2.3 dev update feedback mega thread

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Just thinking out loud... No real point.

I'd seen Sag A* on YouTube, but that actually made me want to see it myself, so I flew out there.
Seeing something on YouTube and in game is a bit different, depending on your mindset.
Just like seeing the Pyramids of Giza on TV is nothing like being there.

Just sayin'.

IDK, if I had VR, I'd agree with you...but I don't :p

From my experience, it was about the same. It didn't cheapen it for me though. I went out there and was really just more impressed by my own persistence to get out there. I took a picture and added my name to the visitor's thread :)

Now, I don't think crewmates should take the honor of having visited Sag A...unless they rode the whole way with you. Of course, you can't police what people take credit for...so I hope it would just be up to the community to shame them.
 
My thoughts/opinions/feedback on Multi-Pew?
thumbs-up-thumbs-down-the-pride-post-7NuoM8-clipart.jpeg
 
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Hello Mega thread

@devs please can we get a decent crime and punishment system in 2.3.

I used to like getting pirated, now I just get ganked.

With that I cast my post on the winds of the thread never to be seen again...
 
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It would have seemed just as hollow if you were the one made nav officer, trust me on that.

As an optional station that someone could move in and out of, it would be pretty awesome. Investigating systems and plotting a course as the pilot is traveling making the jumps you have mapped? At that point you are actually doing something more engaging than the pilot who is stuck in a Jump-wait-jump-wait-fuel scoop-jump-wait loop.

It would suck as a full time job, but should definitely be a chair that crew-mates could jump in or out of as needed.
 
<giant wall of text>

tl;dr version of my feedback:

* Please drop the idea of extra pips per crew member. Do not give and form of passive buff to the ship's capabilities, as it is open to exploits and the multiboxing buffbots many an MMO has been plague with, as well as too much an implausible, magical buff.

* Do not explain the instant-drop-in-drop-out multi-crew in the lore. Not "telepresence" or anything else. Just let it be. It is for convenience and beyond the 4th wall, some things are better off ignored entirely by the lore (like the cut in a movie that skips ahead). And as for the immersion factor, I think the physicality of actually being on a friend's ship is more powerful than having a lore explanation for the question how you got there. Consider how

* Let us give the helm role to other crew members.

* Let us deploy SRVs with crew members in the same way as SLFs.

* Also duplicate bounties and combat bonds within the entire wing, not just among people crewing the same ship.
 
In regards to instant Commander teleportation for Multicrews:

It's completely immersion breaking and destroys the unique grand sense of scale of the ED setting.

Players already need to meet up to do Wing activity together, and I don't see that being complained about as a chore to achieve; so why would meeting up to form a crew be any different practically?

I already play with my friends in Wings, and the same friends will be each other's multicrew too. We're already hanging out in the same volumes of space. This teleportation feature will be used by non-Winging players maybe only once or twice, as a complete gimmick, yet the damage to the setting's scale is already done. Those who want teleportation to support their mindless sugar-rush insta-combat gameplay (besides already having CQC/Arena), will be gone to the next flavour of the month game anyway in short order once bored again.

Magical insta-teleportation for crew utterly devalues the intangible (but magical) quality of feeling like you're really journeying in space with your friends.

I doubt the gaming press / media will ever again bother covering the "magic and wonder" of ED's huge Exploration voyages, since it won't exist anymore. The thing that was news-worthy and interesting was the journey, not the destination. So obvious!

Space Engine will be the go-to application for anyone wanting to explore the Galaxy using simple "console command" shortcuts.

Lots of people (probably the same people who chase fast-credit exploits), are screaming for instant-teleportation to make sugar-rush combat as easy as pressing a button, but have FD considered that the degradation of the scale of the setting will wipe away an element of the game that is difficult to pin down in terms of specific mechanics, namely the overall emotional feel of the game?

I fear FD are chasing a demographic with these arcade design choices, that has no interest in the setting, but rather are the sorts of players who only hang around for 5 minutes after an update anyway, before they go off to the next sugary buzz. The sort of player that is not interested in the journey, or exploring the depth that ED has to offer, but rather wants higher credits per hour so they can race to the "end" ship and hurriedly "beat" the game.

Basically the worry is that FD is chasing the money of arcade players who will simply be gone again after they've exhausted their initial novelty buzz of consuming new content, then leaving the core players of the game with a unsatisfying, stripped back, bland "ease of access" focused casual game.

Instant Teleportation is simply Instant Gratification.

Those who want Instant Gratification will not be gratified by the content after 3 or 4 goes of the ride, they will leave to find Instant Gratification from somewhere else.

