A message to Frontier From D2EA

[Ian Doncaster]

The fall of ED has only one culprit and that is Frontier. The community has always pointed the way forward, but FDev does things that no one asks for or cares about, like Thargoid warfare.

Conveniently defining several tens of thousands of players who disagree with you as outside "The community" and therefore unpersons who can safely be ignored has been a common player mistake for a long time.

- The start of the war in U14 saw the largest boost in player activity since Fleet Carriers (and possibly since Beyond 3.3 depending on how you count).
- From the squadron leaderboards, between a third and a quarter of all active squadrons have at least one active AX pilot (and the majority of squadrons are small 1-3 player groups); actual war participation will be a bit higher as there are ways to participate which don't get AX points, and not everyone joins a squadron (or creates a personal one)
- The AX CGs tended to get equal or slightly higher participation to other CGs held at a similar time or location
- Prior to U14 there were regular threads started by players suggesting that the Thargoids should be more aggressive rather than sitting around in signal sources, actually invade the bubble, etc. etc.

There are a lot of issues in the details around the war, certainly - some where it needs mechanics or balancing adjusting, others caused by it being rolled out very slowly so it has periods of strategic stagnation - and those issues get a lot of comments and complaints. Specifically, they get a lot of complaints from people who are interested in the content, because the people who don't care about the war won't notice such things.

You can make an argument that Frontier should be focusing on developing something else - I'm not particularly interested in fighting Thargoids either, and I find the total focus on the war very samey in terms of story developments - without denying that all the players who are interested in it exist.

 

[Darrack]

FDev does things that no one asks for or cares about, like Thargoid warfare

Lots of folks are enjoying the Thargoid stuff, im not really into the combat side of things but i love sampling and exploring the new titans.
Basically 'or cares for' is wrong.

O7

 

[Rubbernuke]

Conveniently defining several tens of thousands of players who disagree with you as outside "The community" and therefore unpersons who can safely be ignored has been a common player mistake for a long time.

- The start of the war in U14 saw the largest boost in player activity since Fleet Carriers (and possibly since Beyond 3.3 depending on how you count).
- From the squadron leaderboards, between a third and a quarter of all active squadrons have at least one active AX pilot (and the majority of squadrons are small 1-3 player groups); actual war participation will be a bit higher as there are ways to participate which don't get AX points, and not everyone joins a squadron (or creates a personal one)
- The AX CGs tended to get equal or slightly higher participation to other CGs held at a similar time or location
- Prior to U14 there were regular threads started by players suggesting that the Thargoids should be more aggressive rather than sitting around in signal sources, actually invade the bubble, etc. etc.

There are a lot of issues in the details around the war, certainly - some where it needs mechanics or balancing adjusting, others caused by it being rolled out very slowly so it has periods of strategic stagnation - and those issues get a lot of comments and complaints. Specifically, they get a lot of complaints from people who are interested in the content, because the people who don't care about the war won't notice such things.

You can make an argument that Frontier should be focusing on developing something else - I'm not particularly interested in fighting Thargoids either, and I find the total focus on the war very samey in terms of story developments - without denying that all the players who are interested in it exist.

I think it (at a higher level) was partly wanting Thargoids (and the BGS more widely) actually represent and do something impactful. Prior it was only really Powerplay (which itself became static and ironically devolved down to BGS level) that felt something beyond local system level.

 

[CMDR Arcade Plaza]

Chipping in with my two cents worth,

I agree with some of D2EA on some of his points, others I don't really care about.

I agree that being able to plot multiple jumps in my FC would be nice as it's annoying having to route every single jump but I can see issues with this idea already. Multiple systems are already full of FC's so plotting would be a nightmare for the server to allocate but it would be nice to have if possible.

Cool down and spool up times only matter when you are jumping multiple jumps one after the other. This annoyance would disappear with multiple plotted jumps so that wouldn't bother me as I could set it and come back to it later once I'm where I wanted to be. To be honest my FC never leaves the bubble as I can get anywhere twice as fast in my exploration ship.

I would rather see some kind of player reward based around using a fleet carrier that could only be achieved if you have one as mine just sits in the bubble holding mass amounts of commodities until there's a cg that I can make some quick money, offset this against my weekly upkeep I'm considering decommissioning it as it's just an expensive garage to hold my ships at this point.

I enjoy the thargoid content, but must admit it seems like a one trick pony in my opinion. Yeah the titan was cool to see, for the first couple of times but now what..... Oh there's a new update, cool I can gather materials from the titan, now what...... I'm just sat about waiting for the next update so I can spend a few days enjoying the new content before I realise there's no depth in it to keep me engaged in it's gameplay.

My personal opinion leans towards a major lack of meaningful content in the game overall that shows itself during the down time between the updates.

