Powerplay 5C (Fifth Column) strikes Felicia Winters. Frontier needs to act.

[Justinian Octavius]

Last night with an hour and a half to go, 26 thousand merits got hauled between then and tick time to narrowly "win" that expansion. The traffic report at Lazdongand showed a big jump in visits by Cutters.

This 5C tonnage is not unusual, they dumped 40k on a Torval system in the last hour once. You have the resources to cover that margin so I'm afraid you'll just have to build the safety margin into your operation. The fact of the matter is that if you want Weaponised Expansions, which I don't, then you'll also have the chance for someone to Weaponise something you really don't want Weaponised.

I believe Frontier can probably find out who this shadowy group was: they can read players logs like anyone else. I'm going to call on Frontier to examine their records for last night for a) players who suddenly switched pledged from their power to join WInters, and b) hauled expansion merits to Lazdongand. I believe they've broken the spirit of the game of Powerplay if not the rules, and should be punished.

The other Powers have been getting trashed by 5C for years. FDev won't do what you ask because 5C are not actually breaking any game rules. In fact probably the only exploit used will have been by you during the Opposing of the Expansion by manipulating the Nav Beacon to force spawn Power NPCs.

Frontier needs to do something soon to address it,

Do what? Will your Power accept a fundamental change in mechanics that removes things such as deficit spheres? Yes, no? You gave a personal opinion.

CMDR Justinian Octavius

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

If you're using plugins, you are giving yourself a significant edge on those who are not.

In most other games, this usually results in accounts being banned and players IP's being permanantly blocked from the servers.

I think it's about time people learned to play the game instead of relying on a multitude of Aides to help them in thier quest to be the galaxies no1 inept pilot.

That goes for anything that improves your targeting also, so don't think you people using joystick curves and the like have slipped under the net either. Learn to fly without assists.

Scrubs.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

If you're using plugins, you are giving yourself a significant edge on those who are not.

In most other games, this usually results in accounts being banned and players IP's being permanantly blocked from the servers.

I think it's about time people learned to play the game instead of relying on a multitude of Aides to help them in thier quest to be the galaxies no1 inept pilot.

That goes for anything that improves your targeting also, so don't think you people using joystick curves and the like have slipped under the net either. Learn to fly without assists.

Scrubs.

Sort of agree as long as we throw in 'relative mouse' assist scrubs too.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

Sort of agree as long as we throw in 'relative mouse' assist scrubs too.

All of it. If you need third party apps to aide you, go back to the training missions.

Stuff was clearly missed.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You'd have to dump the current economic mechanics though and I suspect, but could be wrong, that some other Powers mightn't be happy with that. Personally I'd bin the lot & move over to a single upkeep based trigger and per system turmoil with Open Only.

I think also that any new PP will have to be much simpler, as a lot of PP angst comes from its complexity. The BGS is as complex as any system needs to be IMO at least. In that way it would be impossible to misuse zombie powers, 5C from within etc as whatever action 5C do from inside only improves that power. To hurt they would have to oppose from outside.

 

[StealthPasta]

Any of these 3 remedies require FDev to take action. By ignoring the issue they are complicit and effectively consigning Powerplay as a defunct element of the game. We are defined by the things we don’t do, as well as the things we do.

So FDev, please put us out of our misery. Are you going to do something about this? If not, then at least come clean so that we can all get on with the rest of our lives.

Any FDev reps out there who can provide some comment?

Does FDev monitor these forums at all? Could you provide a response?

 

[Villeruff]

Does FDev monitor these forums at all? Could you provide a response?

According to various streams over the years, they do, and their response was roughly 'PowerPlay is low on the priority list, since it's played by a "subset of a subset".' They think backwards, that PP isn't worth fixing because not many people play it, even though few people play it because it a pain in the backside. Same with multicrew, when it came out incomplete and broken, Sandro said they wanted to wait and see how popular it was before they invested more dev time. Basically, if we want stuff fleshed out or fixed, we have to get lots of people playing stuff that isn't fun.

They did offer a bandaid fix, the consolidation votes. It helped a little.

