About to think about building a xeno hunter.

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Hi.
I am trying to find a role for my ships. Currently info not fight thargoids (roleplay my CMDR is a bit of a sympathiser due to how my game played out in 1st encounters but I digress ).

He isn't stupid however and wants to be prepared if ever his hand is forced. I am just starting the guardian tech dance.....
My long winded question is, is there any point at all for the original AX weapons or are they all obsolete now and I should just build pure guardian weapon ship.

Many thanks

 

[ZAKALWEINC8876]

Hi.
I am trying to find a role for my ships. Currently info not fight thargoids (roleplay my CMDR is a bit of a sympathiser due to how my game played out in 1st encounters but I digress ).

He isn't stupid however and wants to be prepared if ever his hand is forced. I am just starting the guardian tech dance.....
My long winded question is, is there any point at all for the original AX weapons or are they all obsolete now and I should just build pure guardian weapon ship.

Many thanks

Flak launchers are about the only thing that is non-guardian and useful imo.

Gauss are pretty much essential, get those and you are good to go. Guardian FSD boosters are definatly worth unlocking for general play as well.

Good luck

o7

 

[Jmanis]

Shard cannons are also good anti-shield weapons (equivalent to G5 double-shot screening frags against shields) with no engineering required
Same same for the PP and PD; while not superior to a G5 engineered, is more than acceptable as an out-of-the-box substitute with no mats required.

 

[Mgram]

Shard cannons are also good anti-shield weapons (equivalent to G5 double-shot screening frags against shields) with no engineering required
Same same for the PP and PD; while not superior to a G5 engineered, is more than acceptable as an out-of-the-box substitute with no mats required.

Shard cannons are not worth having for AX builds as they have a few fatal flaws. Such as:

1. Shotgun Spread (You must be very close for all shard-pellets to hit the target for full damage. (~800m) Which places you within range of the Thargoid Lightning attack.)
2. Armour Penetration (Low AP means that it only deals full effective damage up to cyclops variants, and dealing less and less with the harder Thargoids)
3. Non-Hitscan (Unlike the Gauss, requires leading the target, creating more opporutnities for lost DPS.)
4. Irrelevant (Thargoid Shields actively decay on their own, you can kill perectly easily without dealing any shield damage at all)

For AX, I wouldnt recommend the Shards to anyone... For Non-AX I guess?

 

[ZAKALWEINC8876]

Shard cannons are not worth having for AX builds as they have a few fatal flaws. Such as:

1. Shotgun Spread (You must be very close for all shard-pellets to hit the target for full damage. (~800m) Which places you within range of the Thargoid Lightning attack.)
2. Armour Penetration (Low AP means that it only deals full effective damage up to cyclops variants, and dealing less and less with the harder Thargoids)
3. Non-Hitscan (Unlike the Gauss, requires leading the target, creating more opporutnities for lost DPS.)
4. Irrelevant (Thargoid Shields actively decay on their own, you can kill perectly easily without dealing any shield damage at all)

For AX, I wouldnt recommend the Shards to anyone... For Non-AX I guess?

If two or more people in a wing have 4 shard cannons each then a cyclops takes seconds to blow up if you do it correctly.

It's not really my bag, and i get where you are coming from but they do have uses imo.*

* I realise i am contradicting my earlier post lol

o7

 

[Dr. Nagi]

Shard cannons are not worth having for AX builds as they have a few fatal flaws. Such as:

1. Shotgun Spread (You must be very close for all shard-pellets to hit the target for full damage. (~800m) Which places you within range of the Thargoid Lightning attack.)
2. Armour Penetration (Low AP means that it only deals full effective damage up to cyclops variants, and dealing less and less with the harder Thargoids)
3. Non-Hitscan (Unlike the Gauss, requires leading the target, creating more opporutnities for lost DPS.)
4. Irrelevant (Thargoid Shields actively decay on their own, you can kill perectly easily without dealing any shield damage at all)

For AX, I wouldnt recommend the Shards to anyone... For Non-AX I guess?

You really need to get your duck pic in here
On that note I need to change my avatar as well...

