A Simple Solution to Combat Logging

[C. FLOSS]

Yes, we're talking about a different set of variables.
Yes, your commander data is stored at fd's servers. And when you log in it is loaded into your client, and only into your client.
But, this data is not shared with the other people in the instance (the 'peers'). Noone else has access to your commander data. Instead your client just tranfers a tiny fraction of your current ship stats to the peers, and thats the empty shell I was talking about.
Not even fd knows the actual stat of your ship in the instance (the instance is serverless), they know just what your client reports back to fd's servers every now and then.

Umm, hi, CMDR Hossi! How is it possible that my ship computer can show me the other CMDR's name, his rank, his ship name and the ship type, and the ships submodules if my ships computer at the same time knows nothing of the other ship? I think it even knows what the other ships paint jobs are. That seems a lot of stuff to go with already! Scanning module modifications shouldn't be much extra data to sniff and then thats about all there is.

No I don't work for Gutamaya, just you can figure these things out by sitting at the cockpit and looking at the displays.


Bests,
CMDR C. FLOSS
Imperial Princess

 

[Brrokk]

Umm, hi, CMDR Hossi! How is it possible that my ship computer can show me the other CMDR's name, his rank, his ship name and the ship type, and the ships submodules if my ships computer at the same time knows nothing of the other ship? I think it even knows what the other ships paint jobs are. That seems a lot of stuff to go with already! Scanning module modifications shouldn't be much extra data to sniff and then thats about all there is.

No I don't work for Gutamaya, just you can figure these things out by sitting at the cockpit and looking at the displays.


Bests,
CMDR C. FLOSS
Imperial Princess

Your client is connected to the other player's client. That's what "peer to peer" means.

 

[Simplystyc]

Combat logging is a major exploit in player versus player combat, and a timer is not enough to mitigate this issue. Some players have suggested to increase the timer, but this does not prevent exiting by pulling the network cables. The ideal solution is as simple as allowing the player to quit the game, but for their ship to remain in that instance unless they are docked at a station or there are no hostile players/NPCs in that instance. To prevent the server from flooding, a time limit could be implemented - eg. the ship remains in that instance for 10 minutes before being removed.

This mechanic is present in many multiplayer games and I don't see this as being too hard to implement. There may be better solutions out there, but the current state which allows you to exit and your ship disappears immediately is inappropriate for a game with PvP combat.

Problem is that it is impossible to do this with FDEV's P2P netcode. Once a player logs out, that P2P connection is severed. The instance is not on a dedicated server so there is no way for the ship to remain on the server untill they log back in.

It's a nice idea, but would require considerably more effort to implement, than is worth imo.

An easier alternative would be for the player to log back in and would receive a open play cooldown, much like certain other online games..

Take Rainbow Six Siege for example. If you are in a competitive match and disconnect, regardless if it's intentional or not, you will receive a cooldown before you can play ranked again. You will also lose the points/rank earned that match.

If they implemented this in Elite for Open play, that would go a long way in discouraging logging. You log, you lost the credits/rep/progress you made in that session, and are forced to play in solo for a duration. Repeated logs would increase the time before you could use Open again.

 

[Northpin]

If they implemented this in Elite for Open play, that would go a long way in discouraging logging. You log, you lost the credits/rep/progress you made in that session, and are forced to play in solo for a duration. Repeated logs would increase the time before you could use Open again.

Not really.
Most of the cloggers are people that are not exactly into pvp and they do it to preserve their stuff that would be lost otherwise (explo data, vouchers, cargo, missions)
Preventing them to relog into open will do nothing.

to really mitigate clogging would necessitate:
1) a rewrite of the netcode and implementing session servers to maintain the player instance data (that would mean for them to allocate resources to code that, infrastructure for session servers and also recurrent fees to maintain the infrastructure)
or
2) keep the netcode as it is but remove the reasons to clog in the first place - aka drop any death penalty except maybe the rebuy cost.

anyway, none of them are acceptable by the player base, so yea - forum pvp is nice and ranting about clog is even nicer

 

[Simplystyc]

Not really.
Most of the cloggers are people that are not exactly into pvp and they do it to preserve their stuff that would be lost otherwise (explo data, vouchers, cargo, missions)
Preventing them to relog into open will do nothing.

