News 2.3 Dev Update

[Winterwalker]

The 30km limit scuppers SLF for exploration.

It's a real shame to be honest.

Such potential there but completely scuppered due to the tether range.

I would love for Frontier to find a way round the issue.

For what it's worth, because the 30km limit is (if I understand correctly) the line of sight distance that creates an instancing bubble, if you wanted to increase that limit you'd have to allow the fighter to create it's own instance. It makes logic sense to me, to nail down who could be in the fighter before you allow that to happen, as up to now that occupant could only be the Helm Cmdr, or NPC crew.

In 2.3, another human (Crew Cmdr) player could be in the fighter. Putting crew into the fighter wouldn't (I would think) make any difference (or rule out) allowing the fighter to create an instance in future but we definitely don't know how long Frontier have had it in mind that player crewmen would be able to pilot SLF .. or then, whether it would be worth it (dev resourcing wise) for FD to allow fighters to create an instance, already knowing that fighter's floating ID could be about to change (by link to a different player account to 'Crew' Cmdr X).

I think you would in that order, logically, choose to ID tag the fighter before you allowed it to go off on it's own and generate it's own instance. Not saying that's about to change of course (I don't know) but personally don't see anything in 2.3 stopping fighter driven instances from still being viable.

 

[TenakaFurey]

How about a for-instance?

Have you not read the thread?


Here are some of the effects that have been discussed...

1...it breaks immersion by going against the existing rules of the universe
2....it adds a Pay to Win element by adding pips
3...it devalues exploration, supposedly one of the core career paths of the game, by removing the travel and explore aspect
4...it affects balance by, as an example, allowing you to call for help and get a Telepresenced boost. We have the Fuel Rats...how long until fonaboost is formed?
5....it encourages griefing by giving griefers a Get Out of Jail free card with this crime wipe
6...Now I can earn money by simply sitting in another players ship and doing nothing
6a...Now I can earn RL money by letting others earn credits by sitting there and doing nothing
7...It sidelines Wings by duplicating rewards instead if sharing them
8...It constrains ship outfitting. What if I don't want turrets? Am I expected to reconfigure my ship to allow MCing and if so why is tbe insta crew needed?

And more.

You may think some of these issues don't affect you. You may think some of these issues are minor. But other players do consider them inportant and do think they affect them.

Now...at the minute we don't know specifics so there is the possibility that the system will have restrictions thay mitigate some of these issues. However, sitting back and saying nothing, raising no concerns, pointing out no problems or abuses or exploits is the wrong thing to do. Systems become a LOT harder to adjust once they have been released and it is ALWAYS better to be overly cautious. Players don't tend to accept nerfs once a system is in play.

- - - Updated - - -

Because Pulsar is nothing like ED.

The "galaxy" would literally behave differently. In the ways I bullet pointed.

For instance there'd need to be no penalty on death, the concept of Pulsar seems to almost be survival with death being inevitable.

Let me rephrase...why is adding different mechanics through which you can interact with the game universe...which has already happe ed as with SLFs...goung to break with the games reality?

 

[Acen ONYX]

I HAVE THE ANSWER to Telepresence vs Immersion!

So.. when I'm at Beagle Point, my friend in the bubble can just magically transport next to me in my ship?

Wow.

I truly, TRULY hope that there's some max distance player can magically transport, otherwise... bah.

Y'know, considering this idea, maybe a "max distance" isn't such a bad thing..

I mean, someone's already written that it COULD be a bit of a "fun-spoiler" to let ppl teleport into ships already at significant PoIs and therefore "missing out" on the Journey themselves..

But a VALID reply (given) to that, is "if that's how they want to play, whose business is it to deny them that choice?"

Significantly, though..

I think THE ANSWER IS IN THE CHOSEN WORD:
TELE-PRESENCE

If someone wants to "show a friend Sag-A" and "save them the extra hours flying out from the bubble themselves", then a galaxy-wide TELEPRESENCE would be an excellent facility.

At the same time, while I UNDERSTAND the calls re "immersion", I AGREE that -- for sake of "gameplay" together AND avoiding the extra TIME COST of "physically, in-game, travelling to meet" at the same station, an "insta-jump" is a decent way to accomplish this:

If Jack is in Colonia when he wants help on a mission but Jill's in the bubble, I think it's a Great Idea to be able to "beam her over".

