A Simple Solution to Combat Logging

Simplystyc

Banned
As been posted above, clogging is a deliberate act - you should try to find out who is typically doing it, then what are the reasons behind it, then come with a solution.
But you dont even seem to consider that.
You are just ranting against clogging and how it affects pvp. I'd say clogging doesn't affect pvp at all, at least not consensual pvp, but bear with me.
I'll try to have a go at it.

Pvp community is very strict and very harsh about it. So never ever clog.
They even forbid menu logging - which is a legit mean of quitting the game.
Again, as a pvp-er never ever clog, never ever menu log. Else one gets shamed and even excluded from the pvp community
So i think we are safe to conclude that a pvp-er worthy of the tag never clogs and never menu logs. Ever.

So who does it?
Maybe the ganker that enjoys seal clubbing but cannot take the rebuy screen
Maybe the casual that plays in open for the social aspect of the game and is annoyed when someone interrupts his sightseeing with an interdiction
Maybe the newb that barely dragged his 1t of meta alloys to Farseer only to be blown while requesting docking permission. He then comes to whine on the forums and eventually finds about clogging...
Or maybe someone at the wrong place and time that doesn't want to lose his exploration data, missions, cargo, slf pilot, whatever.

Basically, anyone that is not part of the pvp community can be tempted to clog. What they have to lose anyways?
At worst a temporary ban to solo, lol.

You say that clogging affects the pvp-ers. I'd say not.
I say that clogging affects the relation between a pvp-er and a non-pvp-er. Which is a non-relation anyways.

A simple solution might be to stop forcing pvp on randoms.
Another one would be to remove the death penalty at all. If nothing to lose, why clogging the first place?
Being blown up would be like "omg, this is waaay faster that the docking computer"

the less simple solutions would be:
open-pve
pvp-flagging
rewriting the netcode and implementing session servers


But the really really simple solution is to stop caring.
Somone clogs on you - you own that. It's on you.
It only means you picked the wrong target. #%^& him and move along.


As i said, i'd ban to solo any clogger, even temporary - but even that would mean a lot of man-hours on FDev's part to analyze any complain and make sure it was a real clogger and not a fluke.


Edit: pff, what a wall of text i put up.
And there we have it folks.

Pro Tip man, just be a little more direct next time and I can try and respond better. Just hard to do so when we keep going off subject.

Its not why people are logging, we know they are, we know why. All we want FDEV to do is actually do something about it. I proposed a solution, it might not be the solution FDEV decides on, only time will tell.

Kudos people. o7
 
So is Menu Logging now a "cheat"?
As that op seems to call it that in the first sentence.

Since a lot has been talked over, I will propose one thing i'd like implemented in ED though: a pause button when playing Solo (and possibly in PG/Open for a single cmdr in an instance, and no other cmdrs in the system, ie not trying to avoid human PvP).

It would be handy for real life calls, wouldn't impact any human PvPers, but allow players who may menu/clog to have an alternative.
 
So is Menu Logging now a "cheat"?
As that op seems to call it that in the first sentence.
You seem to be mixing up menu logging and forcefully exiting the game during PvP in order to avoid being destroyed. Yes, in my opinion, pulling the internet cables or killing the game process during PvP against another player in order to avoid death is an exploit/cheat.
 
Oh, THIS topic again.

How do you know there's not a legitimate reason for the player you're attempting to engage being disconnected to begin with?

If the power goes out and you get disconnected... would you feel it OK to be subjected to the same penalties you're asking others to be subjected to?

Also, it's just a video game. (You know, same dismissive response people give to anyone who complains about their ships being blown up) Applies equally in either scenario, dunnit?
 
You seem to be mixing up menu logging and forcefully exiting the game during PvP in order to avoid being destroyed. Yes, in my opinion, pulling the internet cables or killing the game process during PvP against another player in order to avoid death is an exploit/cheat.

I agree... so long as that is what's happening. If people are proven to be doing it, good with taking them to the woodshed. That second part is tricky.
 

Simplystyc

Banned
Oh, THIS topic again.

How do you know there's not a legitimate reason for the player you're attempting to engage being disconnected to begin with?

If the power goes out and you get disconnected... would you feel it OK to be subjected to the same penalties you're asking others to be subjected to?

Also, it's just a video game. (You know, same dismissive response people give to anyone who complains about their ships being blown up) Applies equally in either scenario, dunnit?
Please read the above comments before continuing to treat this as "THIS topic again"
 
Please read the above comments before continuing to treat this as "THIS topic again"

How's it any different? It's whinging about combat logging. It's the same old tired topic it always has been- with a different twist in melodramatic attitude.

Again- how does one prove the other player doesn't have some sort of legitimate reason for being disconnected to the game- and would whomever is complaining be willing to accept the same consequences for being accused of "cheating"?

And yet once more, it's a video game- not some sort of RL emergency life or death situation that requires immediate developer attention.

This isn't even some sort of competitive tournament where prize money is at stake, either.
 

Simplystyc

Banned
How's it any different? It's whinging about combat logging. It's the same old tired topic it always has been- with a different twist in melodramatic attitude.

Again- how does one prove the other player doesn't have some sort of legitimate reason for being disconnected to the game- and would whomever is complaining be willing to accept the same consequences for being accused of "cheating"?

And yet once more, it's a video game- not some sort of RL emergency life or death situation that requires immediate developer attention.

This isn't even some sort of competitive tournament where prize money is at stake, either.
Sigh. If you won't put any effort into actually reading peoples comments, than please for the love of Braben don't start tooting your horn when you are just making assumptions.
 
