reduces your speed to 1/3

    <facedesk>

    In space!

  9. #204
    Originally Posted by MatTheCat View Post (Source)
    Chaff?

    Ok, hold off fire whilst chaff is in effect, power up Lasers whilst manoeuvreing right out the way of your Fixed Lasers, wait for Chaff to wear off....then let burst with gimballed or turreted weaponry, whilst spinning around all over the shop making it very hard for you to line up your Fixed Lasers.

    Perhaps ED should have made the game so that high skill level with basic weapons beats low skill with high powered weapons....but from what I can see, they haven't.

    Edit: and If I am not mistake, Chaff does nothing to shake of Kinetic based weaponry, right? (I am very sure that I see my turreted Multi Cannons batter into chaff clouded opponents as I take the 'chaff break' opportunity to manoeuvre myself into a more favourable position.
    Chaff shakes off all gimballed weapons. You can wait and charge your power, then when you shoot, I chaff again. 2xChaff banks works fairly well. As Morbad said, it's not *that* hard to hit with fixed weapons.

    Alternitavely, in smaller ships, I chaff as soon as you fire, while firing back. When it clears I boost away, and try to force it into a jousting match. If I can evade your fire by smart flying, even one bank of chaff is more than enough.

    In any case, never had any problems with CMDRs using gimbals. It's the fixed ones/dumbfire missle/rail gun ones that I have to be careful with.

  10. #205
    Originally Posted by Darian View Post (Source)
    No, the pvp crowd has fault there too, it is loudest and focuses development onto "balancing ships for pvp" (exept freighters off course or our pirate friends throw an fit)
    Elite still crawls with bugs post release, ok, no blame, it takes time to make such an thing run, but with the Devs in work over there ears they take the time to blance the Pythin for PvP.
    Do you get the picture ? Balancing ships is important while bugs are ironed out.

    We have still bug death inside station but the devs are hard at work implementing wings.

    Oh an if you do not pull in your landing gear drag reduces your speed to 1/3

    <facedesk>

    In space!

    I am of the pvp crowd and so far I have been only complaining about bugs and lack of pve content in this game ;-)
    Mainly because I do not see this game ever fixing pvp anyway. And if you look at the ship balancing than the type-6 for example is already an super OP freighter with stronger shields than a cobra of the same price, etc
    The complette ship balance seems to be literally non-existant and furthermore the wings option is mainly a pve feature, not a pvp feature. For PVP getting into the same instance and joining via the frameshift wakes is working fine... well except for the bugs that you are ending up with only half-way into those instances with seeing only half the stuff, etc. That is another case of bugs, but wings itself are more a pvp feature really.

    You really seem to use PVP just as an excuse to not be much more angry at frontier, even when it would be your good right to be angry at them for releasing such a broken game. "Elite: Rebirth" would be a more fitting title

  11. #206
    Originally Posted by Tigga View Post (Source)
    Chaff shakes off all gimballed weapons. You can wait and charge your power, then when you shoot, I chaff again. 2xChaff banks works fairly well. As Morbad said, it's not *that* hard to hit with fixed weapons.

    Alternitavely, in smaller ships, I chaff as soon as you fire, while firing back. When it clears I boost away, and try to force it into a jousting match. If I can evade your fire by smart flying, even one bank of chaff is more than enough.

    In any case, never had any problems with CMDRs using gimbals. It's the fixed ones/dumbfire missle/rail gun ones that I have to be careful with.
    I will investigate this....

    Maybe I just amn't coming up against strong enough opposition because my experience so far is that if my opponent has pulse lasers, then i win.

  12. #207
    Originally Posted by MatTheCat View Post (Source)
    Perhaps running a vessel around shipping 100T of a product some 50 light years away to make a 25% mark up is your idea of fun, but I would suggest without pVp elements to the game, such an activity would be seen as pointless to the majority of the Elite Frontier gaming demographic. It only means something cos with the profits, you can get a bigger meaner vessel and beat the other guy up with it.
    I never said remove pvp, but give it a meaning.
    And it can only have meaning if there are other things to do than hauling goods to make money to have an bigger fighter ship.

    And !

    That is an big thing!

    Blowing up freighters should have consequences beside an 13 year old in an basement giggling because he PWND THE TRADERZ DOODZ!!!1!!!11!

    I want trading ships beefed up, so they are realistic.
    You have an universe that is cut throat and then you have paper thin walled traders with squirt guns traveling around.

    Hear my suspense of disbelief snapping, HARD?

    Fighters flying escort for space truckers will not happen, the tenth time they escort and nothing happens even the most hard core pvp player who is into escort service will log of and watch gilligan island rerun because it will look SEXY compared.

    We need missions where you need an firghter or two, and four of five escort fighters to deliver goods to that station there with lot of hostiles around, and if they deliver there is pay out.

    So an attack WILL happen.


    But then we need pure economy simulation, something to please people not into PvP too because i gurantee you, you will end with only pvp people on the server and you will get bored.

    I tried it out, there is no community or colorfull life with only one sort of player in the game.

