97% of Viewers (Players?) Want Ship Interiors!
- Thread starter Obsidian Ant
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The problem with the word “gameplay” is that people decide whatever they like is “gameplay.” If we look at another space sim that often comes up in these discussions, posting screenshots of their avatar in their ship counts as “gameplay.”
Let’s go with a definition that is stronger: making interesting decisions (which I believe is due to Sid Meier).
The interior of your own ship is the interior of your avatar in space, and right now, players have 100% control over everything within their ship from the pilot seat. Under current mechanics, that leaves no room for interesting decisions within the ship. Without new mechanics, your interior is 100% cosmetic. Obviously, a lot of effort is put into making pretty sights in Elite, but having decisions matters as well.
(Why doesn’t looking at cosmetics count as “interesting”? Doing so has no effect on your character state. Whether you do it or not has no effect. By contrast, the base building within a NMS freighter uses resources, and can create objects you can interact with that have in-game effects.)
In order for an decision to be made inside your ship, you need something outside of your control that can’t be dealt with from the pilot seat. This mainly involves boarding actions, and repairs - which is already done via automated systems. Almost anything else involves stripping away control from the pilot’s seat, which is going to be controversial. If an expansion takes away my ability to control my ship, I will simply not buy it - which is not what marketing wants to hear.
Outside your ship are things that you don’t control. That’s why Odyssey opens up decision-based gameplay.
This leads to one of the red herrings that often comes up: investigating wrecks in space. Those wrecks would be part of EVA, and are just fixed levels. As long as they are not spinning, they are fixed in the frame of reference, and so do not pose the implementation challenge ship interiors have for the physics engine - since they are translating and spinning in 3-D space. If zero-G movement is fixed, it is easy to have wreck exploration without having player ship interiors.
Let’s go with a definition that is stronger: making interesting decisions (which I believe is due to Sid Meier).
The interior of your own ship is the interior of your avatar in space, and right now, players have 100% control over everything within their ship from the pilot seat. Under current mechanics, that leaves no room for interesting decisions within the ship. Without new mechanics, your interior is 100% cosmetic. Obviously, a lot of effort is put into making pretty sights in Elite, but having decisions matters as well.
(Why doesn’t looking at cosmetics count as “interesting”? Doing so has no effect on your character state. Whether you do it or not has no effect. By contrast, the base building within a NMS freighter uses resources, and can create objects you can interact with that have in-game effects.)
In order for an decision to be made inside your ship, you need something outside of your control that can’t be dealt with from the pilot seat. This mainly involves boarding actions, and repairs - which is already done via automated systems. Almost anything else involves stripping away control from the pilot’s seat, which is going to be controversial. If an expansion takes away my ability to control my ship, I will simply not buy it - which is not what marketing wants to hear.
Outside your ship are things that you don’t control. That’s why Odyssey opens up decision-based gameplay.
This leads to one of the red herrings that often comes up: investigating wrecks in space. Those wrecks would be part of EVA, and are just fixed levels. As long as they are not spinning, they are fixed in the frame of reference, and so do not pose the implementation challenge ship interiors have for the physics engine - since they are translating and spinning in 3-D space. If zero-G movement is fixed, it is easy to have wreck exploration without having player ship interiors.
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Let me guess what made some persons soooo perturbed:
They hate the idea
They hate the idea that the idea might be liked by other people
They really hate someone more popular than they are suggested it....and got a positive response.
They hate the idea
They hate the idea that the idea might be liked by other people
They really hate someone more popular than they are suggested it....and got a positive response.
Isn't asking for a ban a bannable offense?
Polls are not allowed here for a reason......
"Feel free to construct your own totally holistic definition of the term gameplay."
The definition you linked: "Gameplay is the specific way in which players interact with a game". Do you seriously believe that for some of us, gameplay can't include interacting with our ships by going to various rooms within them? Admittedly it's not as complex as going into battle, but for some of us this is gameplay.This might ground you a little bit:
Gameplay - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
I don't always agree with OA and certianly try to make my own mind up rather than following what ANY content creator says. I also disagree with the premise that because of his poll it shows what 97% of ED gamers want (even tho in this instance I would be one of them)
However all that aside.... I think the chances of anyone banning OA for linking to his video, of which has no offensive language and all it is guilty of is being s bit clickbaity and a little assuming of it's own importance for being able to gather the mood of the whole playerbase based on a handful of followers is slim.
ESP when FD themselves felt he is important enough of an ambassador to invite to FD towers and show him around.
For years many unimaginative people huffed and puffed there was nothing to do with on foot gameplay outside our ships.
If such people can't possibly imagine what possible gameplay could ever happen on entire planets, then it's pretty obvious those people are also unable to imagine what possible gameplay could happen inside spaceships, both our own and NPC ships.