Sigh. If you won't put any effort into actually reading peoples comments, than please for the love of Braben don't start tooting your horn when you are just making assumptions.

How do you know I haven't read the comments? Now who's making assumptions?
 
Look at this dood lmao

Keep it up. You're doing a wonderful job at trolling here. If you're not going to answer my questions, and just want to attempt to discredit me based on complete assumption that I haven't read the posts in the thread, then that's really all you're doing here. Why should anyone take what you say seriously?
 

Simplystyc

Banned
Keep it up. You're doing a wonderful job at trolling here. If you're not going to answer my questions, and just want to attempt to discredit me based on complete assumption that I haven't read the posts in the thread, then that's really all you're doing here. Why should anyone take what you say seriously?
Yeah I won't be baited by the likes of you.
 
Yeah I won't be baited by the likes of you.

Again, you still haven't answered any of my questions, and continue to attempt to derail the thread with addressing me in a dismissive manner. I'm not "baiting" you, I asked rather direct questions regarding your response for which you have yet to demonstrate any viability. If you feel I'm "baiting" you then report my posts so that a moderator can decide.
 
Attacking commander can blow it up and feel all great for destroying another commander (gets bounties if any etc) and is none the wiser that they haven't, the attacked commander doesn't suffer any actual penalty other than perhaps feeling a bit guilty about yanking the cable. Everyone wins :D
Already mentioned earlier but there are players for whom that would simply not be enough unless they were "sending someone to the rebuy screen". They're a subset of a subset but they're out there and they would likely be very vocal at the thought that their PVP kills weren't causing distress to another player.

After reading some posts I do realise that implementing this feature is difficult, but leaving everything as it is and having an "oh who cares just pretend you won" attitude towards this isn't going to help anyone.
Implementing the feature as requested in the current game isn't difficult, it's impossible. Implementing a whole new networking architecture, then implementing the feature as part of that might be possible but it's not something FD have given any indication of being interested in. But there are some big changes afoot so you never know.

If someone logs because they didn't want to lose property, why are they playing in open in the first place?
That's the more interesting question. There is some evidence on the forums (assuming it's posted in good faith, of course) that a few players glean as much pleasure from wasting the time of those wishing to "send them to the rebuy screen" as those other players glean from doing the sending, although I suspect that's a subset of a subset of a subset.

But in general I've no idea, and I've been here for a long long time. As a largely non-PVP player I used to bounce between modes waiting for the day when FD would implement sensible, scalable, system-dependent authority response so I could minimise encounters by choosing my routes / cargoes / allegiances carefully rather than simply avoiding locations with the most hollow squares. But as soon as I realised that wasn't going to happen -- even ATR is a band-aid rather than significant rethink -- and that Open would always the de facto "PVP mode" everywhere, I stopped using Open.

Why others with similar attitudes towards PVP continue to do so, certainly more than once, is an utter mystery to me. Maybe it's for non-PVP interaction, because Open does tend to offer more random instancing than even the busiest private groups. It's an argument I've seen a few times on here. Personally I don't get it. It's like frequenting the nightclub with the worst reputation for random stabbings because it's always wall-to-wall. But hey, horses for courses. And my nightclub days are as far behind me as my Open days, so perhaps that's not the greatest analogy.

I'm not ranting or anything, but since PvP is a major element in this game I see no harm in adding some consequences to clogging.
I see others have beaten me to it, but I would dispute the word "major" unless you're speaking subjectively. According to this infamous quote, PVP was a minor activity across the player base as a whole in 2016, and I've not seen anything authoritative to supersede this:

While it's true that the PvP crowd do tend to be more vocal and in previous betas have given more organised feedback, we're well aware that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP.

The key is coming up with a workable method for adding some consequences. Without that, it's unfortunately just a wishlist. One that's been around pretty much since gamma, if not DDF.

Incoming! I can just hear the keyboards typing the phrases like: "PvP is not a major element etc"
Yes, it's annoying when those pesky facts get in the way of a good opinion.
 
EDIT: We are not discussing IF combat logging is and issue and WHY it is an issue. We know it IS an issue and a serious one at that.
No, actually I think we are discussing exactly that.
We all know that clogging is a thing, but is it an issue? And if so, is it big enough of an issue to justify causing problems elsewhere?

You see, ED isn't a competitive pvp game, its a multiplayer pve game with purely optional pvp elements.

That means that its a small minority that is effected by clogging, and you have to ensure that the majority who has no interested in pvp is not harmed by any anti clogging measures. Is it possible? I'd say yes. I made a suggestion, but from the replies its pretty obvious that many people fear problems for there playstyle caused by unreliable connectivity. And it doesn't help to say 'their connection is not my issue', because it obviously a major part of the whole problem, you cant just ignore that.

For fdev that means simply, any system designed to counteract clogging
-would require resources
-would only benefit a minority
-could harm a noteworthy fraction of the playerbase
-it could cause an immense backlash especially if the connection problem is on fd's side
-it cant possibly cover p2p blocking

And I think thats exactly why fdev has decided to do: Nothing.
I think they have checked their options, evaluated the possibilities, discussed the possible consequences, and concluded that its not worth it.

I don't think fd will do anything about clogging.

Do I think that this is a good thing? Nah
A bad thing? Meh

Honestly, I don't have hard feelings about it whatsoever, mostly because I have never seen anyone clogging in the 4500 hours I spend in this game.
 
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