Notice A statement on cheating in Elite Dangerous.

[ryan_m]

What I have a problem with (and this may just be me) is people exaggerating how prevalent and how bad FDev are about it.

There is no personal attack from me here, so why do you feel the need to attack me?

FDev have stated (perhaps its just a boiler plate but it is still a statement) they care and are doing something about it , and there are bans reported by various outlets that support their statement. Its ok if thats not to your standard but to imply they are doing nothing is deceitful and just as bad as cheating, and can have as detrimental an effect as the cheats.

They have been repeatedly bad about handling cheating in their game. Combat logging persisted for 4 years before it finally started getting punished and my group specifically tested FDev two separate times 2 years apart and the result was the same: no action taken. We know for a fact what the punishment is for hacking in Elite: 3 day ban, 1 month ban, solo. You can cheat 3 times before you get the same consequence handed out by any other developer of an online MMO. This is, of course, assuming they can even detect cheating and it's pretty apparent that they can't considering the prevalence since the discussion started. The one I specifically wrote about is still undetected with no one having received bans.

It's cool if you think the 3 strikes rule is enough because the punishment ultimately doesn't matter if they can't even detect the behavior. We can discuss punishment once they start actually catching people.

 

[00nutzy]

It's cool if you think the 3 strikes rule is enough because the punishment ultimately doesn't matter if they can't even detect the behavior. We can discuss punishment once they start actually catching people.

They do catch people (and I am not referring to the slot blocking video) the makers of the trainer even post about it. Are you calling them liars as well? Shoot you even list the punishments handed out so you must be calling yourself a liar as well (just kidding though).

My whole point is that FDev have made a statement, there is outside verification that cheats are caught.
I believe more should be done but thats not something I know how to do or even how hard it would be to do. I dont make the assumption that an over the counter anti-cheat program would even work with Frontiers code.

The idea of them publishing a list of those caught and punished and their punishment is so far from their long held ideology (no naming and shaming, no discussing of moderation etc) that to expect that is at best a pipe dream.

Of course if you want the game to fail and turn off all new players this is working as intended , yes?

 

[ryan_m]

They do catch people (and I am not referring to the slot blocking video) the makers of the trainer even post about it. Are you calling them liars as well? Shoot you even list the punishments handed out so you must be calling yourself a liar as well (just kidding though).

My whole point is that FDev have made a statement, there is outside verification that cheats are caught.
I believe more should be done but thats not something I know how to do or even how hard it would be to do. I dont make the assumption that an over the counter anti-cheat program would even work with Frontiers code.

The idea of them publishing a list of those caught and punished and their punishment is so far from their long held ideology (no naming and shaming, no discussing of moderation etc) that to expect that is at best a pipe dream.

Of course if you want the game to fail and turn off all new players this is working as intended , yes?

They only get caught when they use very specific parts of the trainer that are marked as likely to get you a warning. The other 90% of the trainer is 100% undetected and the specific one I posted about is completely undetected because FDev haven't changed the client-side checks in 2 years.

Due to my own first-hand experiences with FDev's statements, I do not believe that there is outside verification that cheats are caught. They routinely say one thing but do another when caught in situations like this.

 

[ryan_m]

People are going to assume that this is a simple case of confirmation bias. Can you assure people that this isn't confirmation bias, and can you confirm it with proof.

2016 Investigation

2017 Investigation

First one resulted in a statement from Zac saying that they "didn't follow protocol" in actioning those accounts that were reported. We got feedback from forumites that simply reporting people that clogged on us wasn't enough proof that people weren't punished. Second one was with an account controlled by us that logged multiple times and was reported on the spot. Paige replied saying "guys we totally do review this stuff and appropriate action was taken." No account action was taken against an account that cheated 5 separate times.

 

[RexKraemer]

Cheaters are in every game and will always be there. It's just part of the environment.

1. Ban them all? Useless because they just buy another account and continue cheating which is another revenue stream for FD (even if small there is no downside for FD). No reason to make cheating too difficult since FD make money no matter what and can appear to be taking a strong stance against it.

2. Strong, effective Anti cheats? Never gonna happen because point 1.

Cheating really has minimal impact in Elite Dangerous because of the type of game it is and how dispersed all the players are. There are no competitive leagues with prize money on the line, so no real motivation to keep cheating out.

I've never encountered a cheater in this game in over 3000 hours of playing over 5 years. That is not a problem in my eyes.

