2.3 dev update feedback mega thread

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I am still failing to understand why some people consider telepresence to be immersion breaking and can't be part of the Elite lore, considering that in the year 3125 as described in "The Dark Wheel" (the book that came with the original Elite in 1984), there was a communications device called a holoFac which allowed a fully animated Holographic image of the person you were speaking to, even though they were on a different planet and/or system.

Simply in the Elite Lore, Telepresence = holoFac + remote control

If it's the instant data communications at Galactic distances that is "immersion breaking" to you then how are we able to instantly chat to another Commander via text chat or voice regardless of where they are in the Milky Way Galaxy?

If scientists can teleport quantum data 60 miles in the year 2015, I am sure in the year 3300 or earlier scientists would have found a way of instantly transferring data across the Milky Way.
 
I love the idea of playing/fighting/flying together with friends. Instant teleport is quite useful although i thought we need to dock at the same station and stick together until we dock again.
The roles are a good addition to the game.........it looks like we preparing for a war.... :D who know Thardoids attack the mankind haha

But the very best feature is the avatar creator, i will spend alot of time with it, creating the sexiest avatar in the galaxy :D
 
Ship Crews in the DDF

Hey everyone, while you're discussing this topic it may be prudent to compare what we have here with 2.3 Multi Crew with the original concept from the DDF, in the link above.

Personally I feel that what we have proposed in front of us now is a much much better application than what is in the DDF - never mind the fact that actual robot crew is somewhat troubling to Elite's lore regarding AI etc... Points to note from this are:

- It's largely talking about NPC crew
- You pick them up from stations and mission boards
- The roles: Pilot, Gunner, Engineer and Marine; Marine being redundant because we don't yet have boarding. Shame to lose the engineer station, though
- Remuneration: Percentage wages like we have currently with our NPC crew. Strange then that this hasn't carried over to player crew, but I think this concept is really vague in its scope.

What are your thoughts?
 
Ähm ... sorry OA but here i have to disagree completely ... this stupid telepresence-instant-teleporting MC stuff is the INCARNATION OF SHALLOW GAMEPLAY in all its glory!

Only because the foundations of all the other gameplay such as exploration, mining, trading etc are already shallow. If those elements had already been well fleshed out, it would be a different story. Even with physical crew joining, it wouldn't add depth to all the various game roles, because they already lack depth and haven't been fleshed out.

A lot of people have, for a very long time, been calling for the game to be fleshed out before the addition of multi-crew, and this is exactly why they were making that call! :) Instant-Join or Physically-Join the result in terms of depth of gameplay is the same, because Frontier haven't fleshed out the supporting gameplay upon which multi-crew is being built.
 
Ok, here's all my feedback on what I read so far, in one huge post:

Setting up Multicrew:

Don't see the point of the random matchmaking “looking for ship” feature. No one will ever use it. People are afraid of their own shadow because of in-game exploits destructive behavior and won't risk being matched with someone willing to ruin their game for personal fun. If you have already programmed this, so be it, but if you didn't, I'd recommend dropping it.

Instant Multicrew

I understand the reasons behind it, but I would like to see it implemented in this form, only if this means that it's not tied to the player's commander and save game in any way. That means no cloned bounty vouchers, no crime penalties (everything applies just to the captain, the multicrew session creator), no reputation or other effects on the player's progress. I'd rather see people do this for fun and not to bypass game mechanics (such as finding and traveling to a war system to gain vouchers, as opposed to simply multicrew matchmaking there), or worse, to exploit the game.

Helm, Gunner and Fighter Con Roles

I like the idea of 360 firing and additional sensors arc, as well as missile lock. I would like for two people to be able to play as fighter con at the same time but understand if that would be too OP. It would have been cool if navigation could be delegated to one of the crew members (find the nearest system and get us out of here!). But overall I'm pleased with the proposition.

Additional distributor pip

I understand the desire to make crewed ships more powerful in the face of wings, but at the same time I think this could be exploited / provide an unfair advantage in other situations. The roles themselves are powerful enough.

