A Guide to Minor Factions and the Background Sim

[ShimEnki]

I'm fairly sure that someone quoted a FD support person saying that some of the states used RNG to determine whether they happened. However, it did appear at the time that the support person didn't really know how the BGS
worked.

..and isn't that like an internal medical specialist not really knowing how the kidney works?

They didn't know probably due to the goofie randomness of it all.

Missions... ++, what the hell does this actually mean? How much profit would you have to sell to a faction to equal this ++ in missions? NO ONE KNOWS ----because its RNG based somehow or we'd not be having all these
basic things so hidden / unknowable

But that's ok, its only the BGS. We have spandex coming afterall so...we're good.

 

[_trent_]

I'm fairly sure that someone quoted a FD support person saying that some of the states used RNG to determine whether they happened. However, it did appear at the time that the support person didn't really know how the BGS worked.

Spoiler

 

[goemon]

If flight mechanics etc had RNG vomiting all over it..we'd not be here. So why not add more and enhance the game with clear comm and player feedback responses than mere lazy RNG

there is major difference between RNG and blackbox.

to give to exampels from the f(l)ight mechanics:
a) RNG: if you land a shot on a hull, you have a chance of hull breach damage. RNG whether the shot actually leads to a hull breach or not.
b) blackbox: till 2.2. the hull hardness of ships (fixed per type) and the armour penetration value of weapons was unknown. nevertheless the damage dealt by a weapon was deterministic depending on both factors (and other like distance etc.). it was even in parts "reverse engineered" by players testing actual damage of pulse laser over its several sizes on different ships.

the BGS is the latter. as said, you can dislike the blackbox, like i do to some extend, but you better make your peace with it if you intend to play it, as FDEV have stated repeatedly that they want it to stay a black box. or, more blunt: it is a background simulation, not a foreground game table.

 

[goemon]

I'm fairly sure that someone quoted a FD support person saying that some of the states used RNG to determine whether they happened. However, it did appear at the time that the support person didn't really know how the BGS worked.

which is why i quoted MB on the last page: "Once the pool is large enough it will queue the state with a countdown after which the event will trigger, assuming it has the largest pool." - MB might be wrong, ofc...

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

..and isn't that like an internal medical specialist not really knowing how the kidney works?

They didn't know probably due to the goofie randomness of it all.

Support aren't experts at every aspect of the game. If it was a Dev, such as Dominic, saying this I'd be concerned.

 

[ShimEnki]

Once the pool is large enough ..

Yep, "large enough".

No one knows what large means---I bet theres a spinning disc that doesn't even know until it stops and then no one knows what amount it rested on.

Many CMDRS spend many hours and have developed a strong connection to their faction and knowing where their faction is with respect to important (if not all) state buckets would enhance
gameplay not drain it.
Again, there's far more than enough unpredictability from the actions of other players that having all these basic important datum hidden is unnecessary to create artificial mystery and at best, cheapens the bgs experience imho

 

[Starwolfe]

So you dislike the black box, not the RNG.

You dislike not knowing what the numbers are, not how the numbers got there.

We already know how the numbers get there, but we don't know the number that is given automatically to fill the bucket, nor the variables of values or how big it is.

That doesn't make it an RNG thing. It makes it a black box. We just don't know what's inside it, specifically.

 

[ShimEnki]

So you dislike the black box, not the RNG.

You dislike not knowing what the numbers are, not how the numbers got there.

We already know how the numbers get there, but we don't know the number that is given automatically to fill the bucket, nor the variables of values or how big it is.

That doesn't make it an RNG thing. It makes it a black box. We just don't know what's inside it, specifically.

Well the RNG dictates when a faction incurs an unwanted state.

You might have delivered meds and food everyday to prevent those unwanted states from developing but now we know its no avail. Gone is this pos aspect of engaged proactive gameplay.

So now that the RNG dictates when a system goes into a pending unwanted state regardless of the actions you might have offered the system, we don't know how large this "bucket" is to be able to empty it because that size is RNG generated.

Basically, RNG rules and the player is a game annoyance and interfering entity. Ever wonder why players generate so much rage? They don't even probably realize that its coming from this deeply embedded antiplayer element.

 

[goemon]

Well the RNG dictates when a faction incurs an unwanted state.

You might have delivered meds and food to everyday to prevent those unwanted states from developing but now we know its no avail. Gone is this pos aspect of engaged proactive gameplay.

So now that the RNG dictates when a system goes into a pending unwanted state regardless of the actions you might have offered the system, we don't know how large this "bucket" is to be able to empty it because that size is RNG generated.

