Powerplay 5C (Fifth Column) strikes Felicia Winters. Frontier needs to act.

In the last few weeks I proposed a totally separate Open Only server, I honestly think it's the only way.
You miss the most important thing here why Open Only in fact does not make much sense in ED universe - instancing. Even in Open, you can't instance with people on other platforms, rarely instance with people who blocked you or are on another continent. So, even if this misguided desire for open only somehow happens, a group on XBox will be able to work against you silently, similar to what now happens with Solo/PG. On top of that, if NOT instancing with you gives somebody an advantage, you can bet people will be messing with their routers and firewalls to get that advantage with no reasonable way for Frontier to enforce instancing.
 
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You miss the most important thing here why Open Only in fact does not make much sense in ED universe - instancing. Even in Open, you can't instance with people on other platforms, rarely instance with people who blocked you or are on another continent. So, even if this misguided desire for open only somehow happens, a group on XBox will be able to work against you silently, similar to what now happens with Solo/PG. On top of that, if NOT instancing with you gives somebody an advantage, you can bet people will be messing with their routers and firewalls to get that advantage with no reasonable way for Frontier to enforce instancing.
I assume there would be X box players working for you, just as they are against you though? You are condensing down 9 dimensions into 3 (so instead of 3 solo, 3 PG and 3 Open you have 3 Open Only)

The Block feature in ED would have to change, for the simple fact in PP is OK to kill. It would be lunacy to have an opt in feature that meant you could block those who decide to shoot you 'legitimately'.

Router fiddling will always be a problem, but thats one step better than exploiting poor design in the game feature itself. Fiddling is plain cheating, and if whole powers are never seen at all during highly contested expansions or areas I'm sure FD would love to know about that. But that again would take spine from FD to actually be active about PP. The last couple of years it seems FD don't give a toss.

The bottom line is that the proposal is the best we have until FD tell us otherwise.
 
Instancing is not good but it's not a solid brick wall that can't be breached either. There are ways to overcome that too.

So open only is not in anyway misguided in fact competition should not be able without direct confrontation.
 
The Block feature in ED would have to change, for the simple fact in PP is OK to kill. It would be lunacy to have an opt in feature that meant you could block those who decide to shoot you 'legitimately'.
I have to agree with this point.

As a thought experiment, I also wonder could PP be made to override the mode filter?
So someone could load up in Solo / PG, but if they are part of one of the powers, then other aligned people would still pop up in your game.
I'd actually like to know if that is possible. So PP would still be available in all modes, technically ;)

Instancing is not good but it's not a solid brick wall that can't be breached either. There are ways to overcome that too.

So open only is not in anyway misguided in fact competition should not be able without direct confrontation.
As has been said elsewhere, the game is too easy to manipulate because of it being instanced & Peer to Peer.
Open Only does not solve this issue.

Heck on my cheap Sky Broadband, the last time 2 out of 3 of my children hit YouTube, Jameson went from being a busy station to 2 AFK people on my scanner in 30 seconds.
And yes, this was in Open Mode.

I'm not going to go into specifics on how to do that on purpose, but I'd argue out of all the ED player base, people who PP are more aware of the game, it's mechanics and its weaknesses.
Meaning if someone really wants to "troll" unopposed (or 5C unopposed), they'd know exactly how to do that in an Open Only version of the game.
So all you'd do is remove people from Solo and PG who'd actually help you defend from those people. Making it harder for you, not for the "trolls" / 5C players.

Plus there was a post in the Focus Feedback on how to 5C in Open Only without even having to mess with the weakness of P2P.

Alas, 5C in its current form cannot be fixed until Frontier decide they made a mistake allowing powers to be attacked like that from within.
And I'm yet to see them own up to that one. So until they do, they will not fix it as it is "working as intended".
 
Reading through the thread, I see the life force of PowerPlay, salt, is in high evidence :) Whilst I strongly despise 5C - especially the bottom-scraping tactic of 5C forting bad systems so they can't be lost in a turmoil (this is lower that even 5C prepping systems, as there is literally nothing a power can do to oppose it)...and Certainly Hudson will NEVER engage in such activity.... I think some people have resorted to this below-the-belt activity because PowerPlay had come to stagnation. With pretty much any profitable system gone, a Power is left with few choices - either be happy with your lot, and fort and keep that status quo, or weaponise expansions to bring down your enemies CC, then turmoil them (actually a long and difficult process) - or take the short cut to reduce their CC. The 5C probably comes from a sense of frustration, mischief, or just people who don't give a anymore because FDEV have ignored PowerPlay for so long, ignored so many faults... Then dangled some nice solutions in front of our noses, got massive amounts of feedback, and then continued to do nothing. Frustrating.