 

[Mgram]

You really need to get your duck pic in here
On that note I need to change my avatar as well...

Happy?

 

[Bigmaec]

Hi.
I am trying to find a role for my ships. Currently info not fight thargoids (roleplay my CMDR is a bit of a sympathiser due to how my game played out in 1st encounters but I digress ).

He isn't stupid however and wants to be prepared if ever his hand is forced. I am just starting the guardian tech dance.....
My long winded question is, is there any point at all for the original AX weapons or are they all obsolete now and I should just build pure guardian weapon ship.

Many thanks

You got me thinking and I want to be prepared for the next Thargoid war, too.

So I spent 400 million space-bucks on a guardian enhanced Anaconda to shred thargoid scouts.
It's only moderately engineered...

Coriolis EDCD Edition

A ship builder, outfitting and comparison tool for Elite Dangerous

s.orbis.zone

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Nice. Have you tried it against hydra etc?

Thanks.

 

[Bigmaec]

Nice. Have you tried it against hydra etc?

Thanks.

Nah, it will at most stand up against a cyclops, and I'm not even sure I can do that.
Will try later though.

 

[Mgram]

Nah, it will at most stand up against a cyclops, and I'm not even sure I can do that.
Will try later though.

This build is brilliant at hunting scouts, and its pretty much a perfect scout farming anaconda...

This build will struggle with anything above a Cyclops, moslty due to Armour Penetration. The Armour Rating goes up with each Thargoid, however the AXMC does marginal Penetration, even on the basilisk it will be very difficult to destroy a single heart with AXMC's.

As for the Other multicannons, they will do literally zero damage to a Thargoid Interceptor, as interceptors have a 99% resistance to normal Human weapons.

In order to make a build like this functional for taking on a Thargoid Interceptors, I would equip 4x Medium Gauss Cannons, 1-2x Remote Release Flak Launchers.

Here is a proper AX Interceptor Hunting Anaconda Build: https://s.orbis.zone/396w

 

[Bigmaec]

This build is brilliant at hunting scouts, and its pretty much a perfect scout farming anaconda...

This build will struggle with anything above a Cyclops, moslty due to Armour Penetration. The Armour Rating goes up with each Thargoid, however the AXMC does marginal Penetration, even on the basilisk it will be very difficult to destroy a single heart with AXMC's.

As for the Other multicannons, they will do literally zero damage to a Thargoid Interceptor, as interceptors have a 99% resistance to normal Human weapons.

In order to make a build like this functional for taking on a Thargoid Interceptors, I would equip 4x Medium Gauss Cannons, 1-2x Remote Release Flak Launchers.

Here is a proper AX Interceptor Hunting Anaconda Build: https://s.orbis.zone/396w

I know. I just tested it against a Cyclops to be sure, but I barely got one heart down.

It mows through scouts like a hot knife through butter though

 

[Mgram]

I just tested it against a Cyclops to be sure, but I barely got one heart down.

Yup, once you get onto the Guardian Gauss you will see its like Night and Day in terms of DPS difference.

The Shards and Chargers are both also pretty terrible, unfortunately they have far to low Armour Penetration and a few other nasty tradeoffs (ie: Dropoff Range for shards is within lightning range, Plasmas are terrible for aiming and generate colossal heat, etc)

In terms of your Anaconda build, although they are plenty good enough for scouts, the Guardian Powerplant and Guardian Power Distributor are essentially direct downgrades to their engineered human counterparts. Although you will get by just fine for scouts (and I admit its nice to not engineer another two modules), should you want to jump up to interceptors I would look into swapping them for engineered equivalents, they will perform better, with higher integrity and lower heat (Heat itself being a critical factor in AX Interceptor combat).

By keeping a ship below a certain heat level (approx 20%) you can completely avoid many mechanics and abilities from the Thargoid Interceptors (even the scouts have trouble hitting you). For example, if you stay below 20% after the second-last heart of any interceptor, until the swarm deploys, you will completely avoid the EMP mechanic, it won't even occur!

Nevertheless, good luck on getting a cyclops!