As such, as pretty much every thread about this subject, debating with such people is a complete waste of time and breath.
Ship interiors have always been on the plan just like Odyssey, reiterated over time by FD, that's al lthat really matters.
If such people can't possibly imagine what possible gameplay could ever happen on entire planets, then it's pretty obvious those people are also unable to imagine what possible gameplay could happen inside spaceships, both our own and NPC ships.
As such, as pretty much every thread about this subject, debating with such people is a complete waste of time and breath.
Ship interiors have always been on the plan just like Odyssey, reiterated over time by FD, that's al lthat really matters.
But that is reducing the game experience to 'gameplay', then defining gameplay is such a way that it limits the extent to which ship interiors would qualify, and then making an exception for one very obvious user case (wrecks). That is quite some effort to 'disqualify' a much more simple point of view: people play ED for the experience of being a Han Solo or Picard or whatever in the 34th Century. A big part of that fantasy is flying spaceships, sure. A not inconsiderable part takes place in spaceships, but does not involve you sitting in the pilot seat. And then a third part is the outside-the-spaceship bit. Whether you like Star Wars, Star Trek, Firefly or The Expanse: all 'spaceship oriented franchises' to a very large extend involve not flying spaceships.
So here is what I think is attractive about the idea of ship interiors: it enhances the feeling of being that space cowboy.
Thats it. That is why people want it in ED, why people like it already in other game and why FD discussed it right from the start. If you personally are not intersted, that is fine. But we looooong past the point where we should try to explain why ship interiors are 'problematic'. It is like arguing with people to stop putting pineapple on their pizza: they know what they want, all you can do is disagree and not put pineapple on your own. And no amount of reasoning or logic or arguments will convince people to stop liking something they know they like.
Deleted member 182079
D
While I wouldn't necessarily be against ship interiors, I personally do not believe that they will add engaging gameplay to Elite, because
1) any examples given do not strike me as particularly enjoyable - and what might seem that way in people's imagination may not be feasible in reality (there's a funny Youtube clip around which compares the original Elite trailer with gameplay as-it-is, quite a marked difference but that's CGI trailers for you)
2) any gameplay will be limited to very restrictive maps (if you exclude the bigger ships) which further limits the options - in order to have internal consistency all ships should have fleshed out interiors but what potential interior gameplay would you add to a Sidewinder, an Eagle, or an iCourier?
3) adding additional gameplay loops will likely end up feel more like unnecessary busywork - to some extent, but not entirely, look at the FSS gameplay loop - aka "why should I walk to X and hold button Y to do the same thing that the repair module already does without any micro-managing?"
4) Repetition - how many times will you perform the same task until it gets boring or even tedious (again, exhibit A = the FSS)
5) Assuming that Frontier's dev resources are limited and compete with other features, and considering the various existing issues that need urgent attention, ship interiors seem a low priority "nice to have" instead of a showstopper feature, and FDev seems to agree with this assessment given where we are at the moment.
Right now I can't see ship interiors being delivered as anything but a free update to Odyssey - why? Because there'd not be enough meat on the bone gameplay wise if it's just The Sims in space in order to justify getting my credit card out, and it would be rather cynical move if it was solely for the introduction of another platform for ARX funded cosmetics.
I see people post about ship piracy incl. boarding hostile ships, presumably some form of corridor shooting, repairing your ship - I would ask those people to think in more practical terms how that would actually play out in a live game, and I have my reservations whether any of these will be enjoyable. Doesn't Star Citizen have some of these mechanics already in place? Are they fun to play in SC?
1) any examples given do not strike me as particularly enjoyable - and what might seem that way in people's imagination may not be feasible in reality (there's a funny Youtube clip around which compares the original Elite trailer with gameplay as-it-is, quite a marked difference but that's CGI trailers for you)
2) any gameplay will be limited to very restrictive maps (if you exclude the bigger ships) which further limits the options - in order to have internal consistency all ships should have fleshed out interiors but what potential interior gameplay would you add to a Sidewinder, an Eagle, or an iCourier?
3) adding additional gameplay loops will likely end up feel more like unnecessary busywork - to some extent, but not entirely, look at the FSS gameplay loop - aka "why should I walk to X and hold button Y to do the same thing that the repair module already does without any micro-managing?"
4) Repetition - how many times will you perform the same task until it gets boring or even tedious (again, exhibit A = the FSS)
5) Assuming that Frontier's dev resources are limited and compete with other features, and considering the various existing issues that need urgent attention, ship interiors seem a low priority "nice to have" instead of a showstopper feature, and FDev seems to agree with this assessment given where we are at the moment.