When I play co-op we work together to navigate distances as a team, we travel across space for our gameplay purposes in concert. Managing our time and appreciating the scale of the setting is part of the tactical-strategic layer that we play in - having meaningful restrictions, limiters and tensions in our gameplay is GOOD as it demands creative thinking and more than just an arcade style point and click unthinking approach to play.

FD might think they're adding something and fulfilling demand in their community by "gifting" teleportation. Really they are risking diluting the specialness of the setting, and gutting a huge plank of emergent gameplay (resource management and situational awareness), by just catering to the "here one minute, gone the next" crowd, and not the loyal core of the community that loves ED for it's rich and vast scale.

Remember this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHg6lHvWdCw

The guy is blown away by the incredible sense of scale, his mind is seemingly blown.

Now imagine the reaction when he's now told "now you just use this console command button to magic yourself to anywhere you want instantly"... - I highly suspect that the awe of witnessing the Galaxy Map is inspired not just by the sheer number of possible destinations shown, BUT BY THE EVOCATIVE CONCEPT THAT ONE MUST ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY TRAVERSE THOSE INTERVENING VOLUMES OF SPACE TO REACH ONE OF THEM, and not "by magic", but by thought and consideration and by determination that really matters and is an actual achievement. NOT a laughable Playstation Trophy or an Xbox Achievement to tick off a damn list. BUT AN ACTUAL ACHIEVEMENT WITH FEELS AND STUFF!!

If instant teleportation is going to be a thing, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS SPECIAL IN ED limit it to only working within the Bubble, or within 100 or 50 LYs of each other.

Don't break the game's best most amazing Unique Selling Point (1:1 representation of the Milky Way) just for an arcade combat feature.

Please <3

The problem with ED is the galaxy is too big. Its a technically impressive feat modelling the milky way but its not exactly made it easy for Frontier to deliever quality gameplay. I really think this is at the nub of the issue; particuarly if we consider that by the end of the lifetime of this game 1% of it might have been visted. So whats the point? Even dedicated explorers are complaining about the lack of content. Hmm..

Re the telepresence and previously insta ship transfer I believe its more about our sense of disbelief (SOD) than immersion. When FD start breaking the generally understood rules of the gameworld it breaks our SOD. The game is of course full of inconsistencies, and after a while it stops making sense.

I don't think its quite as bad as you are making out re the telepresence. However unlike the previously proposed instant ship transfer I don't think it will have negative gameplay consquences.. So where previously insta ship transfer would have removed the relevance of all jump ranges bar the largest, and left us effectively flying around with our fleet, and potentially affecting what ships we saw in and around the galaxy, the proposed multicrew telepresence doesn't have negative gameplay effects.

It does break our existing SOD (since telepresence across the galaxy is a bit far fetched), but its not the same as the insta transfer. What I think would make more sense is if we were taking over control of existing crew members aboard our friends ship. Perhaps that is how we should look at it, after all our SOD partitially down to us as well as what the devs produce. So in the interests of fun and gameplay, I think that overrides the current immersion issues. You can afterall choose not to use it as well ;)

Why I think Frontier are doing this is because one of the problems with ED is that its quite hard to play together with friends, co-op, and its often pointed out that there are too many hurdles in the way of playing it as a multiplayer game. That said, this concept should apply to Wing play too. If we can play together, and benefit from doing so as crew, we should be able to do so in our ships within wings.

If I'm being quite frank, multicrew does stike me as a bit of a gimmick. I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it, it could be fun, and if it also opens up more ways of playing the game, then cool. Personally, I'm actually much more interested in the commander creator.. That said, it does seem like its gonna make it easier for players to share experiences, and given the size of the galaxy thats probably a wise move.
 
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You are very philanthropically minded.

Well, I tend not to get protective of virtual achievements...not sure if that is philanthropic since I'm taking much joy in showing off how badass and dedicated I am. I'm a show off...


FWIW, I do give a significant portion of my income to the least among us...I might not be religious anymore but some Christian values you just can't shake.
 
There is a whole bunch of new insta-content people out there, only 2.01 million units sold - plenty more buyers to appeal to.

As my post history today shows, I for one will quite likely have to quit the game if 2.3 goes to press as with the feature as described. This is tele-presence too far, and very bad for open mode.

My time and money, my choice. Oh and I hate exploring the sights of the galaxy - 300LY to the Pleiades my limit before space madness takes over.

Simon

Your choice, and I respect that.