HOWEVER, here's the 3-pt COMPROMISE I propose:

(1)
Allow "TELEPRESENCE" to work from/to ANYWHERE.
Telepresence specifically wouldn't be corporeal / physical, yet the telepresent crew should SEE & HEAR everything from within the Host ship and of course communicate with the Helm Commander.
The Telepresent crew CAN NOT control guns nor SLFs.

Telepresence is for OBSERVATION ONLY, and CAN be used in an "instructional" way (eg helping a friend new to E;D to "learn the ropes", much like a Driving Instructor sitting in a standard car, giving instructions but having NO control), or like a Tour Bus driver driving, and the TOURIST ONLY WATCHING & listening.

(2)
Allow "telePORTATION" to work within/from/to INHABITED SPACE ONLY, eg between the bubble and Colonia, but NOT "physical jump" out to e.g. Beagle Point. That is to say, facilitate Jill's call for Jack's aid, AND Jack WILL be able to "man the guns" and/or fly her SLF to help cover her.
(MAYBE a "non-inhabited-space max teleportation range" eg 500Ly where inhabited space MUST be at either end..? So SOME effort still needs to be made to man guns of/from a "remote" ship..?)

This could maybe use Nav Buoys + GalNet (which tend to be inhabited-space-wide coverage) as some "cover" for the "HOW" [immersion] of the telePORTation, while providing a decent COMPROMISE (re immersion vs insta-cross-galactic gunner/SLF pilot)..

I THINK THIS MAKES SENSE and could be a FAIR COMPROMISE.

Especially as the Multicrew feature is -- at least currently -- geared for combat (gunners & SLFs!) in the main, anyway, which "won't be needed" at Sag-A or Beagle Point.. (though -- sorry folks -- this would also mean no "instant" teleported crewmate for your SRV...)

(3)
PLUS, perhaps there should be some (credits) "cost" involved; a "teleportation fee" which might vary somewhat with distance and destination ship, since the idea is NOT to penalise Real World Time cost.

Teleport into a Cobra/Asp instantly & inexpensively, experience Multicrew; far less likely to be a ganking/griefing crew. Teleport into a 'Conda or Corvette, you PAY for the teleportation expensively -- you got a Conda (AND fighters)? You can afford it!

There COULD be an option to "share" the fee (0:100 through 50:50, up to 100:0), such could be discussed prior via the Comms interface, and the "fee-paying" mechanic could go back & forth between the two until either the entire fee is paid or the transaction is aborted. (I changed my mind, gimme my Cs back)

- - - Updated - - -

I think the concern is VALID re crime-wipe abuse by griefer-groups attacking newbies, and/or BGS-abuse of/against Minor Factions.

Adding a (credits) COST to Teleport INTO a ship to commit such crimes, then teleporting OUT "crime-free", credit-LESS, AND having paid a teleport fee would make such crime "pay" (somewhat)... but I don't think this would necessarily solve it sufficiently / satisfactorily..

All ships "have a registered manifest".
Plus, any "teleportation service" would "register" the Cmdr names & to(/from) which ship they're teleporting.
So, ultimately, it "would be known" specifically which Cmdr(s) were aboard which ships when such ships were reported as committing a crime (murder, etc).
And "knowing" that the MAIN guns are controlled by the Helm Cmdr, and TURRET guns by the Guest Cmdr, a typical "investigation" [immersion] would turn up THE culprit guilty of eg Murder.

So, even if a criminal gunner "teleports out", (s)he should still have received a bounty on their own head (not on the Helm Cmdr's head) if they pulled the turret-gun trigger.

 

[TenakaFurey]

I think THE ANSWER IS IN THE CHOSEN WORD:
TELE-PRESENCE

If someone wants to "show a friend Sag-A" and "save them the extra hours flying out from the bubble themselves", then a galaxy-wide TELEPRESENCE would be an excellent facility.

At the same time, while I UNDERSTAND the calls re "immersion", I AGREE that -- for sake of "gameplay" together AND avoiding the extra TIME COST of "physically, in-game, travelling to meet" at the same station, an "insta-jump" is a decent way to accomplish this:

Sure it is.

But that also devalues exploration. If you TP to Beagle Point, would you want to make the effort to go there again? By yourself? In your ship?

It would never be the same and exploration and travel is a core aspect of the game.

And that is on top of the other issues and problems. The potential impact on gameplay and game balance is much more troublesome.

As for immersion...teleporting won't wotk. Telepresence won't work.

If you are goi g to use this mechanic then you need to leave your Avatar behind. You....the player...possess a crewman on the target ship. And your friend does an asset transfer via a station bank using the same rules as ship transfer with whatever reward you two agree on. A day or wherever later, the station bank receives the authorisation to give you whatever goods or credits owed to you.

 

[Toumal]

You can earn RL money now?

Methinks some people here are seriously exaggerating things.

 

[CMDR Dash Rendar]

I can look up videos on Beagle Point or Sag A. Maybe even watch a stream. It doesn't at all devalue the journey because I haven't taken it. The person that feels like it is being devalued is YOU. It isn't a big deal.

 

[Winterwalker]

Here are some of the effects that have been discussed...

1...8

I'll have a little crack at commenting (listening to radio, waiting for the superbowl to start ;p)

1. Yes. Though there are some (possible) ways to invent a meme to give a kind of consistent explanation but mostly I think if the rules do get bent we should also allow for the (early) development of player to player interaction (as opposed to ship to ship interaction) in the game. Devs have to start somewhere. Any lore might be a bit unfinished but then again so is the mechanic so we have to decide whether player to player interaction in the long term could be worth short term inconvenience to the existing rules of universe. (though it is a stretch, see quantum entanglement EPR paradox, for super-light comms but the limits of crewing, basically being to operating guns only on remote ship in the OP I think falls somewhere short of 'instant travel by teleportation')

2. Not sure there's a pay to win element (oh yes, I got to 6) though there may be advantage to your turrets (which are the most inaccurate and lowest powered of the weapon sets, in 2.2). Depends on gunner skill imo.

3. We don't know what the UI will look like yet. It might be that you have a rubbish view, looking at the sights through a gun reticule but there isn't any mention (either way) in the OP about discovery tagging etc. My guess is they stay with the helm commander and you could be a passive passenger (could do some canyon running in fighter) but not much more than that? Jury is out imo.

4. 'Balance' is possibly a bit of an over analysed meme in ED. Engagements won't always be balanced (as any Sidewinder who ever bumped into an Anaconda will tell you) though it's still possible to punch above your weight by being a good pilot. On the other hand, 50/50 you never know, your gunner could be a real donkey .. better accuracy than auto-turrets, who knows, but might it stop chaff spamming from being a universal cure-all?

5. I don't read the OP as meaning the helm Commander can forget about bounties, only the player crew can (though also loses any bounties earned by ignoring crimes). As crew, this means if your helm decides the break the law you can plead innocence but if your crew breaks the law for you, that's NOT an advantage (see 4).

6. That's interesting! ++ see below.

7. Sidelines only if you're happy to spend most of your time basically at the mercy of another Commander's piloting. Personally don't 'feel like' it will sideline wings, but only time and testing will tell, I think.

8. Constrains ship outfitting but that's a price you pay for possible advantage gain.

TLDR;

Number 6, credit farming IS interesting but for me most of the others wouldn't amount to very much.

On number 6 we don't really know how ship rebuys will work (they're mentioned but not in massive detail in OP) but rebuys look a 'possible' cost to you, as crew (ie. sitting as crew isn't necessarily 'all benefit'). I'd ask anyway;

(a) would credit farming for others be against EULA (I could for eg. already, lend you my password for cash)

(b) would it even be, terribly terrible IF people with the time and the skill were able to monetise (it happens in other MMO's? Might hook some hard-core players into ED?) and

(c) could it even work as a potentially beneficial, embryonic player market? For instance, I'm a miner in game and have Painite coming out of my ears. Someone wants Painite, I can deliver but currently there's no way to remunerate for this high value commodity, or incentive to me (hard working miner that I am) for that P2P interaction. An hour in the crew-chair, credits for payment? All I'm saying is I wouldn't dismiss it totally before seeing what might emerge player market wise (many have been calling for one for quite a while). Not saying good or bad, but most interesting discussion of the eight, imo

 

[Dbrn47]

Sure it is.

But that also devalues exploration. If you TP to Beagle Point, would you want to make the effort to go there again? By yourself? In your ship?
.

Stop that. It may devalue yours, but it doesn't mine. I will never fly out to Beagle Point and I may never even go to Sag A* on my own. If I met someone that was already out there or going that way and I could check it out through multi-crew, I might take a look. There is no value for me in traveling those distances just to take screen shots, I'm not that kind of explorer. So please, let's drop the whole "devalues" argument. YOU can always fly there yourself regardless, if the value of it is high for YOU.

 

[Jacobus Franconium]

This is horible , and a death blow to the explorers and the one that want to find or solve puzzles on their own . and with certain events in particular .
Oh wait we have to find what and the first 10 will have a paintjob or can name a commodity .... hmm ah i found one oh lets invite some friends instantly . or have your friend instantly join to share data in puzzles when they are doing something els great job .

Give us the features promised and confirmed during the release of horizons life stream 7 december 2015 .
the same time the season passes and lifetime expansion where on sale .
Sounds like consumer fraud to me.

 

[bitstorm]

Sure it is.

But that also devalues exploration. If you TP to Beagle Point, would you want to make the effort to go there again? By yourself? In your ship?

You're not an explorer are you?

 

[bitstorm]

This is horible , and a death blow to the explorers

Look.

No explorer thinks an instant-multicrew jump to Beagle Point is even remotely comparable to the experience of getting in your ship and heading out there.

Go on YouTube if you want to see Beagle Point, it devalues nothing.

The Beagle Point system is nothing special, unless you've made the journey yourself, then it is.

Explorers enjoy exploration, do you understand?

There's also the tiny fact that the only way you get to see Beagle Point via multicrew is if an explorer invites you.

If an explorer fancies inviting someone to show them, good for them.

 

[TenakaFurey]

Stop that. It may devalue yours, but it doesn't mine. I will never fly out to Beagle Point and I may never even go to Sag A* on my own. If I met someone that was already out there or going that way and I could check it out through multi-crew, I might take a look. There is no value for me in traveling those distances just to take screen shots, I'm not that kind of explorer. So please, let's drop the whole "devalues" argument. YOU can always fly there yourself regardless, if the value of it is high for YOU.

That it may or may not devalue YOUR experience is meaningless. That it is being discussed shows that it WILL be devalued by others....and therefore it IS an issue. Reavhing Beagle Point...being there...or Sag A*, or Hatton Station is an achievement for some people. Something THEY have done. A point of pride.

And just because there is no value in the trip for you does not mean others share your view. And it is supremely arrogant of you to tell me to drop the whole "devalues" argument simply because the way YOU play the game means such trips have no value to you. It doesn't matter how important they are to other players....all that matters is you.

You don't like long trips...you don't want the challenge or achievement of getting to these distant stars....the Distant Worlds expedition to you was likely a huge waste of time.....and so the experiences and values of players who do value these aspects are meaningless.

I disagree with that viewpoint.

Exploration will be devalued. The who experience of heading off into the wilderness of space will be devalued simply because FD are adding a shortcut. You may not see value in this but others do.

Now...what about trading. This implementation devalues trading. I can sit on someone elses cockpit for free and rack up millions upon millions of credits by doing....nothing.

Combat? Having the ability to pay to get extra power pips for your ship devalues skill in combat. How do you feel knowing that the only reason you are losing fights is that your opponent has bought an extra copy of the game so he can give himself more power?

What aspect of the game do you care about and don't want to see devalued? Believe it or not...some players don't share your disdain for exploration and challenges such as the trip to Beagle. And they are just as important as you.

 

[Ddtdmbow]

These are all great ideas but I don't see why someone just can't do those things when they're not manning a turret or fighter.

 

[TenakaFurey]

I can look up videos on Beagle Point or Sag A. Maybe even watch a stream. It doesn't at all devalue the journey because I haven't taken it. The person that feels like it is being devalued is YOU. It isn't a big deal.

Ahhh....so because this change would devalue my experiences within the hame but not yours, we can just ignore it. So long as YOUR needs and wants are taken off, everyone else on the game can go hang.

Gotcha.

 

[CapnHyaku]

There's also the tiny fact that the only way you get to see Beagle Point via multicrew is if an explorer invites you.

If an explorer fancies inviting someone to show them, good for them.

Agreed.

The only "devalue" I see is that some people think that you should only be allowed to see something unless you travelled hours to see it. And frankly, I think that is selfish and sad. It reminds me of an older lady I once met who was going to vote against a political party because they were going to introduce a paid parental leave scheme, saying literally "I didn't get it so why should they." If you find other people enjoying this great game irritating because the developers add a feature that literally has no effect on you [literally, if someone (not you) jumps to a ship (not yours) it has no effect on you], then it says a lot about you.

This is a game. A multiplayer game. A game that is global and has to accommodate numerous players work schedules and time zones. Anything that makes it easier and convenient to have multiplayer experiences given these constraints is a good thing.

I know a bunch of CMDR's that are looking forward to instant multi-crew enhancing their game-play and it has nothing to do with exploration.

 

[Dbrn47]

That it may or may not devalue YOUR experience is meaningless. That it is being discussed shows that it WILL be devalued by others....and therefore it IS an issue. Reavhing Beagle Point...being there...or Sag A*, or Hatton Station is an achievement for some people. Something THEY have done. A point of pride.

And just because there is no value in the trip for you does not mean others share your view. And it is supremely arrogant of you to tell me to drop the whole "devalues" argument simply because the way YOU play the game means such trips have no value to you. It doesn't matter how important they are to other players....all that matters is you.

You don't like long trips...you don't want the challenge or achievement of getting to these distant stars....the Distant Worlds expedition to you was likely a huge waste of time.....and so the experiences and values of players who do value these aspects are meaningless.

I disagree with that viewpoint.

Exploration will be devalued. The who experience of heading off into the wilderness of space will be devalued simply because FD are adding a shortcut. You may not see value in this but others do.

Now...what about trading. This implementation devalues trading. I can sit on someone elses cockpit for free and rack up millions upon millions of credits by doing....nothing.

Combat? Having the ability to pay to get extra power pips for your ship devalues skill in combat. How do you feel knowing that the only reason you are losing fights is that your opponent has bought an extra copy of the game so he can give himself more power?

What aspect of the game do you care about and don't want to see devalued? Believe it or not...some players don't share your disdain for exploration and challenges such as the trip to Beagle. And they are just as important as you.

Um, hello, aren't you doing the same meaningless thing by trying to argue that it devalues it? I could repeat everything back to you to fit how I view it. I don't have disdain for Exploration either, I just don't count others money or achievements as if it means anything to how I play the game. Let's not fool ourselves into believing getting to Beagle Point is a real challenge either. I can load up an engineered Asp or Conda just as anyone else and the only challenge that I'll meet is one of patience... Weeks of logging in just to view loading screens a hundred times a night. Hooo boy.

Multi-Crew is optional. So let's be real here, this is another one of those attempts to enforce how you feel the game should be played. Your achievement doesn't have to be devalued if you don't want it to since you can easily make these trips yourself and not allow anyone on your ship if you don't want to.

The only real value in a game is how entertained you are, how much fun you have. Are you not entertained? Will this REALLY somehow affect your fun? If it does, it shouldn't, because you are playing a game, not feeding starving children or creating a vaccine to cure deadly diseases.

 

[Dbrn47]

Fine, then we can close this thread, now where your desires are satisfied. [big grin]


If you develop this thought further you could remove all credits as well and give away any available ship for free. All this stupid "work" for better ships would finally come to an end.
As a preferable side effect we all would gain perfect equality of opportunity... At which point I'd very likely play another game but who cares.

Or we can work on actually making the game deep and create real challenges with rewards that are worth something, but that's neither here nor there, has nothing to do with multicrew.

 

[Ozram]

Or we can work on actually making the game deep and create real challenges with rewards that are worth something, but that's neither here nor there, has nothing to do with multicrew.

Indeed. On a side note, it'd be awesome to be able to take an FGS and have the ship fly heavy support with an SLF and an srv in action.

 

[CMDR Dash Rendar]

Ahhh....so because this change would devalue my experiences within the hame but not yours, we can just ignore it. So long as YOUR needs and wants are taken off, everyone else on the game can go hang.

Gotcha.

You aren't getting it are you??? The journey is what matters. You can say you've seen Sag A or seen Beagle point, but if you haven't taken the journey, then what does it even matter? You want to remove a feature because you are afraid that people will use to get quick looks at things you think are important. Too important to leave a feature out of the game? That is NOT the case. Right now, you can go on a stream or youtube video and SEE these places. Who gives a damn if you've been to these places. The journey is what counts.

Considering we are using telepresence, we aren't even technically there.

 

[Dbrn47]

Indeed. On a side note, it'd be awesome to be able to take an FGS and have the ship fly heavy support with an SLF and an srv in action.

That sounds like a lot of fun actually. Add some difficult bases that really require coordination between the 3 vehicles and multiple roles. Attack Ancient Base: Use the Gunship to take out the point defenses that threaten the SLF who needs to take out the base's sensors so you can sneak in the SRV that has an Engineer who knows how to disable the power generators to bring down the shields that protect the base's mainframe from the full firepower of the Gunship. Or something, didn't really put much thought into it but I can visualize things like this that could be really fun. It doesn't even have to be combat oriented either, could easily be turned into a non-combat situation.