Still, the animosity between Feds and ZYADA grows, and thats the fountain of salt that drives CMDRs like Fry to push 140k merits in a week - Thats a good 50-60 hours work! i.e. at the moment, motivation is with ZYADA, Feds are feeling bruised and sore. But the Salt Mountain will feed the comeback, and drive us to continue PowerPlay. Feds rule Open skies - we will always want our opponents to be in Open. I wish more ZYADA would come into open and join the few Imps and EGCF - those battles are genuinely enjoyable, and PowerPlay should encourage such things. Those ZYADA in open gain respect for their cause. Those doing 5C and hauling in solo/PG whether for their own power, or for a power they want to kill from the inside remove that respect. It does feed the narrative on both sides though, so keeps it engaging in a perverse way.

Sandro's idea of Undermining a system 100% above the fort level is simple, and would remove the problem of stagnation which drives 5C, and would give a mechanism for not only "stealing" good systems from another power, but also give a counter to 5C forting of systems a power wants to lose. If there is one thing that would improve PowerPlay and make it much more dynamic, and less susceptible to nefarious gameplay, then thats it. We will likely never get open only, or many of the other ideas of mission-related PowerPlay gameplay, but this is one proposal, that if implemented, might just give PowerPlay a refresh. Tactics would have to change. I'd also advocate removal of the news, so snipes can be a thing again....

Anyway.. bit rambling, but PowerPlay does at least reflect real life politics - fake news, propaganda, underhand methods, a few enjoyable "debates" in open (in this case with Plasmas and rails), and a lot of grinding work behind the scenes to make one power's dreams come true, carried out by the faithful. The small but dedicated communities within each power make friends, work together, and try to oppose or gain advantage on other player groups. These communities are PowerPlay. Just hope 5C doesn't turn them off it.

And last word. The biggest salt of all, is the quite frankly, tedious and predictable posts that contain the phases "I don't do power play but" - or "gave up on power play long ago", or "tried power play for 5 minutes and found it boring" etc.... This is a thread about power play related issues, which the other posters want to discuss. We don't care if you don't engage with power play - its clear you have way too much time on your hands if you are reading stuff about something in which you have no interest. Please consider making useful comments like "why are you guys so het up about all this - what did I miss in Powerplay that engages you all so much?" .... or pass onto the next thread which may be more interesting.
 
Yeah sure, keep arguing and whatnot, but when is someone going to tell me why OP wrote the name Felicia Winters twice in the thread title?
 
I think we are doing a lot of confusion, everybody: we use to mix the "open play" factor with the "5C" one.

Open Only is something all the game mechanics should benefit: as somebedy wrote before, the all c&p system, the PvP criminal activities AND bounty hunter activities NEED to be Open Only. Open Only would change how people fit their ships, no more paperthin-hulled traders, or jumping ships, turreted kinetic weapons, mines etc would find a purpose finally.

5C is a totally different problem, and it's a "bad design" kind of problem. The fact is that Powerplay was meant to be a decentralized game, but the very nature of the maths behind Powerplay need strictly organised groups and actions to avoid collapse (not the collapse Frontier promised, but an impossibility to keep on with the game).

So we should discuss the 5C problem WITHOUT talking about Open Play. And don't get me wrong: I WANT Open Play so bad, an Open Only server would be perfect, I'd gladly start from a new CMDR if requested.

But 5C is a different kind of problem and we need measures to make it pointless.

I will post (again) my proposals to change Powerplay keeping it as it is right now.

- No Overhead
- Higher Upkeeps
- Competitive Triggers for Fortification/Undermining (when both above the triggers, +100% = fortified, -100% = undermined)
- Single systems go turmoil if they go negative (upkeep for far systems should be very high, making you forced to fortify them to keep them), the week after there's a conflict to decide if it's lost
- Considering that underminers would be advantaged, make power commodities far less expensive (would be awesome to have other activities too, like missions, but I can't ask that much :p )
- Preparations only until tuesday, wednesday is a "voting only day", yes/no votes for each remaining preparation, 5 weighted vote for rating 5 CMDRs, 2 for rating 4, 1 for rating 3, rating 2 and 1 CMDRs can't vote
- Powerplay modules available to tech-brokers too (we don't want shoppers! :p )
- weekly salary proportional to the total CCs of the Power (similar to community goals), so that the mor systems you control, the higher the potential CCs, the higher the reward for the Players
- BGS and PP linked by Superpower and not Governments as they are right now
- closest control systems to the headquarter have priority on overlapping systems: doing so it would be easier to "defend" the CCs from overlapping systems, because the trigger to fortify them would be higher
- no more Allied Powers: if minor factions of the same superpower can go war against each other I can't see why the Powers shouldn't behave the same
- even if it's not enough: open only
-if open only: undermining merits are counted in REAL TIME, not when redeemed, but ONLY if this game is becoming Open Only
- regular measures taken against bots and cheaters, checking the control systems of each and single power and the expansion systems too, if a bots is spotted by the devs their merits should be erased from the total amount and that account banned for good (not 72 hours ban), or at least banned from Powerplay

All these things could be done in a really short time, and would solve most of our 5C problems. We should discuss about this, of course I'm positive my proposal would be the best possible solution because I made that, but please, let's talk about something "real" for once, let's try to understand what we can actually do for Powerplay, elaborate a common proposal, a common technical proposal, or maybe we are all just talk about taking measures against 5C, bots and cheaters, because it's easy to say that "we do not like them too!" when we do not take actions against that.