Likewise, however, if FDev goes back on the feature and capitulates to the people who do not want instant transmission, I will likely not play the game anymore. Not just because I don't get my toys, but because it will show where their priorities lie and where their direction is heading. If they want to sacrifice a fun and accessible mechanic for the sake of immersion, then this game clearly isn't for me. Part of what keeps me in this game is being excited for what lies ahead. If what lies ahead is a game filled with even more boredom and needless busywork obstacles made to cater to boring people who like poor game design then I have no reason to stick around, even after spending a year and several hundred hours on it.

If they don't cave in here, I will be even more excited for the future of the game. I already put up with a lot of boring stuff to play this game, but for the most part it's worth it. Them showing that they are willing to implement accessible and fun mechanics signals to me that they want to take this game in a more positive direction.

This is a multiplayer game at its heart. Robust multiplayer features are required to make it work on a fundamental level. Without that, multicrew will fail. And I'm sorry, but putting obstacles in the game to prevent people from leveraging multicrew will be poor design.
 
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There is a whole bunch of new insta-content people out there, only 2.01 million units sold - plenty more buyers to appeal to.

As my post history today shows, I for one will quite likely have to quit the game if 2.3 goes to press as with the feature as described. This is tele-presence too far, and very bad for open mode.

My time and money, my choice. Oh and I hate exploring the sights of the galaxy - 300LY to the Pleiades my limit before space madness takes over.

Simon

There's a lot of people who feel very strongly the other way. What makes your way the right way? There's strong arguments for both sides of the situation. Throwing our toys out of the pram isn't the right way to go, whilst sure "those who shout loudest" certainly seem to get some attention here, it doesn't validate the argument.

Instant crew joining works for a lot of reasons, primarily because this is a game and it is about fun. But also because it opens up a lot of future possibilities, such as joining deep space expeditions, helping people out who are in a tough spot, learning the ropes of the game, instant "this is how you do xyz" tutorial fly-throughs, seeing areas of the galaxy you may never otherwise see, getting involved with puzzles that are separated by 10k light years (people will be able to help with the Formidine, Conflux, Hawking's Gap and Alien Ruins searches without having to choose), taking a trip to Colonia to help a player or for fun. These are just a few examples - and you know what?

The awesome thing here? Everyone will be able to join in these activities in a limited manner, because your ship will not physically be there, your ability to interact is limited, but still offers fantastic additional gameplay opportunities. It enables access to extra content without taking anything away from anyone. It goes a huge distance to actually bringing many of the elements of the game together.

Here's the thing. There is now so much content in Elite, which is spread across literally hours upon hours of travel, that instant crew joining will dramatically open this game up. Currently so much content is locked behind 1000's of light years of travel.

Further, forcing players to meet in a station to join a crew will render this feature useless to many people, I for one will be far less likely to use it. And people will certainly be able to come and join me.

Also, keep in mind that this is only the first stage of multi-crew. True walking around is still yet to come, when that arrives we can seriously begin talking about physically joining other ships. Maybe then there will be two modes:

1) Instant Crew Joining with many limitations (you cannot leave your seat).
2) Physically Joining the Crew, which would enable all spacelegs content.


Shouting down instant crew joining is short sighted, and reduces accessibility to content. I'm grateful for Frontier's approach on this, and feel it would be a serious mistake if it is changed.

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Your choice, and I respect that.

Likewise, however, if FDev goes back on the feature and capitulates to the people who do not want instant transmission, I will likely not play the game anymore. Not just because I don't get my toys, but because it will show where their priorities lie and where their direction is heading. If they want to sacrifice a fun and accessible mechanic for the sake of immersion, then this game clearly isn't for me. Part of what keeps me in this game is being excited for what lies ahead. If what lies ahead is a game filled with even more boredom and needless busywork obstacles made to cater to boring people who like poor game design then I have no reason to stick around, even after spending a year and several hundred hours on it.

If they don't cave in here, I will be even more excited for the future of the game. I already put up with a lot of boring to play this game, but for the most part it's worth it. Them showing that they are willing to implement accessible and fun mechanics signals to me that they want to take this game in a more positive direction.

This is a multiplayer game at its heart. Robust multiplayer features are required to make it work on a fundamental level. Without that, multicrew will fail. And I'm sorry, but putting obstacles in the game to prevent people from leveraging multicrew will be poor design.

Very well spoken points, which make logical sense and I fully agree with them!
 
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There's a lot of people who feel very strongly the other way. What makes your way the right way? There's strong arguments for both sides of the situation. Throwing our toys out of the pram isn't the right way to go, whilst sure "those who shout loudest" certainly seem to get some attention hear, it doesn't nothing to validate the argument.