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

despite knowing that they are bad, being implemented by a intern who had no idea what he was doing -
how would Sturdy Advanced Multicannons with Autoloader do in this meta?

i know their Penetration would only reach 35(small) /59 (med) , but with higher range and precision then shards.

Advanced Missile Launcher are still sold, but no ammo synthesis - and their armor pen would probably still suck compared to competitors

 

[Bigmaec]

Yup, once you get onto the Guardian Gauss you will see its like Night and Day in terms of DPS difference.

The Shards and Chargers are both also pretty terrible, unfortunately they have far to low Armour Penetration and a few other nasty tradeoffs (ie: Dropoff Range for shards is within lightning range, Plasmas are terrible for aiming and generate colossal heat, etc)

In terms of your Anaconda build, although they are plenty good enough for scouts, the Guardian Powerplant and Guardian Power Distributor are essentially direct downgrades to their engineered human counterparts. Although you will get by just fine for scouts (and I admit its nice to not engineer another two modules), should you want to jump up to interceptors I would look into swapping them for engineered equivalents, they will perform better, with higher integrity and lower heat (Heat itself being a critical factor in AX Interceptor combat).

By keeping a ship below a certain heat level (approx 20%) you can completely avoid many mechanics and abilities from the Thargoid Interceptors (even the scouts have trouble hitting you). For example, if you stay below 20% after the second-last heart of any interceptor, until the swarm deploys, you will completely avoid the EMP mechanic, it won't even occur!

Nevertheless, good luck on getting a cyclops!

I'm registered AXI pilot with confirmed cyclops kills, just saying
I've been fighting the 'goids since before the Oracle was first attacked.

 

[Raino]

I'm registered AXI pilot with confirmed cyclops kills, just saying
I've been fighting the 'goids since before the Oracle was first attacked.

me too, but I only got killed a couple times

 

[Mgram]

despite knowing that they are bad, being implemented by a intern who had no idea what he was doing -
how would Sturdy Advanced Multicannons with Autoloader do in this meta?

i know their Penetration would only reach 35(small) /59 (med) , but with higher range and precision then shards.

Advanced Missile Launcher are still sold, but no ammo synthesis - and their armor pen would probably still suck compared to competitors

I mean it might do a bit more damage than some AX Multicannons, don't really know tbh I havent run the numbers. It would probably work fine for scouts and maybe a cyclops, but with that kinda AP you will really struggle to do much to a Basilisk or higher. For a Medusa or Hydra you may aswell be using a water pistol...

Not to mention the whole ammunition issue, since it doesn't actually do any AX damage until you equip it with the 'premium' synths in the first place. This is something that I would consider a deal-breaker if I was farming scouts for combat exp, since it would likely slow down the grind significantly just to restock the synths.

The only real place I can see those in the Meta is for someone who wants to have a PvE ship that can take on some scouts in the spare time if they simply synth the ammo. Beyond that its very hard to justify bringing them over some Gauss.... or even AXMCs for scouts.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

I mean it might do a bit more damage than some AX Multicannons, don't really know tbh I havent run the numbers. It would probably work fine for scouts and maybe a cyclops, but with that kinda AP you will really struggle to do much to a Basilisk or higher. For a Medusa or Hydra you may aswell be using a water pistol...

Not to mention the whole ammunition issue, since it doesn't actually do any AX damage until you equip it with the 'premium' synths in the first place. This is something that I would consider a deal-breaker if I was farming scouts for combat exp, since it would likely slow down the grind significantly just to restock the synths.

The only real place I can see those in the Meta is for someone who wants to have a PvE ship that can take on some scouts in the spare time if they simply synth the ammo. Beyond that its very hard to justify bringing them over some Gauss.... or even AXMCs for scouts.

just crunching the numbers i got on paper (since neither EDSY nor Coriolis seems to care about AX combat), against a medusa (228 hardness), i need 50 Adv. Multicannon-hits (with the mods mentioned) to do the same damage a single Gauss hit does. with its RoF, that means 5 seconds on Time on Target .
but then... gauss only has a breach damage of 50%, while the adv. Multis have 90% -> don't know how that comes into play when used against hearts...

i wouldn't even consider using synth ammo on scouts, as they are easily fried by gimbal lasers, so im only considering those vs. interceptors.
and AFAIK, Synthing Ammo is also necessary vs. higher interceptors with the gauss.

