3.0 offers absolutely no protection against big player ships griefing small player ships

Simple solution: Don't play in open. The greifers all want us there, and the only way to defeat the greigers is to deprive them of their one resource: other players.

Pretty much. This is why Mobius and Solo are so popular in Elite. It’s the only true and most effective defense against the griefers.

I still contend that all of the work Frontier put into C&P for 3.0 would have been far better spent simply adding an official PvE mode to the game, an official “Mobius Mode” that wasn’t a private group but rather an Open mode which prevents player on player damage and such. Then you’d have Open PvP for the people who want the true open experience dangers and all, but you’d also have Open PvE for those of us who don’t want any PvP experiences of any sort. It would have been a far easier solution to implement while also being more effective too, because it directly addresses what the players actually want on both sides. PvP players want to be able to PvP anywhere at any time in a Wild West environment and the new C&P changes work against that. PvE players want to be able to play in a friendly cooperative multiplayer environment completely safe from griefers and unwanted PvP action and the new C&P system does not provide that.

The new C&P system hurts PvP players while failing to give PvE players what they want. Simply splitting the playerbase into their two separate groups would have given everyone a much more fun gaming experience in my opinion. It’s how most MMO’s handle it and there is a reason for that: it’s simple and it works.

For some reason though Frontier really doesn’t want to do it.
 
As in Real Life, Crime & Punishment is not there to guard you and it does not care about you (and it shouldn't), it's there to punish whoever harms you. If your aggressor is willing to accept the consequences of his actions, then he will act as he wants.

C&P : Crime and Punishment, not Coddling & Protection.
 
The poor guy you quoted is literally caught in a loop of perma-pew (judging by his avatar).
I wonder whether that's treatable...

he quoted absinth and churchill. which one?

(asking because i don't know much about absinth, but churchill would sort of fit the description if you take 'avatar' in a metaphoric sense :D)
 
As per the features of 3.0:



So what about new players that get griefed by players in big ships? They just get away with it?

My friend just got rammed to death in his Cobra by an Imp Clipper, and now he doesn't even have enough money for his rebuy. So much for "improved" crime and punishment.

What a total loophole.

Baffles me why if you're new, lack skill and or have a low-end ship with no rebuy credits on account that you'd fly in open. Solo and Private group seem obvious to me. Flying without rebuy is dumb all in itself anyway.
Whining about griefers won't change them doing what they do. Fly in a wing with better players, play solo or private until you get a better ship and more skills fighting. Duh!
 
The new C&P system hurts PvP players while failing to give PvE players what they want. Simply splitting the playerbase into their two separate groups would have given everyone a much more fun gaming experience in my opinion. It’s how most MMO’s handle it and there is a reason for that: it’s simple and it works.

For some reason though Frontier really doesn’t want to do it.

The shared BGS is sacrosanct. :(
 
I think you and other people might have different definitions of PvP. To me, PvP is consensual. Something I decide to take part in and is not forced upon me by a random Beluga suddenly broadsiding me.
Toggle my PvP tag on, join a battleground, that sort of thing.

Yep, that's a problem right there - your expectation. PvP doesn't require consent.

I don't usually take part in these discussions. But that's definitely a problem in "PvP" communities. I've been playing World of Warcraft for over 13 years on a pvp server. Ganking is pvp. Non-consensual pvp is STILL pvp. Everything Sandro said is correct in ANY pvp game. Watch your surroundings. Know where your enemies are. Know what your enemies are doing. The difference in this game is that there are no "sides." Therefore, you have to be aware of what every single player is doing around you.

Does it suck for a new player? Absolutely. But we all made it through it didn't we?
 

ALGOMATIC

Banned
Hello Commanders!

For the record, ramming is something we're still looking at, along with combat logging. Regardless though, I would offer all Commanders this advice:

* Always try to keep awareness of your sensor dislpay for hollow signatures, which represent other Commanders, and never ignore them.
* Always switch to a flight pattern that allows you to at least see how other Commanders' ships are flying relative to you.
* Immediately check power and power distribution management to ensure your vessel is combat/escape capable when other ships are present.
* Always keep an eye on Comms chatter and info panel messages when other ships are present.
* Treat proximity by any vessel as suspsicious.
* Always have a hyperspace route plotted.

AKA Git Gud!
 

ALGOMATIC

Banned
Pretty much. This is why Mobius and Solo are so popular in Elite. It’s the only true and most effective defense against the griefers.