It's fun how it's all come full circle. Ex-Winters players led by someone named something like Parsimonious got miffed over the infamous cycle 52 (54? It's been a while) decided to destroy PowerPlay, starting with ALD, to prove to Fdev that it needed fixing. I bet their plan is going to work any day now.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Does FDev monitor these forums at all? Could you provide a response?

Unless its something PR worthy the devs no longer respond- I imagine all dev attention is currently on the DW / DG hysterical squealing. FDs last summary of the Flash Topic was 'thanks for the feedback, we have all we need', so I imagine those 200 printed pages are now used to prop up a tea boys monitor at FD towers sadly. I still live in hope, but its a hard road when the only dev who actively talked and acted on PP has gone to another project.

 

[Nadreck]

Disclaimer: I've been loosely involved in Powerplay for some time, but only as a "module shopper" (got 7, 4 to go).

PP Open-Only has been talked to death. I understand the frustrations of those who want it, but one legitimate argument against it is that some people can't reliably play in Open due to poor Internet connections and suchlike. Furthermore, it won't solve the problem, as it's just too easy to ensure that you won't get instanced with anyone else even in Open.

As I recall, Frontier were considering a rule where PP merits lose a chunk of their value (permanently) if taken out of Open. That seems to be a very good idea, ensuring that solo/PG players can still make a contribution, while also ensuring that Open is the preferred mode. I do not understand why this has not been implemented yet.

Of course it wouldn't actually solve the problem, due to the aforementioned availability of "Solo Open" mode.

A better solution would be to simply improve the ability of a Power's "legitimate" supporters to see, and if necessary block, unwanted expansions and so forth. For instance:

Rather than one prep/consolidation vote per player, use something similar to the "four buckets" system for merits. Each week you get two voting points per rank you have (none for rank 1 though, as this requires zero effort to attain). The previous week's total gets reduced by 1 point and shunted into a bucket, each bucket gets reduced by 1 point per week and discarded after 4 weeks. The maximum number of votes you can have is 10+9+8+7=34, for being at rank 5 for 4+ weeks.

And then get rid of voting anonymity and make it possible for high-ranking members to search how a member voted. In real-life poilitics, you generally know what view a politician has taken on a particular topic.

And finally, once you've unmasked a 5C voter: some sort of collective impeachment process. Obviously this would require some care to implement, or the "bad guys" could impeach the "good guys"!

 

[Rubbernuke]

Disclaimer: I've been loosely involved in Powerplay for some time, but only as a "module shopper" (got 7, 4 to go).

PP Open-Only has been talked to death. I understand the frustrations of those who want it, but one legitimate argument against it is that some people can't reliably play in Open due to poor Internet connections and suchlike. Furthermore, it won't solve the problem, as it's just too easy to ensure that you won't get instanced with anyone else even in Open.

As I recall, Frontier were considering a rule where PP merits lose a chunk of their value (permanently) if taken out of Open. That seems to be a very good idea, ensuring that solo/PG players can still make a contribution, while also ensuring that Open is the preferred mode. I do not understand why this has not been implemented yet.

Of course it wouldn't actually solve the problem, due to the aforementioned availability of "Solo Open" mode.

A better solution would be to simply improve the ability of a Power's "legitimate" supporters to see, and if necessary block, unwanted expansions and so forth. For instance:

Rather than one prep/consolidation vote per player, use something similar to the "four buckets" system for merits. Each week you get two voting points per rank you have (none for rank 1 though, as this requires zero effort to attain). The previous week's total gets reduced by 1 point and shunted into a bucket, each bucket gets reduced by 1 point per week and discarded after 4 weeks. The maximum number of votes you can have is 10+9+8+7=34, for being at rank 5 for 4+ weeks.

And then get rid of voting anonymity and make it possible for high-ranking members to search how a member voted. In real-life poilitics, you generally know what view a politician has taken on a particular topic.

And finally, once you've unmasked a 5C voter: some sort of collective impeachment process. Obviously this would require some care to implement, or the "bad guys" could impeach the "good guys"!

Sorry to be rude, but your ideas are like untangling a bowl of pasta by tipping more pasta on top.