By comparison, in PUBG, One in 3 matches I play has a cheater. I get killed regularly by players on the other side of the map that are just standing there firing in all directions. PUBG have banned 13 million confirmed cheaters since mid 2017. And the cheating is still just as rampant. PUBG devs say thay hate cheating, but really, how can they? That is an additional 13 million potential sales of PUBG because cheaters always buy another account. Why do you think game companies have massive discount sales? That is known as a cheater-restock sale. Even if I'm incorrect about the motivations of game companies (and i'm not), the bigger point is, PUBG have banned more accounts in 2 years than have ever played Elite Dangerous and it hasn't helped them at all.

And that pretty much ends the anti-cheat discussion. Get used to cheaters. They have been here since humans have existed and are here to stay.

This is just wrong.

Another example: Dota2 is very competetive, is nearly free of cheating and is free to play. The reason is: frequent updates sometimes several updates a day and VAC (Valve anti-cheating system).

• Dota2 has been the #1 played game (on steam) with about <1M players constantly over years (steam stats, I know, they tell us nothing ;-)
• With PUBG suddenly #1 with > 3M players for a while is now down again to about 500T players
• CS:GO also VAC secured and frequent updates is again constantly at 500T players.

What I see here is that the cheater proofed games have constant player numbers over years and PUBG is dying.
See how many players PUBG is loosing per month: https://steamcharts.com/app/578080
Compare this to CS:GO https://steamcharts.com/app/413850
or Dota2: https://steamcharts.com/app/570

The reason maybe not only cheating in PUBG but the other Battle Royal games like Fortnite, but still, if you like Battle Royal you choose the game where you don't have to expect cheaters.

Sidenote: I know, in all games are cheaters, but the difference is how the developers react on the their existence. This makes a difference in how often you encounter a cheater directly and how the game is viewed at if it comes to the decision on what to play.

I won't get used to cheaters, I choose not to play with cheaters even if I have to play another game, there are plenty of games, all great.

 

[RexKraemer]

The problem with the 3-strike-system is, that it multiplies the effort FDev has with the cheaters by the factor 3.

3 times more effort with something you definitely don't want in the game.
3 times more effort with people who don't care about your effort, Fdev!

 

[ryan_m]

The problem with the 3-strike-system is, that it multiplies the effort FDev has with the cheaters by the factor 3.

3 times more effort with something you definitely don't want in the game.
3 times more effort with people who don't care about your effort, Fdev!

Something else I'm not sure people have considered is that the final punishment still allows people to play the game, so cheat devs only need one banned account to use for cheat development. Develop new modules on the already banned account, look for new checks, then do the final testing on a live one. Cuts the cost of developing cheats significantly.

 

[RexKraemer]

Something else I'm not sure people have considered is that the final punishment still allows people to play the game, so cheat devs only need one banned account to use for cheat development. Develop new modules on the already banned account, look for new checks, then do the final testing on a live one. Cuts the cost of developing cheats significantly.

Very true

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Almost every action to prevent cheating costs Frontier money.

Anyone want to make any side bets?

 

[Troopi]

Oh my... I nedd

This is just wrong.

Another example: Dota2 is very competetive, is nearly free of cheating and is free to play. The reason is: frequent updates sometimes several updates a day and VAC (Valve anti-cheating system).

• Dota2 has been the #1 played game (on steam) with about <1M players constantly over years (steam stats, I know, they tell us nothing ;-)
• With PUBG suddenly #1 with > 3M players for a while is now down again to about 500T players
• CS:GO also VAC secured and frequent updates is again constantly at 500T players.

What I see here is that the cheater proofed games have constant player numbers over years and PUBG is dying.
See how many players PUBG is loosing per month: https://steamcharts.com/app/578080
Compare this to CS:GO https://steamcharts.com/app/413850
or Dota2: https://steamcharts.com/app/570

The reason maybe not only cheating in PUBG but the other Battle Royal games like Fortnite, but still, if you like Battle Royal you choose the game where you don't have to expect cheaters.

Sidenote: I know, in all games are cheaters, but the difference is how the developers react on the their existence. This makes a difference in how often you encounter a cheater directly and how the game is viewed at if it comes to the decision on what to play.

I won't get used to cheaters, I choose not to play with cheaters even if I have to play another game, there are plenty of games, all great.

Just a reminder... ED is not like DOta2, PUBG or CS:GO. Those are pure multiplayer games. ED has solo and private groups too.
Even if ED loses its pvp community, it will still have the others.
I say this not to belittle the pvp community or the cheating problem. It was just a side-note.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I was defining "advertising" along the lines of calling attention to something for the purpose of advocating or selling it. Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, but I'd call what SDC is doing "raising awareness".