Edit: perhaps you've thought of this already: if you go the way of additional pips, the crew number should count towards the wing limit. A 3 man Vette should only be able to wing up with another 1 man ship, and the resulting wing should indicate 4/4.

As for the commander creator, I find it a bit sad that you go all the way to make the game this immersive then ruin it with telepresence. I could live with two parallel systems: players quickmatching onboard another ship and taking the role of a previously hired NPC character (maybe using the existing crew lounge feature), or players physically joining the ship with their own avatar but having to meet up to join. Putting myself in the shoes of a player who plays the game exclusively for the immersion, that player will not be inclined to use a multicrew feature where random people with random avatars keep popping up aboard his ship although he has never seen them in his life.
 
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See Frontier, something must be up, I've agreed with and repped StiTch! :O

Heh....thankyou...I think? ;)

2.1 had a high profile because the potential to unbalance the game was obvious, but there's a distinct note of complacency in all this that could lead to an unexpected brown trousers time balance wise.

Passive pips can do one, and I'm only glad we weren't given a role for shield redistribution...the abuse potential on top of an already excessive defensive game at present would be nuts.
 
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Instant ship transfer opens up the game, and offers huge amounta of opportunities to players. What a lot of people are getting a little annoyed with is the hypocrisy of a lot of people on this forum who argued for ship transfers as being unimmersive, but argue that instant crew transfer is needed for gameplay

Always hear this, the term "immersion" is used more by people looking for an easy target to out their frustrations - not by the majority of people who voted for time delay. Most people who voted for delay were expecting a 3 to 10 minute wait to stop you transferring at a whim to wreck someone else's ship preserving the consequence of ship choice when traversing the bubble, no one anticipated a lore abiding 'freighter' service with travel times up to an hour!

There are obvious reasons that elite needs to have instant crew signup from anywhere, first and foremost being accessibility. Every time more access is given to players it is only a good thing - the game becomes more approachable and more activities become viable, the one big flaw to ED is any gates to having a good time, missions used to be rank gated if you remember, did you think it was a bad idea to make them available to everyone?

I'm most curios to know what people way out in the black think of instant crew transfer vs what people who spend alot of time in the bubble think of instant crew transfer.

Where are you.
 
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Heh....thankyou...I think? ;)

2.1 had a high profile because the potential to unbalance the game was obvious, but there's a distinct note of complacency in all this that could lead to an unexpected brown trousers time balance wise.

Passive pips can do one, and I'm only glad we weren't given a role for shield redistribution...the abuse potential on top of an already excessive defensive game at present would be nuts.

100℅ agreed
 
I increasingly feel that telepresence should just be adopted into the lore. With suitable limitations, it could be used to explain all sorts of things. Make it a feature! Once space-feet are implemented, design missions around it.

Apart from fighters, telepresence explains how we return to our ships when SRVs are destroyed. It explains our participation in CQC. It explains our deaths and the rebuy screen - we're only in our ships through telepresence. It makes death cheap, so it also explains why there is so much crime in the Elite universe and why we often see the same NPC names again and again. ;)

In another thread I tried to come up with limitations so that we can't just zap ourselves around everywhere. We still need a justification for travel. Some suggestions:

  1. Telepresence needs proper equipment (TP units) to establish the link at both ends. So you can't telepresence yourself to an arbitrary spot in space.
  2. TP units would look like the standard cryogenic chambers from countless sci-fi films - big and bulky. So you can't carry units around in your pockets to beam in friends.
  3. Links are maintained between TP units, and each unit only supports one link. So you can't telepresence lots of people into your little ship or move armies through TP units.
  4. The link needs to be accepted at both ends. You can't telepresence yourself into hostile ships. And both visitor and host can terminate links at will.
  5. Telepresence is extremely uncomfortable unless you are highly trained in using it. All commanders are trained but others - e.g. tourists - are not, so they still have to be transported around.
  6. Except for resurrections, stations generally don't allow people telepresencing in. Partly it occupies their limited TP units and partly telepresence people are hard to govern since they don't care much about death. Visitors with ships are easier to manage and faction borders are maintained.
  7. After resurrection at a station, the TP link is transferred back to your home location to free up the station TP unit.
  8. Telepresence takes on the form of our self-perception. Our looks and clothing are carried over, but equipment is not.