Since a lot of players can and have alts, it makes no difference if we know who they are. The only useful ability is to kill these people and defend against it physically, or design it out totally and get rid of votes.

 

[Jockey79]

PP Open-Only has been talked to death. I understand the frustrations of those who want it, but one legitimate argument against it is that some people can't reliably play in Open due to poor Internet connections and suchlike. Furthermore, it won't solve the problem, as it's just too easy to ensure that you won't get instanced with anyone else even in Open.

Don't forget the other platforms. OP seems to have missed that the people doing 5C could have been on XB1 or PS4, hence not seeing them on PC.
It's all too convenient for people to stamp their feet and point the finger at Solo/PG. But Elite is multiplatform and was built so everyone can join in.
Power Play is no exception, a person without the console subscription service is just as entitled to PP as someone on PC is, but they are locked to Solo Mode.
But even if it was Open Only, you'd still have XB1 Open, PS4 Open and PC Open - so some folks would still go unopposed if they play at the right time on the right platform.

Mind you, OP also missed how Frontier has always supported having internal sabotage of a power. As they like the option for folks to be sneaky.
Otherwise, we wouldn't have the option to do it in the first place. But in the design stage, it seemed cool having "espionage".

That bit them on the backside didn't it

 

[GJ51]

This will be addressed as soon as the CQC update is finished

 

[Rubbernuke]

Don't forget the other platforms. OP seems to have missed that the people doing 5C could have been on XB1 or PS4, hence not seeing them on PC.

And incredibly, all powers have people playing properly on all formats too. Fancy that!

It's all too convenient for people to stamp their feet and point the finger at Solo/PG. But Elite is multiplatform and was built so everyone can join in.

That it was. And now we know it was a total faliure and a bad design choice after years of experience.

Power Play is no exception, a person without the console subscription service is just as entitled to PP as someone on PC is, but they are locked to Solo Mode.

Possibly, but then most things on consoles require a sub of some sort.

But even if it was Open Only, you'd still have XB1 Open, PS4 Open and PC Open - so some folks would still go unopposed if they play at the right time on the right platform.

And there is nothing wrong with that, because astonishingly people play on different formats in different time zones too. Also, it does not matter, because Powerplay has a strict time schedule anyway. It will end on Thurs morning, so wheverever you live it has to get done before 7 GMT.

Mind you, OP also missed how Frontier has always supported having internal sabotage of a power. As they like the option for folks to be sneaky.
Otherwise, we wouldn't have the option to do it in the first place. But in the design stage, it seemed cool having "espionage".

Again, this was pointed out by players at about Cycle 5 5C would be devestating. Michael Brookes reponded to that with the 'its sort of intended' but quickly went silent, probably when he realised the fundamental error he made. Flash forward a few years and we have powers 'winning' by sock -puppeting other powers, and voting from the inside. In the zombie state of the game its easier to screw up from the inside than it is to grind on the outside. If FD wanted some sort of spy mechanic, I think nearly any other approach would be better than the frankly idiotic one we have now.

That bit them on the backside didn't it

Not really, its poor design from a neglected feature being exploited behind modes.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Honestly I'm reading the same old stupidity about this, actually there is some ways (actually: many ways) to make all the 5C process basically useless, without touching "too much" the actual Powerplay decentralized philosophy.

I wrote this thread in the past, and I'm quite coinfident it could be a solution to make 5C at least largely depowered than it is right now.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...gently-to-counter-5C-action?highlight=voronwe

And I think this should be our approach about this all thing, with real proposals and not turning at each other's throat for something (open only) that basically it's never gonna happen because it's too easy for too many people to simply go in "safe-mode" when they need money, mats or anything else so the Open Only thing (even if I would love that, as I showed in some of my many threads about that) is never gonna happen.

But this is something different: we want Powerplay to be fixed, and the first thing we need are fixed rules, fair rules, and most importantly some game developer interested in actual game mechanics and not only in screenshots showing up the same old ships aligned in fancy ways because it's the easiest way to hide under the mat the sorry state of Elite Dangerous gameplay after Beyond, after a WHOLE YEAR that should have been dedicated on gameplay and fixing things.

