2.3 dev update feedback mega thread

[AndyJ]

(I haven't read the last 60 odd pages)

Personally I'm not too bothered about the "jump in" mechanic to enable some instant gaming for those that want it - but as it's being presented, it doesn't sit well in the context of the game - and it falls straight into the same territory which caused many of us to argue for timed ship-transfers. Personally, I don't want the "main" game to go down the route of arcade action, and it bothers me somewhat that the design again seems to want to go that way. If we can hop between crew roles on a whim and benefit our main character, then arguably we should be able to hop between our own ships at will too if we want to do something different... i.e. I'm off mining somewhere remote, but want to jump back to my combat ship and fly with some wing mates for an evening. If I can do one, why not the other?

However, perhaps FD should make it so that it isn't our main CMDR playing that role.
After all - it's a supporting role - you aren't a commander on the ship. Create a secondary character who has their own ranking, just like an NPC crew member would, and give them an alternative name to the CMDR prefix - perhaps starting out with a lowly rank, up to something that stops short of CMDR.
Turn it into a separate challenge and then I don't think being able to hop about at will has too much significance.

Multiple commander slots were expected with offline mode, and after that was removed the backers were promised that they would appear along the line. So come on FD. create a secondary slot for a "crewman" character, and if you would - at least one more so I can start afresh in another one of my KS start positions without throwing away my main character. Ta.

 

[PyrateLV]

Well, yeah, FD is slowly moving us there, but for some it's too slow.

They compared ED to building a house in 2014. I remember that analogy...

Rooms on the first floor are unfinished, half of the walls lack proper finish and color and you see concrete almost everywhere; there's a sofa in the largest room that has no legs and seating pillows, just a frame; there's only one bland type of grass in a huge garden outside, and the stove in a kitchen only works on wood.

But we have already a second floor full of almost empty rooms and now we'll be shown an attic as well.

Hopefully we won't be sleeping on that bed with no mattress for much longer. We're sleeping on that for 2 years already!

I notice you left out any type of Bath/Shower/Toilet in your House analogy.
I take it those would be outside in this scenario?

 

[encrypted]

I notice you left out any type of Bath/Shower/Toilet in your House analogy.
I take it those would be outside in this scenario?

Yes, facilites are outside. You can use the garden. The garden is huge ... 400 billion grass bushes

 

[Red Anders]

Always hear this, the term "immersion" is used more by people looking for an easy target to out their frustrations - not by the majority of people who voted for time delay. Most people who voted for delay were expecting a 3 to 10 minute wait to stop you transferring at a whim to wreck someone else's ship preserving the consequence of ship choice when traversing the bubble, no one anticipated a lore abiding 'freighter' service with travel times up to an hour!

If that's true it's just another case of people reading what they wanted to read instead of what was actually said then because Sandy (correctly) said quite early in the discussion that there would be no point whatsoever in implementing a delay which was merely 'token' since it would just be an irritation and wouldn't address any of the concerns people were throwing out about people jumping to a system 300LY away and then instantly calling in their FDL with its D rated FSD.

Also I'm tired of reading people say that immersion had nothing to do with it. For some of you it might not have, but the forums were awash with people whining about their bloody immersion. Post after post after post of it. Some of them later jumped on the bandwagon of being concerned about gameplay mechanics when it became obvious that was the way to get a delay implemented but to suggest that the fabled immersion wasn't something that loads of people were quacking on about is just untrue.

Just like now. There's post after post in this thread talking about immersion, so if anything is changed about multi-crew telepresence on the back of this thread (and I repeat my earlier comment that it would be insanity to consider making players fly to a common location to engage in multi-crew gameplay if the intention is to make it anything more than a novelty feature) let's not be pretending that the immersion bunnies had nothing to do with it.

I'm all for making a game an immersive experience but not at the expense of making it fun and accessible and for multi-crew, the accessibility is absolutely key.

