A Simple Solution to Combat Logging

Pretending that the discussion has anything to do with "forcing" players to play the game is very much a strawman argument. Nobody made that claim.

I don't need to contact Frontier, since I've pointed out where it is in the EULA several times now.

I did contact Frontier. And you really obviously do not understand what a strawman is, but I am not here to teach you.
Frontier looked at options a couple of years ago and concluded there is nothing they can do about it. Move on. Get on with your life. If someone doesn’t want to play the game with you, it’s not the end of the world.
 
As I have said, no-one can legally force you to stay logged into a game against your will. Nor can they punish you for logging out when you choose. That’s the bottom line. Move on. This is boring.
Your response is entirely unrelated to what I posted. You seem to struggle with comprehending the context of the discussion.

You said combat logging is an exploit. The EULA expressly forbids exploits. I have clearly pointed out exactly where this is said.
 
Just playing Devil's Advocate, but...

4.4 You may not use the Game or any Online Features in a manner that could damage, disable, impair, overburden or compromise our systems or security or interfere with the experience of other users of the Game or any Online Feature.

Doesn't this explicitly make Ganking bannable as it is against the EULA? (Assuming legitimate PvP is by consent)

Just mentioning it as there is so much angst here about dirty disconnects :)

This is one of those wonderful, built-in, specifically vague, reviewed by lawyers to ensure vagueness, grey areas. Frontier need only claim a person's non-consensual forced PvP is an intended experience, and they're completely covered. While I do not disagree, forced attrition is forced, and may very well violate the spirit of the language, the letter of the language is upheld.
 
I thought an exploit was a means of gaining advantage and cheating. Combat logging isn't an exploit to win anything. Logging off could be a means of avoiding high rebuys if you're getting ganked should be allowed. In a 1 on 1 fair fight, with both ships exchanging fire, combat logging should result in destruction.

-k
 
I thought an exploit was a means of gaining advantage and cheating. Combat logging isn't an exploit to win anything. Logging off could be a means of avoiding high rebuys if you're getting ganked should be allowed. In a 1 on 1 fair fight, with both ships exchanging fire, combat logging should result in destruction.

Why is 1-v-1 "fair" and N-v-1 ''ganked'? Any sensible group looking to combat other ships would travel in wings whenever possible unless you are specifically dueling.
 
I'd seriously like to know what the discernable difference is between a PvPer and a Ganker, at this point. I'll leave "griefer" to the side for the moment, considering it's a hotly debatable (and arguable derogatory, akin to "carebear") term.
okay...let me try it to explain, despite the "foreign" language.

PvPer: Someone who seeks out to messure strength, skill, builds with other players on a comparible basis.

Ganker(Griefer): Someone who's only picking targets that are CLEARLY less capable of delivering a fair fight, weaker skills, low grade builds or equipment. And a ganker is someone who runs as soon as he fears serious competition.

A Comparison: At school you have a boxing-class where all the "big-guys" hitting each other their brains out (PvPer). And then there are the yard-bullies who are annoying other scholars that are weaker or 2-3 grades below the bully and as soon as one of the "big-guys" arrive, asking him what the hell he is doing, he'll get out as fast as he can (Ganker).
 
Last edited:
I did contact Frontier. And you really obviously do not understand what a strawman is, but I am not here to teach you.
Frontier looked at options a couple of years ago and concluded there is nothing they can do about it. Move on. Get on with your life. If someone doesn’t want to play the game with you, it’s not the end of the world.
The fact that you can look at the definition of a word and then still say "well, you don't know what that means" pretty well sums up the entirety of your responses thus far.

I've been pointing to the EULA stating exactly what I'm saying, linking to it, quoting it, and you're just insisting it doesn't say what it says.

Let's sum it up:
XAAnrN1.png
 
Why is 1-v-1 "fair" and N-v-1 ''ganked'? Any sensible group looking to combat other ships would travel in wings whenever possible unless you are specifically dueling.

It was an example to mean that if you agree to fight, wing or one on one, and then start to lose you should not be able to log off without penalty. Escaping unwanted battles should be possible though.

-k
 
I thought an exploit was a means of gaining advantage and cheating. Combat logging isn't an exploit to win anything. Logging off could be a means of avoiding high rebuys if you're getting ganked should be allowed. In a 1 on 1 fair fight, with both ships exchanging fire, combat logging should result in destruction.

-k
Logging off during combat is a valid procedure, as long as it's through the main menu (with the 10sec. cooldown). Quitting the game-client-task via Alt-F4 or "pulling the plug" is not valid and is called an exploit by Frontier.
But at the state the game is designed right now, you cannot cleary differ between a forced "gamecrash" and a "connection loss". For example: I'm in my uber super expensive ship and want to rumble in Deciat, but as soon as the fight begins, my router's deciding to get out of this world. I have a connection loss. For my opponent it seems that I c-logged, although I was INTENDED to fight this fight till the end.
 