So guys let's find out rules, proposals, something that we can really agree on, outside the many groups' interests, let's just find out a way to FIX 5C and let's ask that to FDev, sadly to be said we know Powerplay better than they do because whoever thought about these rules had clearly no idea of the consequences, did not consider people playing dirty and that's a great problem.

I will copy again the milestones of my old thread:

1- No more overhead, upkeeps become higher, systems go "turmoil" singularly if they go negative
2- Closer Control Systems gain priority on overlapping exploited systems
3- Undermining/Fortifying as a competitive process (+100% fort = fortified, +100% undermine = undermined, regular canceled)
4- Yay/Nay votes on single preps, votes weighted 5 to rating 5, 2 to rating 4, 1 to rating 3
5- Power Modules available to tech brokers too

I think we could all agree on that.

 

[zimms]

This will be addressed as soon as the CQC update is finished

Will this be before or after the Icarus Cup?

 

[Jockey79]

And incredibly, all powers have people playing properly on all formats too. Fancy that!

Doesn't mean it's an even fight, or one team can put up a suitable defence.
But that's the beauty of Cross-platform, it doesn't matter. Everyone can chip in.

That it was. And now we know it was a total faliure and a bad design choice after years of experience.

CQC was a total failure, PP in comparison is "meh". It has some toys people can collect, so it has a use.

Possibly, but then most things on consoles require a sub of some sort.

And one of the bonuses for the console players is how you can still be a part of all the content without that sub.
To try and pull that from them because a few PvP'ers are salty is bang out of order.

And there is nothing wrong with that, because astonishingly people play on different formats in different time zones too. Also, it does not matter, because Powerplay has a strict time schedule anyway. It will end on Thurs morning, so wheverever you live it has to get done before 7 GMT.

You are aware this is a point for keeping PP on all modes right?
It's the very reason PvP cannot dominate PP.

Again, this was pointed out by players at about Cycle 5 5C would be devestating. Michael Brookes reponded to that with the 'its sort of intended' but quickly went silent, probably when he realised the fundamental error he made. Flash forward a few years and we have powers 'winning' by sock -puppeting other powers, and voting from the inside. In the zombie state of the game its easier to screw up from the inside than it is to grind on the outside. If FD wanted some sort of spy mechanic, I think nearly any other approach would be better than the frankly idiotic one we have now.

I recall Frontier getting told about the drawbacks and dangers when they were designing PP.
It has kind of set the standard for them, as they listened just as much with CQC, Engineers and with C&P.
Though at least they tried to rectify Engineers and C&P. PP and CQC are still in limbo.

Some ideas work, some don't - the pitfalls of game development I suppose.

Not really, its poor design from a neglected feature being exploited behind modes.

Not a poor design as such, just not one that works for PvP within our MMO set up.

I actually laughed when Frontier said PP was for PvP'ers, to give them a reason to PvP.
As it was clear from the Kickstarter, Alpha and Beta information that ED couldn't be PvP focused in any way, not with so many ways to avoid PvP legitimately or otherwise.
Heck, they released the game with UPnP turned off, so 90% of the player base couldn't even see each other, let along shoot at anyone.
The players had to tell them to patch the game to default that option to "on" so we didn't have to do it in the config file, so all the P2P clients could have a chance of seeing each other.
And these were the same people making a feature for PvP'ers, in this current P2P multiplayer environment.... yup, that was some funny stuff right there.

Slap the feature into an open only server / client system and it would work great.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Doesn't mean it's an even fight, or one team can put up a suitable defence.
But that's the beauty of Cross-platform, it doesn't matter. Everyone can chip in.

Going on the numbers I know from discords they are consistent across platforms.

CQC was a total failure, PP in comparison is "meh". It has some toys people can collect, so it has a use.

Which smacks of someone who does not actually play the mode to its fullest, or even care. Hopefully if these changes go through you can be happy collecting from tech traders in peace.

And one of the bonuses for the console players is how you can still be a part of all the content without that sub.
To try and pull that from them because a few PvP'ers are salty is bang out of order.

