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Thread: Multicrew rewards should be based on your rank

  1. #1

    Multicrew rewards should be based on your rank

    Hello.

    I'll try to be brief, and I know I will not manage. So I'll organize this in spoilers.

    Too Long, Dont Read summary: Multicrew high rewards can destroy the magic of this game for new players. I propose that the multicrew rewards are based on the player's most appropiate rank.


    And now, the arguments:

    Introduction: "The joy of discovering this game"

    Some time ago, my elder sister (40+ years old) played ED for the first time. She ended up quitting, as there was "too much information to learn".
    However, about 2 months ago she came back, and played her own way: She has been learning how to fly, how to do missions, how to tune up her ship and how to survive in the void. She decided to go weaponless and to learn just how to dodge the enemy.
    Doing that she ended up in the top 25% of the CG about rescuing escape pods.

    Seeing her little stories on facebook is a joy: It made me remember how it was to get into Elite dangerous for the first time: The joy of earning your first million credits, when you get a ship you really enjoy flying for the first time... Wow, those were the days, commanders!


    The money grinding: How easy-money kills this game.

    At the early days of Elite Dangerous there was an idiom that described very well how it was this game: "money calls for more money". And, originally, this worked brilliantly! When your best ship was a Cobra, you would gladly spend three hours gathering rares in a risky trip to earn two million credits! When you could affort a type 7, it was perfectly normal to make about half a million credits every trade loop. And when you own a fully A graded Anaconda is perfectly understandable that, when you get in a haz res zone, you will earn a few million credits every hour. Because you are the best of the best, you earned your way there and you deserved that money!

    In my opinion, known 'money grinding' systems like Sothis or Ceos have killed this feeling of accomplishment. Now you can make tens of millions of credits in two hours with an ASP explorer... delivering poop. Yahoo? I have never ever done a single one of these trips because of this reason. I really prefer to spend two weeks going a round trip to Colonia carrying a bunch of snob passengers and come back for 100 million credits, rather than spending three hours carrying poop for 30 millions.


    Multicrew: How a new born pilot can get millions of credits without any merit.

    So I joined today a Federal Corvette that was doing combat zone missions. After one hour playing with these commanders I disconnected and got more than 600k credits. Not bad at all!
    But come again, I am a very veteran pilot. My combat rank is dangerous, I am considered a Pathfinder in the exploration circles, and an entrepreneur among the trade guilds. Hell, I am a goddamn veteran from many wars, including the Lugh Independence war! I have smuggled vital goods through blockades done by the SDC, I have traced a route through the Formidine Rift, I mapped the Heisenberg bridge for materials to sintetize jumponium, and I have found trade routes that should be named after me! I have mapped hundreds of kilometers of Merope 5C in search for any alien activity, I dogfighted around and through Federal Farragut Battlecruisers, and I have engaged against the SDC in my courier to protect the Canon Scientists!

    I deserved this money! I am a very competent commander and I have proven this many, many times!

    But what about a new pilot?
    How about a "mostly harmless" commander? What happens when this commander joins a multicrew mission and gets exactly the same rewards as I?

    Me? I don't care.
    Him? He will loose the feeling of discovery, of accomplishment. Why searching the best way to avoid pirates when doing trade routes when you can join an smuggling crew? Why finding out how to survive in a combat zone when you can join a federal corvette and get better rewards? Why learning how to find your way to the center of the galaxy when you can join a commander doing so and, also, getting more money? Why bothering learning how hard the galaxy is... when you can simply be a hologram in someone else's ship and get better rewards?


    Searching for a gunner and a fighter pilot. Payments according to performance.


    My proposal is simple: the payment a commander gets should be capped by his/her pilot's federation most appropiate rank. This makes sense in two ways:

    1) From a roleplaying game point of view, it makes sense that if a harmless pilot joins my crew, I will pay him less. After all, he is a rookie! "Hell kid, you ar lucky enough to be joining the Star Dweller and learning from me, don't even dare to ask for extra money!"
    2) From a gameplay point of view, it encorages new players to learn faster ways to earn money.

    The final objective is that new players with multicrew will have the same stories that veteran players have: I have made my own path in the galaxy, and I have already proven it. How about you, kid?


    And that's all. See? I told you I would NOT be brief .

  2. #2
    "Me? I don't care."

    And yet here is a giant wall of text about how much you absolutely care how much others earn. That's a pattern I've noticed. People love to say they don't care, and then immediately care about someone else's wealth.

    Friend, do not covet your neighbour's oxen, it is not healthy for your mental state.

  3. #3
    This game has learned many things from other games in the genres.

    You allow money acquisition not to be a complete grind, bore, and stump your enjoyment - easy money allows you to take more risks and allows you to recover quickly, otherwise losing that Anaconda with no re-buy would probably mean it will be in your uninstalled pile in Steam.

    The other is cumbersome money-sinks that required raid guilds in World of Warcraft to grind money for a whole week just so they could repair their gear after 5 hours in one dungeon in one night - hence why the repair and maintenance bills were sharply lowered in this game, because no one wants to acquire wealth to then only spend it on fixing their ships for hundreds or millions of credits at a time.

    These are the two reasons, above all in most games, that either allows a game to thrive, or out-right kill it for casual players (whom, no doubt though only my opinion, make up 90% of the game's customers).

    Multi-crew is doing the right thing. Despite a n00b amassing enough wealth to buy an Anaconda, he or she is still a n00b and can just as easily lose the ship he or she cannot fly properly. Many people who struggle with the game will now have an opportunity to learn how the game works, and this improves ease of access for friends and family.

    It should be implemented how Frontier want to originally implement it, and not change at all. There is a compromise already in place and it is the denial of Rank progress for those joining a ship. Just leave it as that.

  4. #4
    ^^ this.
    Don't worry, new player will still see the magic of this game from their anaconda. It's not because you put yourself to mine/trade in a cobra for one year that everyone else had to it to discover your "magic".

  5. #5
    I don't really care either.


  6. #6
    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    "Me? I don't care."

    And yet here is a giant wall of text about how much you absolutely care how much others earn. That's a pattern I've noticed. People love to say they don't care, and then immediately care about someone else's wealth.

    Friend, do not covet your neighbour's oxen, it is not healthy for your mental state.
    Why covert the neighbor's oxen when I can covet my own?


  7. #7
    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    "Me? I don't care."

    And yet here is a giant wall of text about how much you absolutely care how much others earn. That's a pattern I've noticed. People love to say they don't care, and then immediately care about someone else's wealth.

    Friend, do not covet your neighbour's oxen, it is not healthy for your mental state.
    I am not talking just about money, but about how learning how to get it is part of this game's early fun.

    Do you ever read? If I wanted easy money I'll be doig ceos, so this or similar. I'm talking about something else here.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by CMDR Dreamstate View Post (Source)
    This game has learned many things from other games in the genres.

    You allow money acquisition not to be a complete grind, bore, and stump your enjoyment - easy money allows you to take more risks and allows you to recover quickly, otherwise losing that Anaconda with no re-buy would probably mean it will be in your uninstalled pile in Steam.

    The other is cumbersome money-sinks that required raid guilds in World of Warcraft to grind money for a whole week just so they could repair their gear after 5 hours in one dungeon in one night - hence why the repair and maintenance bills were sharply lowered in this game, because no one wants to acquire wealth to then only spend it on fixing their ships for hundreds or millions of credits at a time.

    These are the two reasons, above all in most games, that either allows a game to thrive, or out-right kill it for casual players (whom, no doubt though only my opinion, make up 90% of the game's customers).

    Multi-crew is doing the right thing. Despite a n00b amassing enough wealth to buy an Anaconda, he or she is still a n00b and can just as easily lose the ship he or she cannot fly properly. Many people who struggle with the game will now have an opportunity to learn how the game works, and this improves ease of access for friends and family.

    It should be implemented how Frontier want to originally implement it, and not change at all. There is a compromise already in place and it is the denial of Rank progress for those joining a ship. Just leave it as that.
    Alright.

    Let's say your level 10 wow char would be able to join a party with a level 90 character and get exactly the same reward than him (money wise)

    Now better: imagine this new character could do so without any risk of death at all.

    That's exactly what happens right now with mc.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Dbrn47 View Post (Source)
    Why covert the neighbor's oxen when I can covet my own?

    https://68.media.tumblr.com/582ac648...rncdo1_250.gif
    This.

    Stop implying I'm complaining like "oh people earn money easier than I did" because that is not the point.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by M. Volgrand View Post (Source)
    I am not talking just about money, but about how learning how to get it is part of this game's early fun.

    Do you ever read? If I wanted easy money I'll be doig ceos, so this or similar. I'm talking about something else here.
    It's not really your job to worry about others enjoyment, that's the only issue with your post. If you want to make it your job, don't bring along anyone for a ride, or if you do, purposely navigate to the abysmal rewards section of the Elite game play library. The onus is on the individual to play the game in a way that is conducive to their enjoyment. I don't think that your idea is a big ask or one that doesn't make any sense, its just that your concern shouldn't be one.

    Developer enforced handicaps to multiplayer based on levels or ranks serve to tarnish experiences, not enhance them. It's not a competitive environment, leaving it up to the player to progress at whatever pace they are looking for is the best way to go (within the design of course, I'm not saying instant billion buttons are okay). If the person feels they are moving too fast, let them decide to opt out. If they enjoy being boosted, let them do it. There is no ending to the game, so there is no harm in people rushing to whatever it is they want to rush to. In fact, for some, the journey actually begins after everything you are worried about them rushing through.