I would love to get board of the thargoid content and decide to go exploring for the next 3 months until the next update but to what end? Once you have seen 500 baron planets if you don't count bacteria, then you have seen them all. What secrets lie out in the black for people to discover? Probably none unless your into strange anomalies like weird orbit planets or nested moons. Could we not have some content like new ruins or structure from ancient civilizations added into the game in systems that have yet to be discovered. Something, anything to make it worth exploring with the excitement of a first ever discovery in the game.

My current gameplay consists of grinding raw materials, then it's grinding manufactured materials all so I can unlock enough of the Azimuth pre engineered ax multi cannons to fill my needs. By that time the new update will have dropped which will probably see me grinding for access to that content. It just seems such a waste of the Galaxy for the majority of my in game time to be grind and not out there enjoying potential new things

 

[Agony_Aunt]

You have FD listening to the wrong set of people over the wrong issues. For example FD thinking an explorer knows more about the C+P system than someone who is a hardened criminal, or general ship balance from PvP experience. I fully understand you need to ensure the game suits everyone, but ultimately only those who walk the walk know how these systems work past breaking point.

I hate the phrase "stay in your lane" (in a general sense, not the discussion here) but re ED its very true and for a lot of problems could have saved a lot of time. What has happened is a lot of misplaced whining stopped beneficial change- those who have no interest in that area could not stand those who did know better knowing more.

That's why FD should only listen to you about Powerplay

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

@Aunty_Aunt
Same can be said about you or anyone else.
There are no innocents here, including myself..

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's why FD should only listen to you about Powerplay

If only they had...

Maybe I should talk about exploration changes

 

[Ultra Fluffy]

If only they had...

Maybe I should talk about exploration changes

Noooo!!! Don't do that. They will definitely ignore exploration then.

 

[HansAcker]

Interaction with all NPCs could be vastly improved with chatGPT. It sounds a bit robotic, but this will add a sea of depth to NPC interactions with unlimited AI generated in-character answers. It does not require voice actors, probably only a license to implement the software.

Pay variable running fees to make NPCs depend on an experimental 3rd party online service, you mean? One does not simply implement the software. It needs a language model and that's not for sale.

Then how do you make it talk? For system chatter, "Say something random liike a space pirate" might work in some cases and produce utter nonsense (grammatically correct) in many others. I'm not convinced that would be better than just shuffling a pool of lines. I don't deny that the pool could be larger and in need of some new lines but in the end, it's really just fluff.

Reacting to player input? That's quite a risk. And fun. LLMs are prone to prompt-injection, i.e. no matter how much the initial prompt "begs" the model to ignore instructions that tell it to ignore its instructions and do something else, it still doesn't work. While I'd like to see that, I don't think it would help sales much.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Noooo!!! Don't do that. They will definitely ignore exploration then.

It would be ironic though. aND FUN

LotS of fUn

 

[Ultra Fluffy]

It would be ironic though. aND FUN

LotS of fUn

So would periodic resets of the BGS

 

[Rubbernuke]

So would periodic resets of the BGS

It would be great. No more Sunday jaunts down the park.

You'd know nothing of the system bar what the star is, have to properly scan, survey. You'd also have the chance of getting lost and 'dying' for real.

Misjumps: pocket dimensions and finding your way out

Misjumps have featured heavily in older Elite titles. Although we know that the jump screens are loading screens that join two instances, could we use what we have and give things a Cthulhu twist? Player misjumps: either they jump with a damaged FSD or some other mechanic with fleet carriers...

forums.frontier.co.uk

You'd not have instawin space wardrobes and instead have your own portable shacks (no need to mine tritium too!)

DuhdahduDAHDAHDAHDUdadudaDUHH Thunderbird 2 like modular pod / deployable base / in flight interior

Although there is nothing wrong with posting some gratuitous vehicle shots (hnggg) I just wondered if FD could scratch multiple itches with this idea: First, for anyone who is unfamiliar, this is Thunderbird 2: Glorious 🥲 Now, imagine ships could be equipped with a similar drop pod, a bit...

forums.frontier.co.uk

And that exploration data is black boxed if you die, but can be located (like a POI) by others if close enough.

All of this feeds into the BGS and starmap- so that as explorers push out so does the map, and that surface bases (which can be added more easily) can expand the BGS organically.

You'd have 'competition' scanning missions, where you have a time limit to go to a new system and chart it (with military flavours, corpo etc) where one way to win is to nobble the NPC rival, or just be faster.

Everything would have a gameplay reason beyond credits too- expansion, superpower etc.

 

[Darrack]

It would be ironic though. aND FUN

LotS of fUn

O7

 

[Rubbernuke]

O7

"What is the point of stars

if not to conquer them?"