Right now I can't see ship interiors being delivered as anything but a free update to Odyssey - why? Because there'd not be enough meat on the bone gameplay wise if it's just The Sims in space in order to justify getting my credit card out, and it would be rather cynical move if it was solely for the introduction of another platform for ARX funded cosmetics.
I see people post about ship piracy incl. boarding hostile ships, presumably some form of corridor shooting, repairing your ship - I would ask those people to think in more practical terms how that would actually play out in a live game, and I have my reservations whether any of these will be enjoyable. Doesn't Star Citizen have some of these mechanics already in place? Are they fun to play in SC?
That is the weird thing. You don't even need to be very imaginative to think of the potential fun to be had with spacelegs or ship interiors because it has been done already. Plenty of games involve 'walking around and doing stuff'. Plenty of games have the interior of space ships.
Every. single. sci-fi. franchise. has. both.
Imagine people watching Star Wars, only to yell at Harrison Ford every time he attempts to get up from his pilot seat. "Sit down Han! There is no fun outside that chair! Where are you going?!"
When someone is confused what the fun would be, all you can do is vaguely point in the general direction of the entire genre in all media formats. If at that point someone is still confused then they simply like other stuff. Which is cool, but not very debate worthy. Its the reverse from debating whether it would be cool to actual fly the Normandy in Mass Effect.
"Huh. Flying a spaceship. I dont know, I just dont see the gameplay potential. You probably would fly it once or twice, and then just use quick travel."
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Just a content creator who, amongst others, has been leveraged for PR purposes. Most certainly not an ambassador - that word suggests someone who is a representative for a group which he is most certainly not.
It’s a definition that was proposed by a well-respected game designer.
If you want to roleplay, fine. The problem is that ship interiors are a complex implementation problem. Losing 1-2 years external content creation - an entirely plausible estimate - to give a cosmetic experience is not going to make players like me happy.
The most comment complaint about Elite is that it is a mile wide, and an inch deep. Losing 1-2 years of content is not going to help that.
THANK YOU, ObiW! You appear to not be in favor of ship interiors, at least at the moment, but you carefully made sure to let us know that these are your OPINIONS. While you and I might be on opposite sides of the fence at the moment, I respect your post! Honestly, some of your reservations ring true to me as well, which is why, although I would like ship interiors, I feel that we would need more information in terms of what is on the table for development and cost, in order to better grasp the feasibility of the project.
Deleted member 182079
D
I'd be the last one to say "I don't want them" but I see any feature that people request through the prism of development resources - and I just don't see interiors as very high on a priority list at this point in time (my personal preference is proper atmospheres incl. ELWs but I'm not convinced we'll ever get those, happy to be proven wrong though - and even there you could argue "what's in it in terms of gameplay, beyond of what we already have but just different background environments").
I imagine most others who come across as "against it" probably share this sentiment but simply don't express it clearly enough - because if FDev simply added it I don't think anyone would complain (which is why I consider the OP's poll results as meaningless).
This is obviously based on Interiors being a free update - if it was paid for DLC, Frontier would have to drive a much harder bargain.
Ok, I'm not sure if this information that you are imparting about development time is base on actual knowledge, but at least it's a starting point with regards to having a better discussion about this topic. If your estimate is correct, there may indeed be better priorities out there at the moment.
Whatever mate.
Here ya go: yes, I and everyone else just want a cosmetic thing with no gameplay, because we like shallow games. And we want FD to spend years on these shallow features. Frankly, we are really just poopypants in general. Silly us. I have now learned from my mistakes and will from this day in believe whatever you believe. Clearly your preferences are superior. Thank you for lifting me up from the decrepit depths where my mind used to linger.
There is zero estimate to make because it 100% depends on what such a dlc will contain. FD could make EDO in a Sunday afternoon by replacing the SRV with a human model and calling it a day. They can spend ten more years to make all stations sprawling PG. He simply said "two years for just cosmetic" to make it sound unappealing.
To be honest, Ian, I gave him a like because he at least dropped a timeline down with which we could begin to have a serious discussion about this issue. He also did not deny that for some of us, that cosmetic thing is indeed gameplay. Considering some of the previous posters, this chap is positively civil. I still agree with you though. For some of us, this would clearly constitute gameplay. The big question is: At what cost?
Its not an estimate it's a wild guess - but regardless of that it serves a very important point that you also elude to.
Does the delivery of ship interiors provide players with the best bang for frontiers development buck? Until we see what quality of life improvements Odyssey brings to the final game, we won't be able to answer that - but even if they fix lots of bugs and make important QOL improvements, I still think there will be higher priorities.
It's certainly a valid point of view to say you think there are higher priorities than ship interiors.
But to be fair, for each and every update to Elite there have been "players like X" who think the latest update was a complete waste of time. So there's always gonna be a vocal group of complainers no matter which direction FD chooses to take next.
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