It was an example to mean that if you agree to fight, wing or one on one, and then start to lose you should not be able to log off without penalty. Escaping unwanted battles should be possible though.

-k

I see. Largely agree.

There are a number of ways to escape though within the game and then there is always the menu if you can hold up for 15 seconds and the scorn. Pulling the plug on the process or connection though isn't an option that needs to be legit.
 
I see. Largely agree.

There are a number of ways to escape though within the game and then there is always the menu if you can hold up for 15 seconds and the scorn. Pulling the plug on the process or connection though isn't an option that needs to be legit.
While it is not an option that needs to be legit, automatically punishing a disconnect as if it were an intentional disconnect is also not a legitimate action for the developer.
The ability to have no false positives (or at least a very small percentage) is the first step.
Unfortunately I do not think simple enters into any part of the discussion unless it is to simply take it as a win if someone disconnects.
 
So, if an aggressor's connection is disrupted for any reason during an attempted gank, the defender is encouraged to blow up the ganker's disabled and frozen ship that remained in the instance when the ganker's connection was disrupted?
Strawman? A real ganker choses to "PvP" enemies without guns. Pffft git gud ;)

Why is 1-v-1 "fair" and N-v-1 ''ganked'?
Gank / ganking / ganker is an old MMO term, way before Elite: Dangerous, so has a pretty accepted definition: part of which is choosing a fundamentally unfair fight.

While it may not be specifically to cause grief, there was always an undertone to do so, but also troll say newbie level 1 players just trying to kill 5 deer, and a group of level 50s killing that player over and over.
 
Last edited:
True. I had two random CTD on Xbox One this weekend, and I usually play in solo (well right now always because I haven't bothered to renew Xbox Live).
-k
 
While it is not an option that needs to be legit, automatically punishing a disconnect as if it were an intentional disconnect is also not a legitimate action for the developer.
The ability to have no false positives (or at least a very small percentage) is the first step.
Unfortunately I do not think simple enters into any part of the discussion unless it is to simply take it as a win if someone disconnects.

Look at my history in this conversation, you won't find me arguing that it is. You have to look at context and make the best call you can, but a once-in-a-while game crash, or connection failure should not result in penalty. If you always have 'problems' when interdicted, but never anywhere else then it's reasonable to say you are c-logging and penalty is warranted.
 
Logging off during combat is a valid procedure, as long as it's through the main menu (with the 10sec. cooldown). Quitting the game-client-task via Alt-F4 or "pulling the plug" is not valid and is called an exploit by Frontier.
But at the state the game is designed right now, you cannot cleary differ between a forced "gamecrash" and a "connection loss". For example: I'm in my uber super expensive ship and want to rumble in Deciat, but as soon as the fight begins, my router's deciding to get out of this world. I have a connection loss. For my opponent it seems that I c-logged, although I was INTENDED to fight this fight till the end.
My internet is DSL and comes into my home via approximately 2500 lin. ft. of 20 year old phone line buried in the ground. Same phone line we abandoned because we couldn't rely on the landline for our home security monitoring. So yea I have a pretty dodgy connection and really bad if it's been raining alot.

With that said, I don't actively seek out PvP (for the above reasons) but I do not shy away. Way back when I stayed in Mobius until I had enough banked for rebuys. I now fly in open most of the time and what Eliza posted above has happened to me once. I felt pretty bad but what could I do? That day I was getting mauve adders like every 5 minutes it seemed. Other days I can stay logged on for hours and hours without a hiccup.
So I guess my point is that it really does happen but a clogger will do it habitually I am guessing? I would then block that person so no worries anymore.
 
My internet is DSL and comes into my home via approximately 2500 lin. ft. of 20 year old phone line buried in the ground. Same phone line we abandoned because we couldn't rely on the landline for our home security monitoring. So yea I have a pretty dodgy connection and really bad if it's been raining alot.

With that said, I don't actively seek out PvP (for the above reasons) but I do not shy away. Way back when I stayed in Mobius until I had enough banked for rebuys. I now fly in open most of the time and what Eliza posted above has happened to me once. I felt pretty bad but what could I do? That day I was getting mauve adders like every 5 minutes it seemed. Other days I can stay logged on for hours and hours without a hiccup.
So I guess my point is that it really does happen but a clogger will do it habitually I am guessing? I would then block that person so no worries anymore.
That's exactly what I tried to explain how diffucult it is to "punish" c-logger yet alone identify them clearly. I guess you won't be very satisfied to loose your ship just because neighbour's dog peed on your landline. ;)
 
I've made this same comparison before, and people always love to argue about it, but it remains every bit as valid:

A US Supreme Court Justice once said: "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, [...]".

