Powers do 'self turmoil' occasionally since there is no real mechanism to drop bad systems (and some systems would be impossible to shift ever again), but its like weaponised expansions- its who controls them, and to what end which sorts them into the good / bad bin. Since Power groups are so tight knit, its easy to spot activity outside these norms.
Powerplay A word on 5c, and the state of Powerplay
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Going to want to hold back on the insults buddy. Even if they are indirect.
That's how discussions get locked. I want that, about as much as you do. (clarity edit: not at all).
As for if it's clearly 5C.
I dunno. Is it?
Let's look at the game on the whole just for a second.
So we all play pilots, Commanders who are mercs.
We can "join" factions, PP. But we can never truly. Truly belong to the Militaries of the game.
I am a member of the Alliance Rapid Reaction Corps. the PMF my squadron supports is actually harmful to the only Alliance PP. This by the way I consider to be abjectly stupid. Yet, I am not a true member of the alliance military in game. Despite acting like it.
Powerplay for ... let's be honest for a second ... 95% of the community at least is about the modules. Do your 4 weeks. Buy a tonne of cytoscramblers/prismatics/rapid fire ball throwers/Alliance made coffee heaters... then switch. It's very mercenary.
I myself have been Archon Delain aligned more than twice. Because I really like Cytoscramblers.
Does this make me guity of 5C? Going to something 1541, killing a bunch of feds, handing them in to delain and on thursday buying a dozen or so janky burst lasers?
Did it make it 5C when i did the same for Hudson, collecting a half dozen med range frag cannons? I even partook in PVP for that one when some Imps interdicted me! Learned a fair bit. Copied one of their builds.
was Ok.
You're probably going to accuse me of whataboutism again (and if I am being honest, that just seems like your reaction to anything you do not wish to agree with). But what about BGS where sometimes you have to shoot your own damn side to accomplish anything - like not being forced into a dud expansion, or even to avoid having a desired faction in the system be retreated.
The game is full of lots and lots of really annoying bits like that. Bits which I don't personally believe will ever be fixed.
Ultimately, to complain about only, this one specific thing - right when most of the rest of the PP community decide to gang up on you. I dunno, seems a little disingenuous to be honest.
So to undermine yourselves. You would have to pledge to another faction. Right?
so 5C doesn't break the ToS, so how is exploiting the UI bug to turmoil Mahon "fair play". Will the Federation use the UI bug again if it reappears?
Someone else commented that it was ok for the Feds to exploit the UI bug as all powers were affected by it. All powers are potentially affected by 5C as well, or is that not the case?
It's the intent that makes the difference between company internal hacking for security measures and a Kremlin ordered misinformation campaign.
If i don't understand an argument, I usually ask a question to clarify it. Compulsively trying to put it into differing circumstances is called whataboutism or s***flooding and it's considered acting in the interest of the accused person(s).
That's correct.
Cool.
So you can see where the lines get really, REALLY blurry here. Right? It's not just me I hope.
This is where i'd agree that PP needs a decent rework. Honestly, we all know it needs one so I suppose that's redundant, but in this case. In order to either prune/garden your PP, or to directly assault another in an apparently undefendable-against attack, you need to pledge to another faction.
Which to me sounds really stupid, mechanically speaking.
In order to prevent one. I can't see how you couldn't save the other.
Let alone module shoppers.
I could see where you were going - but no, the line isn't blurry.
5c involves pledging to a power to take actions damaging to that power.
Red-teaming involves pledging to a power to undermine another power's systems.
I agree PP needs a rework... honestly, we all do.
I already answered this earlier I think? The held merits bug has been there since forever and that didn't stop powers from attacking each other. Will you ask the empire this same question? or it's just the federation not allowed to attack while this UI bug is present?
"5c involves pledging to a power to take actions damaging to that power.
Red-teaming involves pledging to a power to undermine another power's systems."
Other way round? Right?
The Feds are the ones known to have taken advantage of this. At least from my perspective. I admit, I find it unlikely that my perspective encompasses the entire truth.
See my comment earlier about observing the same behavior from various factions.
One side makes one accusation.
One side makes another.
Both sides are absolutely sure the other side are guilty of what they are accusing.
Let me put it this way: If you're not hurting the power you're pledged to, then it's not 5C.
Grom and Patreus did some Red Teaming to scrap bad systems recently. I'm pretty sure they would have UM'ed themselves without changing their pledges if the game allowed it, but that's not the case. Red Teaming is widely accepted and it's not a broken mechanic.
As Khan mentioned, powers on all sides have openly taken advantage of this bug over the years. Because we can't predict if or when it will be fixed, we're forced to play with it - lest a major feature of powerplay become unusable for an indefinite amount of time. None of these things are true of 5c.
I'd ask the same question to any power that utilised the held merits bug & then complained about 5C.
Playing the game as it is. not as it should be.
I'd like to thank all the people who have taken the time to add to this thread. It has been very informative & a shout out to the moderators for letting it carry on. It may have meandered along the way but I think the conversation has held its course.
It's a broken mechanic in that you have to literally leave your own power to fix your own power.
Just like leaving your own power to join another power, to hurt said power is also a broken mechanic.
Both are equally broken. Though of course 5C would in this case have far deeper consequences.
Of course, once again. This is a one side making one accusation, one side making another thing.
I'm trying, in this case, to point out what we all know and acknowledge.
The whole house is on fire.
Neither side is innocent at all. It's probably not going to be fixed.
Yet: From my perspective, there is no Imp 5C going on.
Certainly no Alliance. We're all in our own factions, shooting yours.
The Imp side of the debate is that you have a mix of weaponized expansions causing yourselves problems, and the Fed rando brigades patented lack of discipline.
This is important, "at least from my perspective". From my perspective you know just one side of the story, which is understandable by the way. Nothing wrong with that, that's why I'm doing my best to clarify things here.
Absolutely, that was why I typed it to be honest.
I've also done my level best to make it clear that regarding PP I am a casual.
I saw an opportunity to crusade with a squad of my fellows for the Glory of the Alliance. I took it.
Again, we play the game we have. There's no other way to lose bad systems, and it's not a broken mechanic because it doesn't affect other powers. Grom and Patreus obviously agree with what I'm saying.
For clarity, I am not disagreeing here.
I am just stating that it is broken.
A break is a break is a break. The consequences of each break however are more finely quantifiable.
No, but the way I phrased it might be confusing to you.
5c involves pledging yourself to an enemy power to harm that enemy power. From the point of view of that power, it is being harmed by its own commanders.
Red-teaming involves pledging yourself to an enemy power in order to undermine your own power. From the point of view of that power, its commanders are "attacking" an enemy power.
The important thing to remember is that red-teaming abides by the "rules" of engagement Powerplay was designed with. 5c doesn't, as Powerplay wasn't designed with the possibility of internal sabotage in mind (a major oversight, for sure).
And yes, if all of this sounds pretty long-winded and broken, it's because it is. We're just doing the best with what we have.
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