Rubbernuke, 3302

This is the holistic problem of ED- exploration should feed into exploitation by the BGS, and that as the BGS demands grow so does the need for ever more ambitious exploration. Exploration, BGS, Powerplay etc should interlock, not be isolated modules that have little common purpose.

 

[Shadowsnog]

"What is the point of stars

if not to conquer them?"

Rubbernuke, 3302

This is the holistic problem of ED- exploration should feed into exploitation by the BGS, and that as the BGS demands grow so does the need for ever more ambitious exploration. Exploration, BGS, Powerplay etc should interlock, not be isolated modules that have little common purpose.

do i hear colonisable deep space and player built ground bases?

 

[Rubbernuke]

do i hear colonisable deep space and player built ground bases?

The idea of droppable pods which are bases would be my answer to that (as linked)- not perfect but would (in groups too) scale to shanty town like places until the BGS expands 'officially'. Think of a hermit crab carrying its shell home.

 

[Darrack]

The idea of droppable pods which are bases would be my answer to that (as linked)- not perfect but would (in groups too) scale to shanty town like places until the BGS expands 'officially'. Think of a hermit crab carrying its shell home.

Fast way to ruin immmeeeeerrrsion even more, some of the ship names are bad enough, imagine the names of some of those outposts?

Spoiler: So sure as long as we get a new toy

O7

 

[Rubbernuke]

Fast way to ruin immmeeeeerrrsion even more, some of the ship names are bad enough, imagine the names of some of those outposts?

Spoiler: So sure as long as we get a new toy

O7

The pods won't have names, just as SLFs or SRVs are extensions of ships.

It also can't be as immersion breaking as some of the station names kickstarter people elected for.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

This is the holistic problem of ED- exploration should feed into exploitation by the BGS, and that as the BGS demands grow so does the need for ever more ambitious exploration. Exploration, BGS, Powerplay etc should interlock, not be isolated modules that have little common purpose.

The problem is (as with many things) the bubble is too large for that already, compared with the number of players (and indeed, makes no difference, compared with the peak number of active players). Most of the systems already only exist to be a line on some BGS planner's spreadsheet or a +4 CC to some control sphere.

If systems need some sort of maintenance to keep them going (which requires further expansion) then the result is that most of them collapse (far faster than the Thargoids could do it, too), and any expansion just increases demands without providing more players to go with them. It'd go very Powerplay "yes, we could prep and expand to another control system, but it'd just be extra maintenance for ourselves, vote consolidate". If systems (as now, provided you don't care which faction runs them) don't need maintenance once established, then there aren't BGS demands to drive the ambitious exploration.

Inverse-cube makes "ambitious" exploration difficult, too - doubling the system count of the bubble (another 20,000 systems no-one will visit) is only a 25% increase in radius.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The problem is (as with many things) the bubble is too large for that already, compared with the number of players (and indeed, makes no difference, compared with the peak number of active players). Most of the systems already only exist to be a line on some BGS planner's spreadsheet or a +4 CC to some control sphere.

If systems need some sort of maintenance to keep them going (which requires further expansion) then the result is that most of them collapse (far faster than the Thargoids could do it, too), and any expansion just increases demands without providing more players to go with them. It'd go very Powerplay "yes, we could prep and expand to another control system, but it'd just be extra maintenance for ourselves, vote consolidate". If systems (as now, provided you don't care which faction runs them) don't need maintenance once established, then there aren't BGS demands to drive the ambitious exploration.

Inverse-cube makes "ambitious" exploration difficult, too - doubling the system count of the bubble (another 20,000 systems no-one will visit) is only a 25% increase in radius.

Naturally, all of this would have had to had been pretty much at EDs birth where the need for it is clearly established and that exploration was the way things like Powers could generate new CC by establishing new colonies, or improving current ones (such as finding new deposits to enhance a bodies value). For small Powers like Delaine and Antal stuck in low profitable areas (and thus trapped) it would be one extra tool to use.

In a post scarcity setup like ED which is highly abstracted, the only 'real' way to use exploration beyond now (ego giggles) is to guide faction expansion and push outwards, and that once the basics are covered we get to what DBOBE talked about (system development / retardation via other BGS factors). You'd then have barren > survey > shack > surface outpost > space outpost > Coriolis (the latter two being harder since they can't be added as easily).

I mean for example (shooting from the hip)- an exploration data threshold triggers (rather than act as a direct BGS salve) boom states that themselves trigger 'gold rush' like 'search co-ords here' by that faction, which then trigger other factions to try and stop you finding more (or, they bribe you to change sides). Or that the mechanism for expansion was different, in that survey data was required- so that factions claim whole bodies in a system for them (rather than the fixed limit now). So initially in this ED, factions all start roughly one per system in most places (getting more dense as you get corewards). In this way exploration can be seen to visibly work.