Since telepresence (and Galnet) implies instantaneous transfer of information across infinite distances, I think FD should just let that happen, again with certain limitations. Data packages would be encrypted in a way that blocks instant transfer. Some data types contain their own quantum entanglement (or whatever) and cannot be transferred. But it should be possible to purchase market information from some stations and implement faction chat, etc.

I also think FD needs to think forwards a bit. Once we get space-feet and can run around shooting each other, what happen when our telepresence dies, but the ship is still fine? Let's assume we get an option screen between returning to our ships by re-establishing the telepresence link (a timer?) or restarting in a sidewinder. Boarders would have to reprogram the TP unit to block the commander from spawning in continuously.
 
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I don't get why I had to share bounties with a wingman last night, but when this comes out anyone who comes into my ship gets money from the magic money tree

I don't get why I have to pay a cut to my AI crew, but People Crew will get money from a magic money tree

And I don't think this idea has been fully thought through. At all.
 
I don't get why I had to share bounties with a wingman last night, but when this comes out anyone who comes into my ship gets money from the magic money tree

I don't get why I have to pay a cut to my AI crew, but People Crew will get money from a magic money tree

And I don't think this idea has been fully thought through. At all.

Yup, yup and yup.
 
Have a look at your Module Tab in your ship.....and the bulk of the UI is already there. Just add an extra option for "Run Diagnostic".......and the time it takes for the diagnostic to run would depend on the module type & the class of module (lower class modules would be quicker, but would be less likely to deliver a potential for benefit). Once the diagnostic is completed, you'd get a pop up telling you what buff you could apply-& how long it will last-as well as any material/power cost to get the buff in place (kind of like synthesis), though there would be a small chance that you could accidentally break the module instead, so there would be a risk/reward mechanic in place.

Engineers could use a similar system for repairing damaged modules, & for shifting power between systems to get boosts as the Captain/pilot required.

In a one-person ship, these kinds of task could be conducted by the pilot during particularly long Super-cruise trips.

Yeah, I find that a really worthless game. YMMV, but I don't think anyone would want to play that. Would YOU?

This is, of course, a far cry from the massively OP "flat pip increase" that you mention.

But that is entirely what it is. Either this is necessary to do as the lone pilot or it "magically" restores bits and pieces of modules or creates a false buff, you even said that specifically. It's an on-the-fly engineering mechanic, so it's somewhat in gameplay, but it doesn't require an engineer, which is unbalancing. And it's definitely not worth playing as an engineer, you could just do without that and do it yourself, the buff lasts some time and can't be done immediately on combat.

But this time, at the very least, you didn't back off with "Oh, I'm just the ideas guy", which indicates the diatribe you spouted were merely projections of your own issues, you actually came up with something.

Now, anyone up for playing this engineer in Elite?

I vote no. Marc? Yes or no, or would you not do that game voluntarily, but love to get someone else to buff your ship? This is the problem Star Citizen faces with multiple players as crew (and in this case, it looks like it'll be necessary to have players to run this role for some ships), where everyone loves the idea, but nobody wants to get out of the pilots' seat.

And that may be what turned up in Alpha. Or even just at the design stage.

If you made up this idea before, and I never saw it, did anyone think to vote for it?

- - - Updated - - -

Why is there still no word on NPC crew? All I want want is just to look over to my co polit seat and see someone sitting there, and I don't want to have to always rely on my friends being online or not. Is it really so hard for Frontier to just put a dummy in those seats?

Also, are there no new ships? LAME! Give us the Hunter already!