(Note - I will be amazed if I ever actually use it so believe me this isn't a personal plea or anything, it's just really really obvious.)

I don't get why I had to share bounties with a wingman last night, but when this comes out anyone who comes into my ship gets money from the magic money tree

I don't get why I have to pay a cut to my AI crew, but People Crew will get money from a magic money tree

And I don't think this idea has been fully thought through. At all.

This is very pertinent. Three people crewing a ship all get the same bounty as I would for killing the same ship on my own without 360 degree guns and extra pips. In what reality does that have a basis in logic? Don't even get me started on being able to destroy clean ships and then leave multi-crew and not have any bounties on you for your crimes, with your only penalty being you won't collect the bounties that you didn't make anyway because you were shooting clean ships. Must have been a cracking afternoon in the pub planning that one.

 

[PyrateLV]

I think the real problem with 2.3 is that it is very Content Lite.
Multi-Crew, Character Creator and External Camera View. Thats it?
Unless 2.4 is right on its heels that is not going to hold players attention long

Its like being served an Entree with no side dishes.
Are we to assume we will not be having any side dishes with dinner?

 

[Deedrix]

Despite how fast the thread is growing, have been keeping a watchful eye on the feedback.

 

[Red Anders]

So you are happy with getting nothing at all then???


Well, at least explorers aren’t losing anything, so I suppose that could be viewed as a good thing?

Let's face it, it's pretty much the maximum expectation now.

 

[Lokus Midgard]

Wow your are especially sour tonight there are lots of reasons why ship teleportation is bad not just immersion. That said IF (big IF) there was stuff to do whilst ship was been loaded/refueled/repaired i woukd be fine with some time being taken, probably not an exactly realistic time but just a small "nod" to realism. Even in dcs flight sim, a game which takes 30 mins to start your plane and do pre flight checks if you do it propely you do not have to wait for repairs tho.

Of yours your post was a toys out of pram whine and was not really uo for debate, but you bought it up so there is my 2p.

Right now tho, unlike ship transfer where you CAN do stuff in your ship whilst you wait, there is currently nothing we could do whilst loading etc therefore it needs to be instant.

That's my view, too. I'd actually quite like to see at least an animation of my cargo being loaded/unloaded - and what's fuel scooping, if not a process where you fill up your tanks in a non-instantaneous way? In fact, if we had an optional choice of controlling the loader, I could see that being a fun diversion in its own way, too. Without that, if you're a trader, all you're really doing is moving from one location to the other (and your ideal trade route preferably involves as few jumps as possible - or even none of them).

If stuff like 'American Truck Simulator' and 'Farming Simulator' get positive reviews for somehow making such tasks fun, then maybe Frontier should look at what they do differently and whether there's anything there they can learn from.

There are probably people who want as little fuss as possible, which is why I say cargo loading and such could just be an option rather than compulsory activity, but I'd at least like the choice of more involvement. From the look of the reaction to how the new crew feature relates to careers like exploring, mining and so on, it seems like people would like more optional diversity and involvement in those tasks, too.

Frontier often seems to design features for the objective of grinding. Grinding should always be incidental and fun diversity/involvement should be the objective. Let people be as hands-on or hands-off as they like. If you doubt the good will that would generate, just look at all the lamentation over the lack of an engineering station with the many suggestions for shield/sensor management. Things you don't need to have, but which would be nice to have the option of exploring.

 

[Mengy]

I think the real problem with 2.3 is that it is very Content Lite.
Multi-Crew, Character Creator and External Camera View. Thats it?

Nah I'm sure there will be some quality of life stuff and maybe even some minor updates or features, they just haven't announced them yet. I doubt there will be anything else major though, at best we might see the Dolphin get implemented.

Let's face it, it's pretty much the maximum expectation now.

So, the best explorers can expect now is to not lose any features with an update! LOL!


Wait, that's really not funny, actually...[sad]

 

[Straha Yeagar]

To be honest for me thats not a big issue.
If others want to cheat and skip all the fun , so be it.