Rules MUST change. Even if these rules would not benefit some groups. We have to seek for FAIR rules. Not the best for our group. Because the actual rules are not fair, and who's winning is clearly exploiting them, so again: cut the crap, nobody cares who's winning, the game as a whole is losing.
 
Why is it that when this was happening to AD, there was no uproar? only now that it's happening to the fuc boys that fdev needs to addres it?
I'm pretty sure 5C has always been a hot topic in here. It's been since I play Powerplay to be honest.

And again: I remember very well which leaderships opposed the solution offered by a developer.

I've got my opinion about that, it's all about defending the status quo, isn't it? :)

Anyway: do we want to keep this little game, blaming each other, trying to find who 5Ced more the others? Or do we want now, just for one time, try to find solutions to the problem?

Or maybe you just want to play this game by yourselves. Maybe you'll find that amusing after there will be nobody left to 5C and to claim your victories over.

Go on, do that, it's gonna be like jerking off then call all of your friends to tell them how good you were to yourself.

I find that a little creepy, but people have fun as they like, so...
 
I'm pretty sure 5C has always been a hot topic in here. It's been since I play Powerplay to be honest.

And again: I remember very well which leaderships opposed the solution offered by a developer.

I've got my opinion about that, it's all about defending the status quo, isn't it? :)

Anyway: do we want to keep this little game, blaming each other, trying to find who 5Ced more the others? Or do we want now, just for one time, try to find solutions to the problem?

Or maybe you just want to play this game by yourselves. Maybe you'll find that amusing after there will be nobody left to 5C and to claim your victories over.

Go on, do that, it's gonna be like jerking off then call all of your friends to tell them how good you were to yourself.

I find that a little creepy, but people have fun as they like, so...
https://media.giphy.com/media/yVcHbFaITqZos/giphy.gif
 
Making PP open only is a no-go the best way would be a times 10 (or some number) to make open count. At present I can destroy anyone with a logout.
 
Dude again, really: not as clever as you think you are. And that's spam. Let the grown-ups talk.
You only fly around in Grom space... and you're the grown up? Please.

You seem to be inserting yourself in matters best left to the actual adults.
 
You only fly around in Grom space... and you're the grown up? Please.

You seem to be inserting yourself in matters best left to the actual adults.
No man, I am the grown-up in this situation because I'm not spamming in a thread that's talking about something that's critical to this game mechanic as you are. So if you have something useful to say you're more than welcome to say that, if not... well, at least just stop trying to be the clever one because trust me: it's just you thinking so high about yourself.

Proof is that you are trying to turn that to some kind of "in game thing", which is not the problem right now.

Again: let the grown-ups talking about this thing, if you've got nothing useful to say.

If you have: please contribute. We really need everybody thought about that.

PS Just for your knowledge: I was in the top 5-ish (can't remember well) during the Shattered Prism operation. Always in Open. Nobody caught basking. Such a shame.
 
Alas, 5C in its current form cannot be fixed until Frontier decide they made a mistake allowing powers to be attacked like that from within.
And I'm yet to see them own up to that one. So until they do, they will not fix it as it is "working as intended".
That's the key point here. And you can't really deal with it without making it impossible for a power to make mistakes, making the gameplay essentially meaningless grindfest, more so than it is today. TBH, I don't see any viable solution here.
 
That's the key point here. And you can't really deal with it without making it impossible for a power to make mistakes, making the gameplay essentially meaningless grindfest, more so than it is today. TBH, I don't see any viable solution here.
This is the key flaw that players pointed out weeks into 1.3s release, and FD have tried to fix a couple of times before shrugging and drinking tea. The bare minimum to make it harder is Sandros proposals, but ideally FD would need to rework the whole thing. In the New Era™ they may do that, but they have to really engage with the playerbase in a way that they never have before and really support Powerplay.
 
I think that at some point we almost help Frontier Development to ignore us. We don't really have some "unitary" proposal, all the Powers are mostly too busy exploiting the actual faulty game mechanics to get back to each other, and somehow the status quo is maintained.

So a smart move should be to first of all find something we all can agree on, and then show it to FDev with the request to be reasonably fast to do that.

Because we're the middle child in here, we're basically invisible, and honestly I'm sick and tired to be. We had a Focused Feedback. We did great back then. I think we can do that again, by our own.
 
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