 

[Mgram]

just crunching the numbers i got on paper (since neither EDSY nor Coriolis seems to care about AX combat), against a medusa (228 hardness), i need 50 Adv. Multicannon-hits (with the mods mentioned) to do the same damage a single Gauss hit does. with its RoF, that means 5 seconds on Time on Target .
but then... gauss only has a breach damage of 50%, while the adv. Multis have 90% -> don't know how that comes into play when used against hearts...

i wouldn't even consider using synth ammo on scouts, as they are easily fried by gimbal lasers, so im only considering those vs. interceptors.
and AFAIK, Synthing Ammo is also necessary vs. higher interceptors with the gauss.

Few different things to consider here, if we are using the numbers you have.

Time on Target
Assuming you take 50 rounds to deal the same amount of damage as a single gauss, over 5 sec. With 4 Gauss I can fire off AT LEAST 3x Full volleys in the same 5 sec window. Putting the Gauss already at least 3x Higher DPS simply from base fire-rate.

Time on target is also relying on your positioninig being Ideal, as with Gauss you can dump all that damage instantaneously, whereas the MC you must maintain a good position, angle and every projectile MUST be hitting on target. This is a bit harder with a multi-cannon style weapon which hase some projectile scatter involved as-well.

Gauss meanwhile gives the significant benefit of only needing to be in the correct range/angle/on-target for the moment of firing. Hitscan is just ridiculously OP by comparison.

Effective DPS after AR
See the Below chart, 100.Rub (our spreadsheet overlord) got bcak to me with the details on Effective DPS after AR and Effective SDPS after AR, Im hoping the numbers mostly speak for themselves. Although the AdvMC may have higher DPS on paper, once you include the actual effective DPS after AR it becomes a different story. The AR on Gauss is so ridiculously high that it simply avoids this issue entirely.

Now with some other engineering options you may get slightly different DPS results, in the case below, Rapidfire Oversize and Overcharged Oversize will just beat out Gauss on DPS, however this only applies for Cyclops and immediately falls behind for basilisk.

Regarding breach damage, this does not seem to have any noticable effect on heart damage.

Synths

AFAIK, Synthing Ammo is also necessary vs. higher interceptors with the gauss.

All goids can be done purely on standard gauss ammo with no real loss. It is 100% possible to solo Medusa without a single Gauss synth aswell, I have done this myself. Hydra require only basic synths simply due to ammo limits. Premium synths are only a luxury to speed things up.

Side note: Though im sure you are aware of scouts 77% resistance to human weapons, of course gimbal lasers would be a relatively slow way to kill them.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

...
Regarding breach damage, this does not seem to have any noticable effect on heart damage.

Synths

All goids can be done purely on standard gauss ammo with no real loss. It is 100% possible to solo Medusa without a single Gauss synth aswell, I have done this myself. Hydra require only basic synths simply due to ammo limits. Premium synths are only a luxury to speed things up.

Side note: Though im sure you are aware of scouts 77% resistance to human weapons, of course gimbal lasers would be a relatively slow way to kill them.

• thanks for the spreadsheet - seems to confirm my math, that the Adv. MCs with the right engineering can have ~50% effective DPS of the Gauss, even against the higher threat targets, which makes them at least 300% better then same size AX MCs that can not be engineered for whatever reason.
• Looking at that second spreadsheet also shows that its a pitty that Adv. Dumbfire Missiles are lacking their synthesis recipe ingame (at least i haven't found it yet)
• i do agree that having to use the censored synthesis materials to have them do this is not the best part of them.
• Breach damage HAS to have a noticeable effect on heart damage, when you consider how AX missiles got hit with the nerf-hammer (breach damage reduced to 1), and since then can't damage hearts.
• so last but not least - i was killing scouts pretty fast with my beam corvette... faster then with any AX or Guardian weapons, simply because my lazyness to retrofit them into my pve-Build.