Basically, RNG rules and the player is a game annoyance and interfering entity. Ever wonder why players generate so much rage? They don't even probably realize that its coming from this deeply embedded antiplayer element.

can you explain, where a random number generator, e.g. chance, plays a role in which states gets pending or active?

"Random number generation is the generation of a sequence of numbers or symbols that cannot be reasonably predicted better than by a random chance, usually through a random-number generator (RNG)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation

not knowing the size of a bucket doesn't make it RNG.

see my comment above about the difference of hull breach chance and hull hardness factor/armour penetration value.

 

[ShimEnki]

can you explain, where a random number generator, e.g. chance, plays a role in which states gets pending or active?

"Random number generation is the generation of a sequence of numbers or symbols that cannot be reasonably predicted better than by a random chance, usually through a random-number generator (RNG)." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random_number_generation

not knowing the size of a bucket doesn't make it RNG.

see my comment above about the difference of hull breach chance and hull hardness factor/armour penetration value.

From here cmdr

Originally Posted by Limoncello Lizard (Source)
I'm fairly sure that someone quoted a FD support person saying that some of the states used RNG to determine whether they happened

------------

I hope this isn't true.

If the player can dictate or help decide IF an unwanted state develops, then that's truly a good thing. I do sense its true as we DO decide if a boom occurs right?

But again, I don't like assuming. It could be that boom is all we as players have a proactive impact on.

Minimally knowing there are buckets present that we are always interacting with that move factions toward one state or another would help bigtime to a desire to lean in so to speak, even if we don't know how large these buckets are.

If RNG overrides player interaction re development of states, then its RNG in and of itself regardless of the technical aspects that still results in player negation. That's what I mean re RNG.

Where does hiding the size of the bucket and the equivalance between trade profits and the mission influence ++ come from?

 

[goemon]

From here cmdr

Originally Posted by Limoncello Lizard (Source)
I'm fairly sure that someone quoted a FD support person saying that some of the states used RNG to determine whether they happened

------------

I hope this isn't true.

well, if you want to take an indirect quote of a support person (which are known to have gotten things about the BGS wrong more than one time) above the direct quote of the executive producer from an oficial Dev Update i provided above, that's up to you.

i fail to see any reason to assume triggering states has anything to do with RNG or chance, because what michael brookes said above meets my experiences with the BGS - - till somebody comes up with a test proving it wrong

 

[ShimEnki]

well, if you want to take an indirect quote of a support person (which are known to have gotten things about the BGS wrong more than one time) above the direct quote of the executive producer from an oficial Dev Update i provided above, that's up to you.
because what michael brookes said above meets my experiences with the BGS - - till somebody comes up with a test proving it wrong

Well, that's good news then. I have been unintentionally testing this as I recently opened to a deeper BGS playstyle.

I have been feeding this particular faction basic, and advanced meds daily as well as keeping its specific needs filled with the raw materials its focused on regarding its industry so both outbreak and bust never see the pending state.
If pending occurs while I'm feeding in this focused way especially the tonnage I'm providing then it may reveal rng dictates, but then again other players might be feeding the opposite, but its highly unlikely with the same intensity.

 

[ShimEnki]

Do we know with respect to states only if the bucket, assuming its there pre pending, responds to units or profits ?

If its units then even though one might sell meds for example at a loss to reduce the outbreak bucket for whatever reason, the influence hit it would take can easily be reversed.

Also, is there an outbreak bucket for agri systems?

 

[goemon]

Do we know with respect to states only if the bucket, assuming its there pre pending, responds to units or profits ?

a bit different with each state bucket. in most cases it is weighted on number of transactions, with value (profit) as a minor multiplicator.

concerning trade influence, after the last BGS patch patching out the 1T trading exploit again, it looks as if it is transaction per commodity (per instance?), and value of profit/loss per ton taken into account. generally: trade with profit = gain influence. trade several commodities with profit = even more influence. profit isn't linear to influence gain, as well as total tonnage isn't linear to influence gain - there are diminuishing returns.

also, have in mind that there is a postive influence gain soft- or hardcap on any actions, which is down to population size ... for a 60k people system this is around 15%, which you can gain maximum per tick for a faction, if you don't add actions to the mix that hurt other factions influence directly.
__

I'm positive that your faction won't see any outbreak soon, if your system isn't a receiving system for a lot of missions with outbreak as an effect - but you'll see that in the traffic report.