What bothers me is more rejection of internal logic.
Unless you need to be docked at a station for this to work , but I dont think thats going to be the case. I think its going to be able to be done anywhere at any time. but we will see.

I may be negative about it but I will wait and see.
It just makes me wonder about the future

And by god...now there is no more reason for me not to be able to change my paint job on the fly way out in the black...a paint job that I paid real money for, that has no material effect on the game.

 

[Martin Afonso]

Random thought... Ram Tah starts researching the ruins and suddenly we have multicrew by telepresence... wideband Galnet by reversed alien tech?.

And the question about short range telepresence with fighters can be explained in lore if the transgalactic comms device works along with the FSD on board.

 

[drzdeano]

Havnt read previous 60 pages and not going to.

Gonna say this multicrew release is rather unimaginative and very mediocre.

So now 2 slf isn't OP. Why in heck can't we launch 2 npc fighters if we can have then using multicrew.

The only "new" addition from multicrew it seems is the gunner position. How anti-climactic.

I was expecting a few more positions to be able to operate. Something other than pilot or shooter.

There is almost no apparent change to the game apart from ships becoming (possibly) more deadly.

No new gameplay, no new modules, no groundbreaking game additions.

I hope 2.3 comes with more meat that just multicrew.

Poor effort, especially given recent publicity regarding those aliens.

Prove me wrong fdev. Add some other non combat position. Give us some new modules for our new crew. Give us some groundbreaking gameplay. Give us a surprise!

 

[SlugwormX]

I was wondering if the Gunner position could, instead of an extra PIP (which a pretty weak mechanic IMHO), reduce gun factors such as jitter to improve accuracy (as long as sights are on target of course). The rationale being Mk1 Eyeball vs Sensor the Mk 1 knows where it wants to hit whereas the Sensor can be confused by ship design, Image Recognition errors, chaff etc hence the jitter.

Other than other 'handwavium' mechanics such as beam focus, I don't know there is much else to the gun system that could be changed dynamically in a realistic manner. Maybe a zoom feature for long range modded guns? Anyone else think of anything...

LR + Low Jitter + DD5 might be a little OP...

 

[K M Butler]

The Problem with the concept of telepresence is that your pretending that your pretending your in a spaceship.

 

[Lokus Midgard]

I can assure you, automated systems of even today, like Phalanx, are infinitely more precise than manual human control is.

There is even a land-based version of it which is so accurate, it can shoot down individual small mortar shells.

 

[SlugwormX]

Yep, but the radar itself has issue with larger targets and can cause wander, which I liken to jitter. Had all sorts of issues when trying to track targets for real. A combination of radar with ISAR and IR / EO with sensor fusion is usually much better. Ever seen a radar trying to figure out where to track on a C130 that is just a bit too close? Wanders all over the place. I imagine the newer radars with ISAR / Sensor Fusion make this a minor problem these days...old timers, huh!

I was just trying to think of mechanics that you could apply to make it not so ...weak, I suppose. Adding more power by an extra PIP when in actuality you would be drawing more to run the Telepresence transmitter / receiver and automaton doesn't make sense. I might have an issue with inconsistencies in the briefly mentioned Telepresence implementation...!

 

[Taimaru]

Having to make people dock at the same station for multi-crew makes sense when we have space legs, however, we don't have that yet and probably won't for some time.

So, what choice is there? Put a hold on releasing multi-crew until we have space legs? Or, for gaming reasons, and don't forget this is a game, use telepresence as Frontier have already said how it would work?

As someone who's usually 1000's (or 10,000's) of LY's away from friends, if multi-crew is implemented as having to dock at stations then this feature, for me, would hardly (if ever) get used - maybe once or twice a year on a Monday evening at most.

Whereas being able to use telepresence for multi-crew would mean I could often use this feature if I want and have a lot more fun in the game with others.