Unless FD redesign PP from scratch its the only mooted update feature that would shake PP out of its A to B nature. All my friends own consoles and every one has a sub. To them its part of owning a console.

You are aware this is a point for keeping PP on all modes right?
It's the very reason PvP cannot dominate PP.

Then you don't know tactics then. If I need to convoy prep somewhere in a race with another power at 6:45, what happens if one power is actively destroying the others shipments? Are they going to win do you think?

I recall Frontier getting told about the drawbacks and dangers when they were designing PP.
It has kind of set the standard for them, as they listened just as much with CQC, Engineers and with C&P.
Though at least they tried to rectify Engineers and C&P. PP and CQC are still in limbo.

Some ideas work, some don't - the pitfalls of game development I suppose.

Does not excuse anything. FD released a part functioning feature as if it was whole. They were told about its shortfalls and dropped it like a hot potato rather than spend time updating it with the rest of the game.

Not a poor design as such, just not one that works for PvP within our MMO set up.

You miss the point. Its a horrific design that allows 5C to bypass doing anything difficult other than tick a box to win, and makes fighting back difficult to impossible. Open (along with the other changes) helps mitigate that, and as a bonus opens up more unpredictable situations beyond Undock > jump x times > dock > repeat.

I actually laughed when Frontier said PP was for PvP'ers, to give them a reason to PvP.
As it was clear from the Kickstarter, Alpha and Beta information that ED couldn't be PvP focused in any way, not with so many ways to avoid PvP legitimately or otherwise.
Heck, they released the game with UPnP turned off, so 90% of the player base couldn't even see each other, let along shoot at anyone.
The players had to tell them to patch the game to default that option to "on" so we didn't have to do it in the config file, so all the P2P clients could have a chance of seeing each other.
And these were the same people making a feature for PvP'ers, in this current P2P multiplayer environment.... yup, that was some funny stuff right there.

Slap the feature into an open only server / client system and it would work great.

Why not try it and see? Not much to lose. If anything it will highlight the Powers that don't actually do things legitimately.

 

[Jockey79]

Going on the numbers ...

I'll stop you there. You have no numbers.

repeat after me;

Discord is not proof. Not everyone who plays uses voice chat software

Say it until you understand it.

Frontier has the only numbers and they don't release them to us.
So save your gaming metrics that mean nothing.

Which smacks of someone who does not actually play the mode to its fullest, or even care. Hopefully if these changes go through you can be happy collecting from tech traders in peace.

I play more than enough PP to know it's shortcomings and how it fails as a PvP feature.
But I love how you assume you know more than me or that I don't play it.
Instead of actually understanding what I've written.

All my friends own consoles and every one has a sub. To them its part of owning a console.

Good for them, but more people own consoles than your social group and not everyone can afford a constant sub for online play.

Then you don't know tactics then. If I need to convoy prep somewhere in a race with another power at 6:45, what happens if one power is actively destroying the others shipments? Are they going to win do you think?

/sigh

Again with accusations instead of understanding the point.
The point you actually made to start with.

"what happens if one power is actively destroying the others shipments?" = They mode switch currently. In the event of Open Only, they shove you block and carry on.

And as people this into the game, doing 5C and organising etc, chances are they understand how P2P works, how NAT works, how the matchmaker works.
If these people killing PP with 5C or Solo/PG are so determined and ruthless as this forum would have us believe.
I'd imagine they already have whitelists in their routers just in case.

PvP = neutered.

Does not excuse anything. FD released a part functioning feature as if it was whole. They were told about its shortfalls and dropped it like a hot potato rather than spend time updating it with the rest of the game.

I wasn't excusing them of anything, in fact, I actually said they were told about the drawbacks.
They thought they knew better, the feature is still being used, however. So it isn't a total failure, it just didn't go as well as they expected.

Again, you seem more interested in fighting me, than reading what I'm typing.

You miss the point. Its a horrific design that allows 5C to bypass doing anything difficult other than tick a box to win, and makes fighting back difficult to impossible. Open (along with the other changes) helps mitigate that, and as a bonus opens up more unpredictable situations beyond Undock > jump x times > dock > repeat.