 

[ShimEnki]

a bit different with each state bucket. in most cases it is weighted on number of transactions, with value (profit) as a minor multiplicator.

concerning trade influence, after the last BGS patch patching out the 1T trading exploit again, it looks as if it is transaction per commodity (per instance?), and value of profit/loss per ton taken into account. generally: trade with profit = gain influence. trade several commodities with profit = even more influence. profit isn't linear to influence gain, as well as total tonnage isn't linear to influence gain - there are diminuishing returns.

also, have in mind that there is a postive influence gain soft- or hardcap on any actions, which is down to population size ... for a 60k people system this is around 15%, which you can gain maximum per tick for a faction, if you don't add actions to the mix that hurt other factions influence directly.
__

I'm positive that your faction won't see any outbreak soon, if your system isn't a receiving system for a lot of missions with outbreak as an effect - but you'll see that in the traffic report.

Thanks, I appreciate the insight gained in the above info.

 

[ShimEnki]

Civil unrest/contentment

In some instances delivering alcohol generates the mission comm re increased chances of bust states and just now, a beer delivery stated improved civil contentment?

So does beer always bring greater contentment and liquor bust ( I assume via high alc content ) ?

Does Non lethal weaps and reactive armor also reduces civil unrest potentials? ( I assume via increased gear for police)

 

[goemon]

Civil unrest/contentment

In some instances delivering alcohol generates the mission comm re increased chances of bust states and just now, a beer delivery stated improved civil contentment?

So does beer always bring greater contentment and liquor bust ( I assume via high alc content ) ?

Does Non lethal weaps and reactive armor also reduces civil unrest potentials? ( I assume via increased gear for police)

i don't think so. the table from the BGS livestream only made a difference on commodity groups ("weapons", "food"). mission effects are a hint at best, what might be an effect of a commodity (which is why, for exampel, some think that biowaste trade adds to outbreak), but are independent from that. i had a fetch narcotics mission some days ago, for a faction where narcotics are illegal - and it added to boom.

have in mind, that several commodities can be legal or illegal depending on jurisdiction. liquor bulktrading should add to bust, where it is illegal - and weapons, no-matter which kind, should always add to civil unrest.

strange, but drugs ("legal drugs" like beer for exampel, or liquor where it is legal) are missing from that table. i have no idea whether that is an oversight, or they add to some state bucket by default.

the BGS livestream-table:

 

[Jmanis]

i don't think so. the table from the BGS livestream only made a difference on commodity groups ("weapons", "food"). mission effects are a hint at best, what might be an effect of a commodity (which is, for exampel, some think that biowaste trade adds to outbreak), but are independent from that. i had a fetch narcotics mission some days ago, for a faction where narcotics are illegal - and it added to boom.

have in mind, that several commodities can be legal or illegal depending on jurisdiction. liquor bulktrading should add to bust, where it is illegal - and weapons, no-matter which kind, should always add to civil unrest.

strange, but drugs ("legal drugs" like beer for exampel, or liquor where it is legal) are missing from that table. i have no idea whether that is an oversight, or they add to some state bucket by default.

the BGS livestream-table:

http://i.imgur.com/cwqqik4.png

See, I kinda take that table with a grain of salt. My faction is a dictatorship, and so I'm frequently running weapons all over the place because they're legal (The only illegal thing in dictatorships is Slaves and Toxic Waste, and obv stolen goods) and have good reliable profit margins. But I've (literally) never had Civil Unrest break out because of shipping weapons,,, only economic boom.

That table is quite old now, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's not completely valid anymore.

 

[goemon]

See, I kinda take that table with a grain of salt. My faction is a dictatorship, and so I'm frequently running weapons all over the place because they're legal (The only illegal thing in dictatorships is Slaves and Toxic Waste, and obv stolen goods) and have good reliable profit margins. But I've (literally) never had Civil Unrest break out because of shipping weapons,,, only economic boom.

That table is quite old now, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's not completely valid anymore.

I'd say your profits from trade simply fill the boom bucket faster than the civil unrest bucket; also more actions add to boom than to civil unrest - once boom is triggered, all buckets including civil unrest get set to 0 (beside famine and outbreak, which are halfed) and the whole process starts again.

we are repeatedly using legal weapons trade as a defensive strategy with a small player group being regularly attacked by a larger one by system security shootings. instead of lockdown we get into civil unrest, and push back via bounty hunting. it's working as expected (albeit no good testing, as a lot of player traffic involved).

anyway, i personally think that the structure is the same with any attempt to trigger outbreak by biowaste trade. either you trigger boom before the outbreak - in which case the outbreak bucket gets halfed, and the whole game starts again.... or you trigger bust by selling for a loss; same deal. i'm still searching for a no-traffic system with a good biowaste source close by where purchase price and sell price generate 0 profit ...

 

[ShimEnki]

So if delivering biowaste is separate from outbreak generation, in what way is it linked for the mission response to mention it?