Funnily enough, though almost everyone will be happy with that, many want the same perks with fake PC crews as real PC crews do too. And this may be why they're not doing it. Even if they're just manikins sitting there, it will seem a little less empty. But if putting them in makes the uproar for making them "DO something" which requires more dev programming, balancing and debugging, they may be shying off doing even the dead copilot dummy idea to save aggrivation.

- - - Updated - - -

Same reason there is still no word on hired NPCs using the 'Wings' feature. Even though this would have let the team focus on fixing/creating other features, instead of having to model, animate and code the SLF stuff.

NPC wings would have to do something. They can't just follow. About the only ones it would be useful for, though, are paid cannon fodder to allow you to escape when you're kitted out for pure trading. And instead they made the escape easier. Not to mention that NPC pilots have to face the full purchase price, they're not part of the Pilots' Federation.
 

Goose4291

Banned
You misunderstand, with this last point I am saying that people out in deep space that return to the bubble and experience all these things. With the former point I am saying that people inside the bubble can go out into deep space. Two quite different things. :D

Got you. I'll be honest I misunderstood your wording there.

Here you are talking about the depth of gameplay, which is a completely different subject to instant transfer. You are right, Elite is seriously lacking depth and complex gameplay loops.

The problem with bolting on complexity is that it leads to players who are comfortable and happy with the current easy stopgap measure becoming either disenfranchised with the experience (as its changed so much) or extremely angry lobbyists for the stopgaps return.


As you pointed out yourself - the players cannot physically do anything when they get there. There's no removal of player choice, because the player isn't actually there. It's merely a flying visit where they cannot interact. If they want the full experience, they will have to travel there themselvess.

The idea that I can choose to go into the black or to one CG and then hop across to help my mate at whim runs counter to one of the concepts I was sold this game on the strength of: that player choice and decisions matter with pros and cons. More: 'Go exploring? Cant take part in a CG' than the 'Be an admiral/king with no blowback' we have now.

Why would they complain about the added complexity, if there are two modes to join a crew? 1) Instant Joining 2) Physically Joining. If they have the choice of both with option 1 having extreme limitations vs option 2 the only people who would complain are the few unreasonable people.

If physical joining offers advantages or other roles to play as, I forsee a slew of "Im time poor, this isnt the game I paid for, frontier are discriminating against me." type rants on the horizon.

The argument against instant-transfer ships was never one of "immersion". That was a straw-man argument. It amazes me that this belief still persists.

Oh i know it was a strawman (for the most part), Im not stupid.
I just find it hillarious that people who argued instant ship transfers were unnessecary, not lore friendly and unimmersive are leading the charge in defence of insta-crew transfers.
 
This would be my preference:

Telepresence
I really dislike this, but can live with it. I would prefer a system that works with the exisiting lore, so to enable multi crew you need to meet up at a station. Most ships these day have around a 25ly jump range, so say if the person you want to meet up with is 100ly away, thats 4 jumps. That is not going to take much time at all.

If you are in Colonia, you multicrew with people in colonia. If you are out exploring, well thats tough (I am an explorer most of the time myself) you knew what you where getting into when you go out exploring, and that is a lot of time not interacting with other players and multicrew looks like it is combat focused, so not really useful for most explorers anyway.

If you want to leave you have an eject commmand which ejects you out of the ship in an escape capsule and you appear at the station where you left your ship. The ship owner can eject his/her crewmates if they want to.

This works within existing lore. Get's rid of the lore breaking unlimited range telepresence rubbish. But as I said, I can live with the current idea if I have to.

If telepresence is going to be in, then I want to be able to dismiss the mothership when in my fighter, in combat or when flying around a planet. It needs to be consistant, otherwise the gameworld lore becomes a joke.


General Mechanics
Get rid of the extra pip. There are better ways.

Roles - Helm
I think this is fine as is, but would be good if you could switch to the gunner role if you have an NPC that can pilot like they do when we use the SLF.

Roles - Gunner
This could be a whole lot better. Basically you have a whole new pip system within you turret guns. You have pip that equal the amount of power given to you by the helm distributed between your turrets. You can move these pips around to increase power to certain turrets (doing more damage/range) but will decrease power to the turret you have taken power from, so that if you have a turret that can't see the attacked you can use some of that guns power.

The drawback to this will be extra heat, and the more power you put through your turrets the more chance of damage you do to them. This would make the gunner role more dynamic and fun to use. We should be able to switch to this with the NPC crewmate flying the ship. Give me more reasons to use this feature.

Roles - Fighter Pilot
It's fine as it is. Nothing to expand on this.

Extra Roles
I would like to see a defence role that can control the shields similar to the way the gunner works above with different areas of the shields and who can also control ECM, Chaff, Heat Sinks etc. Shields would need to be balanced though.

A crew member should be able to use an SRV as well.

Combat Bonds/Bounties
These need to be balanced around your combat rank, so a Harmless crew member gets 20% and an Elite crew member gets 100%.

NPC
You should have the option to see your NPC crew member on the bridge if there is a seat available. For instance the Keelback can't due to no seat available.
 
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This poll shows that 194 votes 88.58% want non-combat roles for multicrew. What are the development plans for non-combat roles?



This poll shows 375 votes 85.23% think NPCs are essential for multicrew. Other polls consistently show similar results with a high demand for NPC crew. What are the plans for this?

Though NPC was allowed to be a stuffed dummy sitting in the vacant seat.
 
Seriously the things I'm reading again and again on this are:

- Multi-crew is pointless, FD shouldn't add it.
- Commander Creator is pointless, FD shouldn't add it.
- Ship Launched Fighters are completely pointless, FD shouldn't have added them.
- Passenger Missions are worse than pointless, FD shouldn't have added them.
- Every update we've had since 2.0 is pointless and shouldn't have been put in.
- None of this is in the DDF. (Which is patently false, by the way; most of it is in the DDF, but just looks different since the original concept, which is perfectly reasonable)
- All of this ruins the game completely by adding things to it that I don't want to do.

But even after all that I still see loads of the following:

- Wings are pointless, FD shouldn't have added them.
- Planetary landings are pointless, FD shouldn't have added them.
- SRVs are awful, FD shouldn't have added them.
- Skimmers are exploitable, FD shouldn't have added them.
- Powerplay is pointless, FD should never had added it.
- CQC is pointless, FD shouldn't have added it.

And after all that, 1) I feel like I've pretty accurately summed up the entire forum, and 2) What game do you actually want to play anyway if you don't want most of it?
 
2) Gunner Multi-Crew Combat
Here I am a bit disappointed, honestly the mechanics right now do seem that they will work. Become a gunner and use “Some” of a ships guns, Great! Except on a Cobra with fixed weapons all the gunner does is use a KWS dump the occasional Heat-Sink and assign a Pip… Huzzah… all the other time they are useless unless the Cobra gimps itself by taking turrets.

The way the gunner works in, say Apache Longbow, is when you have a player CPG, you as the pilot don't get to shoot anything other than (IIRC) the multicannon.

So maybe there's no fire button for the Pilot when a gunner is on the ship. Also means that "farming" extra benefits won't work since an inactive account in another window will stop you shooting any guns.
 
I am still failing to understand why some people consider telepresence to be immersion breaking and can't be part of the Elite lore, considering that in the year 3125 as described in "The Dark Wheel" (the book that came with the original Elite in 1984), there was a communications device called a holoFac which allowed a fully animated Holographic image of the person you were speaking to, even though they were on a different planet and/or system.

Simply in the Elite Lore, Telepresence = holoFac + remote control

If it's the instant data communications at Galactic distances that is "immersion breaking" to you then how are we able to instantly chat to another Commander via text chat or voice regardless of where they are in the Milky Way Galaxy?

If scientists can teleport quantum data 60 miles in the year 2015, I am sure in the year 3300 or earlier scientists would have found a way of instantly transferring data across the Milky Way.

Then why am I flying a ship?

Why aren't we all just phoning it in from a cubicle planet-side and complaining about the new company pension policy around the watercooler?
 
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