Open Only doesn't mitigate anything, as explained above and in countless other threads you've been in.
Closing your eyes to that doesn't make it go away.

Yes, 5C needs to be dealt with but locking content does not do that.
As explained.

Why not try it and see? Not much to lose. If anything it will highlight the Powers that don't actually do things legitimately.

Again, ignored what was written.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I'll stop you there. You have no numbers.

repeat after me;

Discord is not proof. Not everyone who plays uses voice chat software

Say it until you understand it.

Frontier has the only numbers and they don't release them to us.
So save your gaming metrics that mean nothing.

We both argue from what we both know and from our experiences and points of view. What I say is anecdotal, but its from what I know.

I play more than enough PP to know it's shortcomings and how it fails as a PvP feature.
But I love how you assume you know more than me or that I don't play it.
Instead of actually understanding what I've written.

This comes down to mixing what is possible and what is currently in game. Currently yes, direct conflict is pointless because you have modes and a very generous blocking feature. We have people simply camping in PG groups farming, and abusing multibox voting. From my own experiences having it Open only would add a great deal to the feature, as well as add an extra layer on 5C (along with the other announced features).

My own PP CV: I have access to about 30 Discords across the PP divide, Was one of the main leaders for Utopia for 2.5 years, ran its Reddit for the same amount of time. I was part of the Powerplay Council that was in direct contact with the devs, and now I'm with the Kumo as an old hand. I've written lore for Utopia and the Kumo, I was playing PP from day 2 continuosly, and know it inside out. I've been part of / known about many of the attacks, seen 5C grow and wreck the game, and I know from chatting with loads of people what made them leave PP. So what I talk about comes from that bank of experience.

Good for them, but more people own consoles than your social group and not everyone can afford a constant sub for online play.

Well a lot of people seem to be able to, last count 36 million PS4 owners could.

/sigh

Again with accusations instead of understanding the point.
The point you actually made to start with.

"what happens if one power is actively destroying the others shipments?" = They mode switch currently. In the event of Open Only, they shove you block and carry on.

And as people this into the game, doing 5C and organising etc, chances are they understand how P2P works, how NAT works, how the matchmaker works.
If these people killing PP with 5C or Solo/PG are so determined and ruthless as this forum would have us believe.
I'd imagine they already have whitelists in their routers just in case.

PvP = neutered.

And this is where a bit of imagination and spine come in from FD. I won't pretend it will be perfect because it won't. The block feature would need an overhaul but the rest we would simply have to see what happens. It certainly would be odd never ever seeing a certain hairy power ever pop up, and if that was the case I'm sure FD would love to know about it because they do take an interest in those matters.

I wasn't excusing them of anything, in fact, I actually said they were told about the drawbacks.
They thought they knew better, the feature is still being used, however. So it isn't a total failure, it just didn't go as well as they expected.

FD released a half finished feature that was conceptually a Swiss cheese of flaws. They outright lied about it, such as the non inclusion of Collapse, they stopped posting PP data (presumably through boredom or they forgot how to do it), stopped fixing feature breaking bugs (map) and left redundant parts of it (nominations) flapping about like a bloodied vestigial organ.

Again, you seem more interested in fighting me, than reading what I'm typing.

Its called debate, and I'm countering your aguments.

Open Only doesn't mitigate anything, as explained above and in countless other threads you've been in.
Closing your eyes to that doesn't make it go away.

Just as you think I don't read your posts, I don't think you read mine; Open only is part of the answer. On its own it will not 'cure' anything- but, allied to the changes it acts as a filter as well as opening the feature up to more direct interactions that are unique to ED. It won't be perfect, but unless FD put the work in its all we have.

Yes, 5C needs to be dealt with but locking content does not do that.
As explained.

Like I said before, Open only brings a two sided benefit to PP that is unique to ED. It does have drawbacks that can be partly mitigated, but its the only roll of the dice that substantially changes PP and makes it stand apart from a (partially working) new and shiny BGS.

 

[Arkadi]

Please, go to modes discussion, hotel california or somewhere...

this horse is... jelly. That poor poor dead horse.