    You need the artsy carebears too or you end running the same stuff over and over.

  13. #208
    Originally Posted by MatTheCat View Post (Source)
    I will investigate this....

    Maybe I just amn't coming up against strong enough opposition because my experience so far is that if my opponent has pulse lasers, then i win.
    Maybe you are hitting mostly players with pve bounty hunting ships?

  14. #209
    Originally Posted by Darian View Post (Source)
    No, the pvp crowd has fault there too, it is loudest and focuses development onto "balancing ships for pvp" (exept freighters off course or our pirate friends throw an fit)
    Elite still crawls with bugs post release, ok, no blame, it takes time to make such an thing run, but with the Devs in work over there ears they take the time to blance the Pythin for PvP.
    Do you get the picture ? Balancing ships is important while bugs are ironed out.

    We have still bug death inside station but the devs are hard at work implementing wings.

    Oh an if you do not pull in your landing gear drag reduces your speed to 1/3

    <facedesk>

    In space!
    I take that not to be drag but the on-board computer speed limiter.

  15. Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. #210
    Lead Designer- Elite: Dangerous Frontier Employee
    Hello Commanders!

    A few points to hopefully let you guys know what our feelings are currently on a few of the issues raised in this thread:

    * Ghost interdiction
    : interdiction ending with no other vessels present - this sounds very much like a bug, so please ticket. In general, if an interdiction completes (either because of submission or the interdictor winning) then both ships should be pushed into the same space. I can't really think of any circumstance where this should not be the case.

    * Submission escape: we are looking into two potential solutions to the ability for ships to submit then charge their frame shift five seconds later.

    First though, a rationale as to why we have submission: we want authority ships to be able to drop players out of super cruise, in order that they can scan them. If authority ships can't do this, then smuggling loses some of its excitement. On the other hand, we don't want authority interdictions to damage the ships involved if the Commander is willing to submit to scanning. We also don't want to leave players with a significant cooldown afterwards.

    Solution one is to allow the interdictor device to have some sort of FSD delaying attack in normal space, that is temporarily disabled when the device is used for a successful interdiction. So submitting Commanders would be at risk of this attack, whilst Commanders that fought the interdiction would not (but instead would have to contend with their frame shift cool down).

    An added benefit would be that the interdictor could be used outside of interdiction.

    Solution two would be to remove submission and instead update the AI to be able to demand Commanders to drop of their own accord so that the authority ships could drop out onto them and scan.

    Both solutions are non-trivial, both have pros and cons. No ETA, but we are working towards fixing this exploit.

    There's also one other interesting point to note. If you submit to interdiction simply to escape back to super cruise there is nothing preventing your assailant from repeatedly dragging you back down. If you fight and successfully evade interdiction, your aggressor is dropped into normal space with a forty second frame shift cool down...

    * Chaff is too powerful: Chaff launcher capacity is being reduced (and the munitions is being made more expensive). Like a few other modules that use resources, our initial numbers managed to get out of line with other module balancing passes.

    * Murder is not serious enough: This is an interesting one that has a couple of different strands to unpick. Firstly, we are looking to add in a future update a change that will cause any bounty claimed to become a special, non-expiring fine for the perpetrator. The idea is that when you commit a crime you are expected to pay at some point. Currently some game play flow options remove the bounty completing when you are killed, which is not what we want.

    It's also worth noting that a bounty is not simply a fine to pay (otherwise it would be called a fine). It is also a green light for you to be attacked. In fact, this is undoubtedly the more serious part of the punishment. I think we still have some way to go to tweak background events to pick up on Commander bounties more (as in, when you fly around with a bounty the game takes it into account when deciding what to generate in the game world near you).

    We already have a system that keeps bounties alive when you are killed but they are not claimed (dormant bounties). I just think it would be too punishing to have bounties that kept on being active after respawning. Sure this would not be an issue for the tiny minority of super wealthy Commanders, but our data suggests that losing a ship is a non-trivial event for the majority of pilots - and having a more or less permanent target on your back would likely just stop people committing crimes. That's my current take, anyway.

    We are considering bounty adjustments based on some difference metric between Commanders (for example, Elite Commanders getting slapped with a bigger bounty when attacking lower rated pilots, or perhaps based on ship strength).

    * Combat Logging
    : unfortunately there isn't a panacea we can apply to make it go away. We're investigating various options to mitigate the issue. I can't really add anything more at this point in time, other than to say that we're aware of the issue and we're looking at what we can do to both "escapee" and "victor" to improve the situation.

    * Moar player interaction for players that aren't fans of PVP: We want to see more stuff that has players working together in some meaningful fashion, with meaningful game world responses, as much as the next Commander. Various options are in the "big list of cool stuff". We have to take things one step at a time though, making sure what we have works to the best of its ability and has the foundations to support additional game play.

    So, I hope this helps clarify things a little for you folk! I'll finish with the note that just because we don't get into every thread on the forums doesn't mean we aren't aware or dismissive of issues raised. Forum interaction is actually relatively costly for us, so we have to pick our moments for maximum effect And remember, feedback (as long as it's polite) is always appreciated!