Instant crew joining works for a lot of reasons, primarily because this is a game and it is about fun. But also because it opens up a lot of future possibilities, such as joining deep space expeditions, helping people out who are in a tough spot, learning the ropes of the game, instant "this is how you do xyz" tutorial fly-throughs, seeing areas of the galaxy you may never otherwise see, getting involved with puzzles that are separated by 10k light years (people will be able to help with the Formidine, Conflux, Hawking's Gap and Alien Ruins searches without having to choose), taking a trip to Colonia to help a player or for fun. These are just a few examples - and you know what? Everyone will be able to join in these activities in a limited manner, because your ship will not physically be there, your ability to interact is limited, but still is fantastic additional opportunities.

Here's the thing. There is now so much content in Elite, which is spread across literally hours upon hours of travel, that instant crew joining will dramatically open this game up. Currently so much content is locked behind 1000's of light years of travel.

Further, forcing players to meet in a station to join a crew will render this feature useless to many people, I for one will be far less likely to use it. And people will certainly be able to come and join me.

Also, keep in mind that this is only the first stage of multi-crew. True walking around is still yet to come, when that arrives we can seriously talking about physically joining other ships. Maybe then there will be two modes:

1) Instant Crew Joining with many limitations (you cannot leave your seat).
2) Physically Joining the Crew, which would enable all spacelegs content.


Shouting down instant crew joining is short sighted, and reduces accessibility to content. I'm grateful for Frontier's approach on this, and feel it would be a serious mistake if it is changed.

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Very well spoken points, which make logical sense and I fully agree with them!

What's your opinion on the magic pips created when someone joins your crew?
 
Feedback:

I was not interested in Multicrew until I read how it will work, and now I'm interested. Fast drop in, drop out with no faffing around sounds like FUN. The game does need some 'gamey' stuff to balance out the dryness and seriousness of the foundation.


Polite genuine friendly request to mods - I think it would be helpful to delete anything in this thread that isn't actually feedback or criticism of the mechanics, I can't imagine anyone in Frontier wading through pages of stuff that isn't useful.
 
2.3 is as cheap and as barebone as it can get, from what I've read. So yeah, I'm very disappointed.

Plus, it carries into the game a whole lot of new inconsistencies, because the game is strict, time consuming, kinda simulative and follow its rules only when it feels like it, where he likes it. And 90% of the time it doesn't make any sense at all. Everything is arbitrary.
I have to say I wasn't interested at all in multicrew, and my expectations were pretty much non-existent, but still this update feels incredibly underwhelming to me. Good job fdevs.
 
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Since the number of extra crew you can take is limited by the seats on the ship, does this mean the keelback cant have a 2nd crew even though it has a fighter hanger, which is one of the listed roles for extra crew.
 
As an optional station that someone could move in and out of, it would be pretty awesome. Investigating systems and plotting a course as the pilot is traveling making the jumps you have mapped? At that point you are actually doing something more engaging than the pilot who is stuck in a Jump-wait-jump-wait-fuel scoop-jump-wait loop.

It would suck as a full time job, but should definitely be a chair that crew-mates could jump in or out of as needed.

It would suck if you were doing it for an hour.

This sort of play has been tried. And it only ever works on Helicopters, and STILL everyone wants to be the Pilot, not the gunner. Pop along to the Apache/Cohokum/Hind sim newsgroups and check out what it's like when you're sitting there with, outside combat, only looking at the waypoint and the ship marker moving about a screen.

And these are specifically designed to have two players in them, because the IRL thing has it that way, because of pilot overload.

And a genre that compresses the time in cockpit to get as much pewpewpew per chugachugachuga as humanly possible without confusing or panicking the player. With this universe, that's not a good game. Or at least not as good as you and the OP thought it would be.

And to get it to the rate at which the experience would work as well as it does, the other stations need full implementation and things to do on them that you can hotswap over and do yourself. That's BEFORE the nav officer becomes even usable in a non-combat role as basically a gunner.

And many of those things will be less easy to do if you stick to the pilot's chair.

Think of the cockpits with a captains' chair. You sit in that. Other people sit in their seats and you tell the nav officer to plot a course and then the pilot to plot a course and when there's combat, the gunner to defend the ship or pilot to get the heck out. You know, exactly like Picard does.

Nice for a bit, but there's a lot of seat warming going on for everyone. And the captain gets nothing other than the chore of telling people what to do, most of which will be like Sigourney and the Ship Computer in Galaxy Quest.

PS we already have complaints about the jump-jump-jump. And "do something between jumps" is STILL not enough for them. I don't think giving them another station to play on and not control the direction of the ship (or give one or the other of those jobs to someone else) isn't going to fix things.
 
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