But... that is not how language works. At all. If a word has multiple possible meanings and someone uses it correctly in one way, you can't just disagree with it 'because you define it differently'.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

But... that is not how language works. At all. If a word has multiple possible meanings and someone uses it correctly in one way, you can't just disagree with it 'because you define it differently'.

This is the definition of advertising:

This is the definition of advertisement:

SDC is raising awareness of these hacking programs for the express purpose of seeing them eliminated. It's the exact opposite mission as advertising, which is to sell or promote something. It would be like if I made the statement "I just found out that X iPhone app has spyware and should be avoided" and someone interpreted it as me advertising for X iPhone app. I'm not. Not in the slightest.

I'm willing to concede that SDC's calling of attention to hacking in Elite may have the effect of inadvertently advertising it, though the propagation of such remains the fault of those who chose to download and use it.

 

[Ian Skippy]

This is the definition of advertising:

This is the definition of advertisement:

SDC is raising awareness of these hacking programs for the express purpose of seeing them eliminated. It's the exact opposite mission as advertising, which is to sell or promote something. It would be like if I made the statement "I just found out that X iPhone app has spyware and should be avoided" and someone interpreted it as me advertising for X iPhone app. I'm not. Not in the slightest.

I'm willing to concede that SDC's calling of attention to hacking in Elite may have the effect of inadvertently advertising it, though the propagation of such remains the fault of those who chose to download and use it.

I am not sure which part of 'multiple definitions' was unclear. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/advertising

The 'especially' part is optional. Calling something to the attention is the act of advertising. That is what they did, that is what the word could mean. There was nothing wrong with that statement, you have no cause for disagreeing with it. They did set out to bring attention to it, which is what the word could mean. Among other things. Yes, words can often have multiple meanings and if you pick the wrong one a sentence stops making sense or being true. That doesn't make the sentence wrong, it just means you need to expand your vocabulary.

This is very weird.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

I am not sure which part of 'multiple definitions' was unclear. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/advertising

The 'especially' part is optional. Calling something to the attention is the act of advertising. That is what they did, that is what the word could mean. There was nothing wrong with that statement, you have no cause for disagreeing with it. They did set out to bring attention to it, which is what the word could mean. Among other things. Yes, words can often have multiple meanings and if you pick the wrong one a sentence stops making sense or being true. That doesn't make the sentence wrong, it just means you need to expand your vocabulary.

This is very weird.

Yes, I get the impression that we're arguing because we're bored. Consider me buying you a virtual beer, and have a great day!

 

[Northpin]

Raising the awareness has a for the greater good meaning attached to it - at least that's how i see it.
And it would probably be that way if SDC started a reddit campaign against hackers, posting videos and naming and shaming - like they did for combat loggers
But that never happened. Instead we got some blanket statements like "rampart cheating" and "meeting 2-3 cheaters daily during streams"

Advertising imply the intention of promoting something - hence me choosing this term
Because that what was happening.
Look at this nice hack we have here
It has sliders to make your shields stronger or even invulnerable
it has sliders for to make your weapons nastier
it can even change hud color (crowd: awww, fdev told us this is no go)

And guess what, next month this advertisement sold more than 1000 hacks
Compared with the previous average of 30 downloads per month - it is quite a performance.

 

[JetLaGGed]

As far as the whole "cheating only really affects PvP" argument that I saw come up in the thread...It affects everyone. You might not care, but you are affected. I acknowledge that I am affected, I don't really care but that's no reason to be against the problem getting fixed. Get over it. Frontier got themselves into this mess and they would do well to get themselves out of it as soon as they can. Knowing Frontier ("Frontier" being the people that actually have any authority to start the process of fixing the problem) I expect they will keep smoking their cigars and just release Elite Dangerous 2 (which will probably be a dull copypasta of what we have now) when their failures mound up high enough to smother the game.

 

[Morbad]

I expect they will keep smoking their cigars and just release Elite Dangerous 2 (which will probably be a dull copypasta of what we have now) when their failures mound up high enough to smother the game.

Well, as long as this LEP carries over...

 

[ryan_m]

I wanna see your research. How did you come to these numbers?

The publicly available trainer has almost 1600 downloads so he's probably in the ballpark. It's impossible to know how many downloads there are of the private one.

 

[Maeve]

@ryan_m Outdated trainer has nearly 1600 downloads. Current version has 400+.

 

[Northpin]

Let's just hope that SDC's shock therapy will actually make the patient better and stronger and will not let him crippled or a vegetable

@Attack Chimp - regarding proofs, there are counters for the hack downloads. When this started, there where like 300 downloads for the hack
And tell me, how many videos you seen with hackers before May that can support the theory of hacking being prevalent in ED, you know... rampant