I still contend that all of the work Frontier put into C&P for 3.0 would have been far better spent simply adding an official PvE mode to the game, an official “Mobius Mode” that wasn’t a private group but rather an Open mode which prevents player on player damage and such. Then you’d have Open PvP for the people who want the true open experience dangers and all, but you’d also have Open PvE for those of us who don’t want any PvP experiences of any sort. It would have been a far easier solution to implement while also being more effective too, because it directly addresses what the players actually want on both sides. PvP players want to be able to PvP anywhere at any time in a Wild West environment and the new C&P changes work against that. PvE players want to be able to play in a friendly cooperative multiplayer environment completely safe from griefers and unwanted PvP action and the new C&P system does not provide that.

The new C&P system hurts PvP players while failing to give PvE players what they want. Simply splitting the playerbase into their two separate groups would have given everyone a much more fun gaming experience in my opinion. It’s how most MMO’s handle it and there is a reason for that: it’s simple and it works.

For some reason though Frontier really doesn’t want to do it.

Or you could use the availble game mechanics to protect yourself and stop hopping that daddy fdev will do this for you.
 
The new C&P system hurts PvP players while failing to give PvE players what they want. Simply splitting the playerbase into their two separate groups would have given everyone a much more fun gaming experience in my opinion. It’s how most MMO’s handle it and there is a reason for that: it’s simple and it works.

For some reason though Frontier really doesn’t want to do it.

Because it is boring, it splits player base and there's tools already allowing players to play away from griefers.

Open is for those who still want to have reasonable in-game PvP - and new system is right step into that direction.
 
I find it sad that all the advice for surviving in Open boils down to "treat all other players as if they will kill you for no reason." Seriously, what's the point in playing in Open if that's best the game designers can come up with?

I've never been rammed to death and never died to an interdiction. I have, however, died multiple times to station campers. Wings of large ships that kill anyone going in or out of the station (usually the CG). This, from my experience, is not only the most common form of PvP but the one that the "git gud" crowd never addresses.

Forex, I'm docked in a station in a Type 7 and outside are two Anacondas and a Cutter that will open fire the instant I leave the slot. Is there any "advice" that will avoid my inevitable death? I've never seen any. At least the new ATR system might (not optimistic) address this.
 
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Hello Commanders!

For the record, ramming is something we're still looking at, along with combat logging. Regardless though, I would offer all Commanders this advice:

* Always try to keep awareness of your sensor dislpay for hollow signatures, which represent other Commanders, and never ignore them.
* Always switch to a flight pattern that allows you to at least see how other Commanders' ships are flying relative to you.
* Immediately check power and power distribution management to ensure your vessel is combat/escape capable when other ships are present.
* Always keep an eye on Comms chatter and info panel messages when other ships are present.
* Treat proximity by any vessel as suspsicious.
* Always have a hyperspace route plotted.
Excellent advice there Sandro!

Beats just posting: git gud, by a landslide on a black planet in a dark universe that isn't there.
 

stormyuk

Volunteer Moderator
I think you and other people might have different definitions of PvP. To me, PvP is consensual. Something I decide to take part in and is not forced upon me by a random Beluga suddenly broadsiding me.

No, in Elite Dangerous it isn't this is the mistake people are making time and time again. To you it might be, to Elite Dangerous it completely and utterly is not.
 
I find it sad that all the advice for surviving in Open boils down to "treat all other players as if they will kill you for no reason." Seriously, what's the point in playing in Open if that's best the game designers can come up with?

That's part of the appeal. If you don't like the feeling of paranoia that comes with it, you can either play in one of the modes made for players like you or play with friends that will protect you.

Forex, I'm docked in a station in a Type 7 and outside are two Anacondas and a Cutter that will open fire the instant I leave the slot. Is there any "advice" that will avoid my inevitable death? I've never seen any. At least the new ATR system might (not optimistic) address this.

The station would kill them. This wouldn't prevent your death of course, you're in a Type 7, nothing can and should allow a Type 7 to get away from a proper gank from big warships. But as soon as they'd shoot at you, the station would answer in kind. And the station packs much bigger guns.

Unless it's happening at an anarchy jurisdiction of course, at which point who cares, you knew what you were getting into.
 
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Hello Commanders!

For the record, ramming is something we're still looking at, along with combat logging. Regardless though, I would offer all Commanders this advice:

* Always try to keep awareness of your sensor dislpay for hollow signatures, which represent other Commanders, and never ignore them.
* Always switch to a flight pattern that allows you to at least see how other Commanders' ships are flying relative to you.
* Immediately check power and power distribution management to ensure your vessel is combat/escape capable when other ships are present.
* Always keep an eye on Comms chatter and info panel messages when other ships are present.
* Treat proximity by any vessel as suspsicious.
* Always have a hyperspace route plotted.