to really mitigate clogging would necessitate:
1) a rewrite of the netcode and implementing session servers to maintain the player instance data (that would mean for them to allocate resources to code that, infrastructure for session servers and also recurrent fees to maintain the infrastructure)
or
2) keep the netcode as it is but remove the reasons to clog in the first place - aka drop any death penalty except maybe the rebuy cost.

anyway, none of them are acceptable by the player base, so yea - forum pvp is nice and ranting about clog is even nicer

You can't log in solo. OP was talking about Combat Logging in Open, which is an issue. Losing ones progress for logging for that session would be a perfect deterrent. You want to log? Go to solo and log on the NPCs

EDIT: We are not discussing IF combat logging is and issue and WHY it is an issue. We know it IS an issue and a serious one at that.

 

[Northpin]

You can't log in solo. OP was talking about Combat Logging in Open, which is an issue. Losing ones progress for logging for that session would be a perfect deterrent. You want to log? Go to solo and log on the NPCs

ofc it is about open, who cares if you clog on an npc in solo?
Anyway, how do you separate the actual clogs from the random connectivity issues / game crashes? What will the player base do? Relog hourly to minimize the loss in case of a crash?
The poo-storm will hit the fan really fast or the open will get deserted really fast.

 

[Simplystyc]

ofc it is about open, who cares if you clog on an npc in solo?
Anyway, how do you separate the actual clogs from the random connectivity issues / game crashes? What will the player base do? Relog hourly to minimize the loss in case of a crash?
The poo-storm will hit the fan really fast or the open will get deserted really fast.

That is a common strawman that many run to in attempt to deflect the real issue.

What do players who get accidental or ISP related disconnections do in Ranked games such as: Rainbow Six Siege, Apex Legends, CS-GO etc?

They, realize that that cooldown feature is there for a reason, they suck it up and wait it out. They don't complain because it's a part of the game.

Same should go for Elite: Dangerous.

EDIT: A poor connection or unreliable ISP is not Elite's Fault. That's the fault of your isp, or your location. There is nothing anyone can do about it.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

That is a common strawman that many run to in attempt to deflect the real issue.

What do players who get accidental or ISP related disconnections do in Ranked games such as: Rainbow Six Siege, Apex Legends, CS-GO etc?

They, realize that that cooldown feature is there for a reason, they suck it up and wait it out. They don't complain because it's a part of the game.

Same should go for Elite: Dangerous.

EDIT: A poor connection or unreliable ISP is not Elite's Fault. That's the fault of your isp, or your location. There is nothing anyone can do about it.

ED isn't a shooter.

 

[Simplystyc]

ED isn't a shooter.

Obv. However it is a online Multiplayer Video Game. I am using the games I listed as an example.

 

[Northpin]

That is a common strawman that many run to in attempt to deflect the real issue.

What do players who get accidental or ISP related disconnections do in Ranked games such as: Rainbow Six Siege, Apex Legends, CS-GO etc?

They, realize that that cooldown feature is there for a reason, they suck it up and wait it out. They don't complain because it's a part of the game.

Same should go for Elite: Dangerous.

Because Elite Dangerous is a Ranked PVP Game?
oh my

PVP is a minority component of really huge game that can be played without any weapons for an entire career

 

[Simplystyc]

Because Elite Dangerous is a Ranked PVP Game?
oh my

PVP is a minority component of really huge game that can be played without any weapons for an entire career

Combat Logging is clearly a Player vs Player issue.

 

[Watcher]

Combat logging is a major exploit in player versus player combat, and a timer is not enough to mitigate this issue. Some players have suggested to increase the timer, but this does not prevent exiting by pulling the network cables. The ideal solution is as simple as allowing the player to quit the game, but for their ship to remain in that instance unless they are docked at a station or there are no hostile players/NPCs in that instance. To prevent the server from flooding, a time limit could be implemented - eg. the ship remains in that instance for 10 minutes before being removed.

This mechanic is present in many multiplayer games and I don't see this as being too hard to implement. There may be better solutions out there, but the current state which allows you to exit and your ship disappears immediately is inappropriate for a game with PvP combat.

How about the ship looks like it is still there but actually isn't. Attacking commander can blow it up and feel all great for destroying another commander (gets bounties if any etc) and is none the wiser that they haven't, the attacked commander doesn't suffer any actual penalty other than perhaps feeling a bit guilty about yanking the cable. Everyone wins

If both commanders actual want to fight to the death then they can still do that but is up to them...