Remember, with telepresence you can always self-impose the necessity to dock at the same station and role play your adventures together with your friends, whereas without telepresence it makes multi-crew a niche hardly used feature.

Telepresence can add a fun multi-crew feature for all, whereas without it (and the need to dock at the same station) it will hardly be used and it would be limited to a smaller cross-section of the player base.

 

[sensai25]

There will be bug fixes, tons of bug fixes.. 2 pages at least.

Could we please have telepresence in order to get prices available outside the station ? Traders are asking our that.

 

[Stinja]

However, perhaps FD should make it so that it isn't our main CMDR playing that role.
After all - it's a supporting role - you aren't a commander on the ship. Create a secondary character who has their own ranking, just like an NPC crew member would...

Yeah this is another alternative which could satisfy both sides. It avoids telepresence, avoids having to dock at the same location (so explorers can multicrew in bubble and visa versa).

To make it completely non-immersion breaking, the ship-owner should probably have to hire NPC crew at a station, and friends who want to multi-crew jump into those existing NPCs - taking them over.
If the owner hasn't hired, they can't multicrew, and is limited by seats etc.

You do it from the main menu, not your ship, and it's much like playing a single player game: "I want to play as an avatar" and jump into the body of Snake, Lara Croft or Nathan Drake... or... Jimbo Bob your friend's NPC in the gunner seat of his conda.
It's a "separate game" from "Elite: Dangerous with CMDR Stinja", and instead a shared game experience other players like "Elite: Dangerous with CMDR Stinja, Gunner Jimbo Bob and FighterCon Johnny John".

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

This is very pertinent. Three people crewing a ship all get the same bounty as I would for killing the same ship on my own without 360 degree guns and extra pips. In what reality does that have a basis in logic? Don't even get me started on being able to destroy clean ships and then leave multi-crew and not have any bounties on you for your crimes, with your only penalty being you won't collect the bounties that you didn't make anyway because you were shooting clean ships. Must have been a cracking afternoon in the pub planning that one.

I do not personally agree with a lot of what gou say (personally i like ship transfers as they are, they offer a service, its still more efficient to do if yourself if you want as imo its vital its always more profitsble to do it yourself rather than have the game do it fir you, the game is still 100,% playable whilst using transfer, it offers potential future extra gameplay being timed that is simpky not possible if instant AND for the players who care about immersion of which i am one it IS more immersive not having magic ship transfer.

Multicrew is a bit diferent. The backbone around it is so poorly fleshed out that imo instant is the only way, at least for now. Sadly tho like exploratiion once instant is in i doubt it will ever change and it is imo a valid worry that it will affect future direction of the game (why walk around a station to go to get in a ship when i can fast travek there.

God i have digressed i doubt you will get to my point now....

But i totally agree with you that the 3x payout for 3 in a ship is complely lame, it has no logical sense at all. I can sort of get behind the slight trade dividend of trading in a group (encouraging safety in numbers coukd be seen as cost effective by an industry as it reduces the chances of lost cargo) and i coukd acceot a similar logic for multicrew but ultimately the suggestion of triple payouts is daft. The game is heading down a dark path imo.

I keep bleating oncabout it but FD not giving a toss about npcs is killing the game for me. I cant think of a space game which does not offer npc wing men andmukticrew shoukd be the cherry on top of the cake of npc crew not the cake itself (how have fd in good consience gone so far from ddf?)

Mukticrew shoukd be fun and this should be reason enough for it in and of itself where as FD seem to be going the route of encouraging use simpky by throwing in game money at it.

And as for the walking away without a criminal record? In what universe is this not going to create 3 player griefer boats?. SDC et al will be rubbing their hands with glee. Even if not as effective as 3 shios in a wing it does not matter, it will be a stealth ship un!ike a wing of 4 which stands out a mile and will instantly get akarm bells ringing from a lone wolf (unkess we get magic scanners which know how many are in a ship)

I have gotten my monies worth out of the game already, but that said the more ED goes on the further away it gets from the game i backed