Most polite "git good" ever. ;)
 
That's part of the appeal. If you don't like the feeling of paranoia that comes with it, you can either play in one of the modes made for players like you or play with friends that will protect you.
Or fly in a cheap ship with an easy rebuy so you stop caring about it all, and consider interdictions as a comfort break :)
 
To play devil's advocate;

I think you and other people might have different definitions of PvP. To me, PvP is consensual. Something I decide to take part in and is not forced upon me by a random Beluga suddenly broadsiding me.

Toggle my PvP tag on, join a battleground, that sort of thing.

Then there's ganking, in open PvP rulesets, where you just sit ontop of somebody's corpse and kill them indefinitely. Generally frowned upon in most communities. Why shouldn't it be frowned upon here? It should be. That's the end of that discussion afaic.

Then there's piracy, that's a PvP activity, that nobody seems to bother with because for one, whenever I'm interdicted by another player, I immediatley high wake out. Which makes pirates give up trying and turn to simple murder.

It's a catch 22.

Nobody is talking about actual solutions to this problem. Because it is a problem. You can't even talk about it without the discussion turning toxic. The 'carebear' side is eating the 'git gud forum dad' side and vica versa.

Furthermore, tinfoil hat on, the toxicity between the two vocal majorities on the topic is beneficial for the developers, because they don't need to actually do something about it. They contribute some half- forum post to the discussion and that's done with.

I'm not saying that's what they're doing. Because they're Frontier and not EA, but it does make you wonder sometimes.

Tinfoil hat off.

I liked your devil's advocacy, o7

Personally I behave as you would wish but I don't think that means everyone else has to join me.

What I mean is: I started attacking other players in March 2015. However, every single other player I've attacked was either Wanted or a Powerplay enemy (outside of the strict exception of player group warfare, when I used to be in AA). In other words, I've never attacked a random. I don't even kill players in CZ's unless its consistent with mah Federal RP (i.e. they are fighting for non-Fed v Fed).

I'm an outlier, I guess. There aren't many of us left, who combine RP with PvP. And I have killed a lot of players, including quite weak ones (OOC I sometimes turn a blind eye to e.g. low rank Powerplay enemy Cmdrs, or those probably carrying explo data, but not always). So basically you could say that I am playing this game as aggressively as you can whilst still consistent with Sandro/Braben's vision of a Wanted or Powerplay tag being the attack trigger.

But ... I don't think everyone has to play the way I do. I have no problem with 'vegan Open'. Some guys don't want to attack anyone, ever. Also I have no problem with piracy, or 'kill em all'. About the latter murder-hobo-ing in particular, that is what the in-game crime system is for. 3.0 of course buffs that. We shall see by how much.

But, I repeat, one thing that basically all present or former members of PvP groups agree upon is that in-game is in-game. The deal is between Customer and Developer, not Customer and Customer.

So basically, don't hack or log and you're golden. This is why whatever else we might shout at each other, you won't see AA and SDC or whoever shouting at each other on here about whether SDC blew up an explorer or something. That's just in-game, and comes back to in-game rules and in-game tools.

Am I saying there's no room for personal ethics (RP or otherwise) in video gaming? No. You can see that I apply them personally. But personally = 'personally'. I don't demand them of others.

Or put another way...


To me, PvP is consensual.
No, in Elite Dangerous it isn't this is the mistake people are making time and time again. To you it might be, to Elite Dangerous it completely and utterly is not.


... the more succinct version ^^
 
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rootsrat

Volunteer Moderator
Because it is boring, it splits player base and there's tools already allowing players to play away from griefers.

Open is for those who still want to have reasonable in-game PvP - and new system is right step into that direction.

The problem here is that we have a lot of griefing-style PVP, rather than reasonable PVP.

I'm really glad that the new C&P is in. Let's hope that when it's finally combined with karma system (hopefully coming sometime soonTM) and whatever they will implement to tackle CL and ramming, it will be enough to reduce griefing/ganking and promote actual reasonable PVP, rather than the seal clubbing that we experience now more often than not.

If someone wants to play murderer - fair enough, it's their choice, but there should be consequences to one's actions. Both in the immediate (C&P) and long term (karma) context.

Personally - I am not really THAT bothered, because I'm experienced enough to know how to avoid gankers and griefers, but I can see how this is damaging for the community and the game as a whole.
 
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