Variation, PvP flag but doesn't stop people from engaging you as such but means they'll immediately play versus a bot and the actual commander can carry on as if you didn't attack... Maybe

 

[Mimix]

Not really.
Most of the cloggers are people that are not exactly into pvp and they do it to preserve their stuff that would be lost otherwise (explo data, vouchers, cargo, missions)
Preventing them to relog into open will do nothing.

After reading some posts I do realise that implementing this feature is difficult, but leaving everything as it is and having an "oh who cares just pretend you won" attitude towards this isn't going to help anyone. If someone logs because they didn't want to lose property, why are they playing in open in the first place? If they've got network issues, that's their problem, not the other player's. If you know that your internet connection can go at any time, you shouldn't be engaging into direct combat against another player in the first place and then using your unstable internet connection as an excuse.

I think the real compromise here is keeping everything as it is in solo and implementing stricter clogging restrictions in open - that way, people who clog can do that all they want against NPCs in solo, but if they go into open they acknowledge the fact that there are other players out there and you cannot simply leave in the middle of combat without consequences. That way, everyone's happy - the players who do PvP combat and the players who don't want to lose credits/ships/cargo in combat against other players.

I'm not ranting or anything, but since PvP is a major element in this game I see no harm in adding some consequences to clogging. Fly safe o7

 

[Simplystyc]

I'm not ranting or anything, but since PvP is a major element in this game I see no harm in adding some consequences to clogging. Fly safe o7

Incoming! I can just hear the keyboards typing the phrases like: "PvP is not a major element etc"

 

[Northpin]

...but since PvP is a major element in this game I see no harm in adding some consequences to clogging. Fly safe o7

No, pvp isn't a major element.
Exploration, Trade, Combat - these are the major elements.
PvP is a minor subset of the Combat part. Further split down by the modes.

But again, this is a solo game with multiplayer slapped over.

And, more importantly, it is working as designed actually - since it is designed to remove your ship from the game in case of a disconnection - no matter the reason, be it a crash, an internet glitch, a voluntary cable plug / router reset.

And unless the design changes, clogging will still be an issue.

Incoming! I can just hear the keyboards typing the phrases like: "PvP is not a major element etc"

shrugs

 

[Simplystyc]

No, pvp isn't a major element.
Exploration, Trade, Combat - these are the major elements.
PvP is a minor subset of the Combat part. Further split down by the modes.

But again, this is a solo game with multiplayer slapped over.

And, more importantly, it is working as designed actually - since it is designed to remove your ship from the game in case of a disconnection - no matter the reason, be it a crash, an internet glitch, a voluntary cable plug / router reset.

And unless the design changes, clogging will still be an issue.




shrugs

Thanks for proving my point! lol!

 

[Northpin]

Obv. However it is a online Multiplayer Video Game. I am using the games I listed as an example.

I have 6000 hours in DOTA2 which is a game with ranked pvp - your examples would be valid for Dota and your proposed solution would work in Dota, but ED is a totally different game and can't be compared.

 

[Simplystyc]

I have 6000 hours in DOTA2 which is a game with ranked pvp - your examples would be valid for Dota and your proposed solution would work in Dota, but ED is a totally different game and can't be compared.

Sure it's a totally different game. However Combat Logging is a PvP issue. Otherwise It wouldn't be considered Combat Logging now would it?

Noone cares if you log on a NPC, if you did it would be a laugh.

My point stands.

 

[Northpin]

Sure it's a totally different game. However Combat Logging is a PvP issue. Otherwise It wouldn't be considered Combat Logging now would it?

Noone cares if you log on a NPC, if you did it would be a laugh.

My point stands.

But some of the pvp-ers openly admitted they clog on hge's
As far as i'm concerned, it is as bad as clogging in pvp.

 

[Simplystyc]

But some of the pvp-ers openly admitted they clog on hge's
As far as i'm concerned, it is as bad as clogging in pvp.

That's not combat logging. It's an exploit.

It's not good, but again, you are attempting to derail the conversation. We are not talking about some PvPers expoiting a FDEV bug. We are talking about Combat Logging.

The term Combat Logging means you are in a combat situation with another player, regardless if it's consensual or not and you taskkill or pull your ethernet cord.