    What you're doing is offering a solution to what may not even be a problem for people in question. Unwanted help is usually far from appreciated, especially when it comes to others enjoyment of something.

  11. #11
    A player - veteran, in the middle, new - figures out how to make 10 million credits per hour. Great. Still that maxed out Cutter costing 1.2 billion for just one ship makes this earning potential relatively insignificant. Depending upon the play style and goals there is plenty of experience to be enjoyed while making it a little easier to earn credits. I don't see a loss but instead a different way of experiencing the game all for a specific player's enjoyment. Your results may vary.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Dbrn47 View Post (Source)
    It's not really your job to worry about others enjoyment, that's the only issue with your post. If you want to make it your job, don't bring along anyone for a ride, or if you do, purposely navigate to the abysmal rewards section of the Elite game play library. The onus is on the individual to play the game in a way that is conducive to their enjoyment. I don't think that your idea is a big ask or one that doesn't make any sense, its just that your concern shouldn't be one.

    Developer enforced handicaps to multiplayer based on levels or ranks serve to tarnish experiences, not enhance them. It's not a competitive environment, leaving it up to the player to progress at whatever pace they are looking for is the best way to go (within the design of course, I'm not saying instant billion buttons are okay). If the person feels they are moving too fast, let them decide to opt out. If they enjoy being boosted, let them do it. There is no ending to the game, so there is no harm in people rushing to whatever it is they want to rush to. In fact, for some, the journey actually begins after everything you are worried about them rushing through.

    What you're doing is offering a solution to what may not even be a problem for people in question. Unwanted help is usually far from appreciated, especially when it comes to others enjoyment of something.
    Are you kidding me?
    We play the Beta to provide feedback about it.

    Well, guess what? This is my feedback.

    I am very happy if you agree or disagree, and I'm very happy to debate about it. But, paraphrasing your words, it's not really your job to tell me what I should or shouldn't do.

    Originally Posted by Hooplah View Post (Source)
    A player - veteran, in the middle, new - figures out how to make 10 million credits per hour. Great. Still that maxed out Cutter costing 1.2 billion for just one ship makes this earning potential relatively insignificant. Depending upon the play style and goals there is plenty of experience to be enjoyed while making it a little easier to earn credits. I don't see a loss but instead a different way of experiencing the game all for a specific player's enjoyment. Your results may vary.
    When you are advanced in the game, right, you need hundreds of millions.
    But my point is about new players: When we started playing, to reach the milestone of 1 million credits was an experience worth bragging on the net (hell, you can still see that in facebook groups). However Multicrew allows new players to gather millions in a matter of hours.

    I strongly believe that this will be bad for newer player in long term.

  13. #13
    The OP is totally correct in his basic ideas, and the responses so far are lazy and aimed at nothing but some vague personal stuff.

    This is the beta forum. We discuss the new stuff here. We also discuss a little something like 'balance' here. If there was a big red button that gave everyone a trillion credits, that would be poor game design. Responding with 'then dont push it' is narrow-minded and shallow. If you dont like to discuss game design, just dont respond alright? Proper game design gives people at every stage multiple choices that each provide different but equally valuable rewards. When one choice is objectively superior to every other choice, making a choice loses a lot of its value. There is a reason why we wont just add a new 'UberShip' for 1c with a million hardpoints and just tell everyone 'not to use it if you dont like it'. Being able to think and come up with novel yet valid approaches is meaningful. Removing that is a problem. Responding to problems by saying:'lol u just jelly' is lame.

    If you play beta you'll see any new player will now earn multiple millions per hour by doing literally nothing. If people want to argue that is great game design then I dont see the point of having a designer in the first place. Just enable console commands and complain about grind.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by M. Volgrand View Post (Source)
    Are you kidding me?
    We play the Beta to provide feedback about it.

    Well, guess what? This is my feedback.

    I am very happy if you agree or disagree, and I'm very happy to debate about it. But, paraphrasing your words, it's not really your job to tell me what I should or shouldn't do.


    When you are advanced in the game, right, you need hundreds of millions.
    But my point is about new players: When we started playing, to reach the milestone of 1 million credits was an experience worth bragging on the net (hell, you can still see that in facebook groups). However Multicrew allows new players to gather millions in a matter of hours.

    I strongly believe that this will be bad for newer player in long term.
    I didn't tell you to do anything or not to. I said it shouldn't be a concern for you, why, and a suggestion on how to address it if you insist on making it one. Then I stated why it's not a concern for me and why your suggestion would be bad. By all means, continue on your fruitless endeavor to save other people's enjoyment, as if people need a 'fun nanny' in the first place.

  15. #15
    I think giving higher rewards to higher rank players makes sense in terms of economics and rewards for effort. The more elite ranks, the higher the pay should be.

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