While Potter Stewart did later say that this was not as solid an expression, nor one as memorable as he would have liked, the spirit of the statement holds quite true, especially when we speak of "griefing" and "ganking".

These are very much subjective terms, just as a definition of what constitutes legal obscenity is still very much a subjective matter.

While the argument that, for the sake of example a 5 on 1 fight might not seem "fair", let's look at a few possible outcomes:

1. The 5 dispatch the 1 with ease. The 1 was a willing participant. No harm, no foul.
2. The 5 dispatch the 1 with ease. The 1 was not a willing participant. This gets termed to be a "gank".
3. The 1 puts up a valiant fight, was a willing participant, no harm, no foul.
4. The 1 puts up a valiant fight, was not a willing participant, again, no harm, no foul. Could be called a "gank".
5. The 1 puts up a valiant fight, turns the tables on his attackers, and dispatches all of them. No harm, no foul, possible bragging rights.
6. The 1 is an incredible pilot, willing or otherwise, and decimates the 5. Again, no harm, no foul, and we never hear a word from any of the 5 around here, because who wants to own up to getting the floors mopped with them and all their friends by one lone pilot?

These just serve to illustrate the subjective nature of this particular term.

"Griefing" on the other hand... again, still subjective, and arguably a form of harassment, is perhaps a little easier to define within some manner of scope. Actions taken that are unwelcome, repeated, accompanied by badgering comms - for example, hunting a single player to a station and denying them departure by repeatedly attacking and destroying the same player, while telling them "We don't want Imperial/Federal scum in our system and you suck, learn to fly." - few would argue this isn't "Griefing", few would argue this isn't harassment. Fewer still might actually seek out this sort of encounter, if there were the one subjected to these kinds of attacks.

Again, a purely hypothetical situation, for the sake of making a point that is comprehensible, when discussing what is, by its nature, a subjective matter. We may not be able to define it clearly, but we do know it when we see it. What matters most is what we do about it and how we react to it.
 
That's exactly what I tried to explain how diffucult it is to "punish" c-logger yet alone identify them clearly. I guess you won't be very satisfied to loose your ship just because neighbour's dog peed on your landline. ;)

I don't think they should punish cloggers, they should make clogging pointless. For instance: instadeath on connection loss (for whatever reason) while in combat. They could call it "unexpected power plant malfunction" or anything like that. Yeah it would suck to face the rebuy screen for such a random reason, but rebuys are peanuts these days, and at least everyone would know you had a connection problem and no one would call you a clogger. Besides, the game is already full of similar cheesy randomness like the dumb canopy mechanics (losing canopy 10 seconds after the first shield drop, on 80+ hull, anyone?), packhound spamming and especially desync rams.

BTW I have a pretty mediocre connection, I can see Mauve(?) Adder errors ("IP address changed mid session") pretty often. I've always had these errors, they only seem to be more frequent since the September Update. Maybe it's my ISP, and my IP address actually changes sometimes. Yet it never once happened during a fight (so far), which is lucky I guess, as I really don't want to appear a clogger. I'd rather lose my ship.
 
Last edited:
I don't think they should punish cloggers, they should make clogging pointless. For instance: instadeath on connection loss (for whatever reason) while in combat. They could call it "unexpected power plant malfunction" or anything like that. Yeah it would suck to face the rebuy screen for such a random reason, but rebuys are peanuts these days, and at least everyone knew you had a connection problem and no one would call you a clogger. Besides, the game is already full of similar cheesy randomness like the dumb canopy mechanics (losing canopy 10 seconds after the first shield drop, on 80+ hull, anyone?) or packhound spamming.

BTW I have a pretty mediocre connection, I can see Mauve(?) Adder errors ("IP address changed mid session") pretty often. I've always had these errors, they only seem to be more frequent since the September Update. Maybe it's my ISP, and my IP address actually changes sometimes. Yet it never once happened during a fight (so far), which is lucky I guess, as I really don't want to appear a clogger. I'd rather lose my ship.
Referring to Biff Stryker's post: Loosing one ship from time to time, okay, you can get over with. What if it rains and Biff looses 6 ships within an hour? I would be VERY upset and ragequit.🤷‍♀️
 
Referring to Biff Stryker's post: Loosing one ship from time to time, okay, you can get over with. What if it rains and Biff looses 6 ships within an hour? I would be VERY upset and ragequit.🤷‍♀️

Yeah I can see the problem, my Mauve Adders don't seem to happen more often than once a day (maybe once every couple of days). But several times within a few hours because it's raining? It would really suck. I definitely wouldn't play in Open on those days.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom