Allow the VR '2D screen' to be disabled?

[VR Dextrovix]

The Alien Isolation example is exactly what I'd like to have in Odyssey using K&M or controller too.

I reckon the old runtime Creative Assembly used in Alien Isolation is only marginally older than FDev's, going by the lack of development in VR, post release of ED...

 

[willisit]

+1 here too; a simple Alien implementation would work for me. 2D projection is at least something, but I guess, using VR, there's plenty of games now that offer you "blink, dash and regular perambulation", so if it's specifically only the latter, I'll deal with it (I love SRVs and don't get sick so it's probably only for the strong of stomach).

Lots of "Warning! This will make you vom!" notices I expect

 

[VR Golgot]

+1 here too; a simple Alien implementation would work for me. 2D projection is at least something, but I guess, using VR, there's plenty of games now that offer you "blink, dash and regular perambulation", so if it's specifically only the latter, I'll deal with it (I love SRVs and don't get sick so it's probably only for the strong of stomach).

Lots of "Warning! This will make you vom!" notices I expect

Just as an early 'Warning!' warning, I wouldn't expect an Alien:Isolation tier experience if they do this.

There's a lot more goes into porting a game to VR than just the VR render etc. And we're not asking for much more than that here.

The AI: MotherVR mod is itself built upon an existing prototype by the game's makers that remained in the game files. So in total it has a fair bit of functionality and QoL built into it.

 

[willisit]

Just as an early 'Warning!' warning, I wouldn't expect an Alien:Isolation tier experience if they do this.

There's a lot more goes into porting a game to VR than just the VR render etc. And we're not asking for much more than that here.

The AI: MotherVR mod is itself built upon an existing prototype by the game's makers that remained in the game files. So in total it has a fair bit of functionality and QoL built into it.

Indeed. I played that at EGX before it was... EGX, then had it on my DK2 before it was removed in the retail version. I just meant a basic WASD version that's 3D but without the "extra" stuff that would be a problem (i.e. 2D people running about the show vs VR people having to "dash", which would never work). Maybe more akin to a working, supported mod like Doom 3 BFG or whatnot.

 

[VR Golgot]

Indeed. I played that at EGX before it was... EGX, then had it on my DK2 before it was removed in the retail version. I just meant a basic WASD version that's 3D but without the "extra" stuff that would be a problem (i.e. 2D people running about the show vs VR people having to "dash", which would never work). Maybe more akin to a working, supported mod like Doom 3 BFG or whatnot.

Cool

But I wouldn't compare what we're asking for here to any mod. Most mods have added QoL/features that we wouldn't get, if FDev were to do this. It'd be a lot rougher than MotherVR. A lot rougher than BFG-VR.

Body tracking, UI proximity, free look. All of it might be a total mess. And more.

I'm just trying to set expectations . The idea here is just to peel back that onion layer and see what that game's like with the VR view but nigh zero other dev work done. (And then see if we can fix it up further, in ways which sit within the ToS. IE play with the UI turned off, add free headlook with 3rd party tools, stuff like that. I'm sure motivated EDVR heads can come up with some solutions to a few of the major issues we'd doubtless encounter )

 

[willisit]

I was actually agreeing. I'm saying, "just VR" in terms of what we see, but the rest would mimic 2D. Hence WASD, just let us deal with the the comfort issues of we so wish.
I saw VorpX was mentioned. Just enabling stereoscopic visuals and the rest be damned until it was established.

 

[Sirlance]

I'm happy to +1 this idea, but I dunno, FDEV really don't appear to give a crap about anything VR related anymore. Look how much it took for us to actually get them to consider adding what we're going to get, which when all said and done, takes the absolute minimum of effort on their part. The Legs projection might not even be with 3D depth on the flatscreen we'll have from our VR cockpit, that's how basic I'm hoping it isn't!

I'd love a dev to confirm that development using VR is still under consideration and being worked on, but considering the Greg business, I again dunno, I think we'll be lucky if when we try Legs VR out in alpha, they'll be something very wrong because until we report it, nobody at FDEV actually tested it further than bunging it on the code they've already got from the Horizons build.

Sceptical and cynical since the Odyssey announcement? Yep...

Would I like FDEV to prove me wrong, yes, absolutely!

I'll be happy just to be able to look around in VR while on foot, even if I'm using a mouse and keyboard or controller, I understand this game was not set up for motion controllers and that's fine. But they have to realize they do have one of the best VR games on the market, this was the game that brought me to VR, I picked up a DK2 specifically for this game and have since upgraded to a vive pro, I've bought a HOTAS, a buttkicker, a flight stand, voice attack with 3 HCS voice packs, I've purchased ARX. As a VR only player I'm hoping they'll at least add VR as an option to the first person character.

 

[Sirlance]

Cool

But I wouldn't compare what we're asking for here to any mod. Most mods have added QoL/features that we wouldn't get, if FDev were to do this. It'd be a lot rougher than MotherVR. A lot rougher than BFG-VR.

Body tracking, UI proximity, free look. All of it might be a total mess. And more.

I'm just trying to set expectations . The idea here is just to peel back that onion layer and see what that game's like with the VR view but nigh zero other dev work done. (And then see if we can fix it up further, in ways which sit within the ToS. IE play with the UI turned off, add free headlook with 3rd party tools, stuff like that. I'm sure motivated EDVR heads can come up with some solutions to a few of the major issues we'd doubtless encounter )

I am not a developer at all but I have attached a VR camera to a standard avatar using both unity and unreal engine, it's not hard at all, then I just used the mouse and keyboard to move. If a plumber can do it, I truly hope a professional team could as well.

 

[VR Golgot]

I am not a developer at all but I have attached a VR camera to a standard avatar using both unity and unreal engine, it's not hard at all, then I just used the mouse and keyboard to move. If a plumber can do it, I truly hope a professional team could as well.

Oh for sure that could be easy. But none of this is about the dev for VR Legs being difficult precisely. It's about FDev not dedicating resources to VR Legs right now.

So this is designed to be as close to a zero-dev request as possible, to fit in with that policy, but still get us something for launch

Even 'dev assigned to hook camera to avatar' isn't guaranteed...

 

[heathenlamb]

It's a great idea, I am in for anything to further the FPS on foot VR cause. But let's face it, just implement full VR support for legs. I get the premise of making it as less work as possible for the dev team, but I am not a fan of band aid solutions that may potentially delay the full conversion.

 

[VR Golgot]

It's a great idea, I am in for anything to further the FPS on foot VR cause. But let's face it, just implement full VR support for legs. I get the premise of making it as less work as possible for the dev team, but I am not a fan of band aid solutions that may potentially delay the full conversion.

Cheers

The way I see it is:

• They're super clear that they're not going to put meaningful dev resources into VR Legs for launch. See stuff like this:

...our VR plans are still as we've stated with full integration a possibility in the future but unconfirmed.

However, we do strongly believe that VR should only be enabled for on foot gameplay when we have an experience that truly matches the same quality bar that we set for cockpits.

I'm really glad that we did add VR support because it's pretty awesome, it is quite an experience. Being able to run around on foot, though, is very much a different experience. We're still looking at the way that we would tackle that if we need to. Or if we decide that we think we can get a good way of doing it. And sure, like, that's something that we'll tackle, but for the moment, we have to focus on the actual main experience and getting that working the way that we really want it to feel. So on day one, there won't be any VR support. But we're not saying never, it's just we need to focus our efforts elsewhere right now. Luke Betterton - Game Designer

• Only suggestions that tally with that level of resourcing are likely to get anywhere for now.

This suggestion wouldn't delay a full conversion, in that sense. But it could possibly be do-able with current resourcing. Or encourage FDev to explore other 'win-win' / 'low resource' solutions that provide a bit of fan service in the meantime

Worth a shot ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[Sirlance]

Oh for sure that could be easy. But none of this is about the dev for VR Legs being difficult precisely. It's about FDev not dedicating resources to VR Legs right now.

So this is designed to be as close to a zero-dev request as possible, to fit in with that policy, but still get us something for launch

Even 'dev assigned to hook camera to avatar' isn't guaranteed...

I love the game so i'll just deal with what they come up with but I will continue to voice my opinion in the hopes they hear

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Those launches are dedicated FPS games. Elite is first and foremost a space sim. I for one do not want to get out of my chair or switch to motion controllers to transit to on foot gameplay as this would be quite a hassle

This is a bit of a red herring. You are artificially underestimating the VR share of the ED market through two effects:

• A larger number of VR users are likely to have or be interested in ED than the typical Steam user.
• VR users are on average likely to have a higher disposable income just by the fact that they have been able to afford investing into VR.

Because of this, you really cannot just look at the Steam VR ownership numbers and draw this conclusion. I'm not saying that the spending numbers are going to turn things completely around, just that the ownership number on its own is quite irrelevant.

This is the actual argument. It seems unlikely that FDev is going to change things around for Odyssey release at this point. Doesn't mean we can't have an opinion about it.

Very much this! Everything you've said there is something I've bounced of the king of the strawmen before. I honestly think this last suggestion thread done us more harm than good, it listed virtual flatscreen as a request. Now we are trying to push for middle of the road, not Elite:Alyx nor virtual flatscreen, the king goes on about business case, I had recently number-crunched such a thing and when I psoted it here I get told that we've had that argument numerous times before, and I still hadn't cited a FPS game with VR without hand controllers. And you know what, I dont fracking care, Elite is not doom, quake or team fracking fortress, it is as you so rightly said primarily a (space) vehicle game, with some first person sprinkles on top, perhaps we should ask him where the FPS games are with interstellar travel, 3 vehicle types, rpg loot and craft, 3dimensional strategic risk like gameplay?

In theory we pitched for a VR alpha build with the prior 'experimental branch' thread. At least for one in parallel with launch.

Have you never heard of be careful what you wish for, you said virtual flatscreen was acceptable, and you got it. And you torpedo posts that could have helped you in this thread. You even cite the pancaker's trope about 2% of steam players, rather than the third of respondents to a survey on reddit, or ~40% of CMDR Exegius's survey? Man, I understand "seeing from the otherside's perspective" I've even written empath canvases and back of evelope forum post business cases for that very reason, then you strawman that with comments like "why haven't you shown me a quake type game with VR headlook but without motion controllers?" Truthfully I don't get you, but I'm beginning find your belligerence somewhat irritating now.

The Alien Isolation example is exactly what I'd like to have in Odyssey using K&M or controller too.

I reckon the old runtime Creative Assembly used in Alien Isolation is only marginally older than FDev's, going by the lack of development in VR, post release of ED...

Yeah me too

+1 here too; a simple Alien implementation would work for me. 2D projection is at least something, but I guess, using VR, there's plenty of games now that offer you "blink, dash and regular perambulation", so if it's specifically only the latter, I'll deal with it (I love SRVs and don't get sick so it's probably only for the strong of stomach).

Lots of "Warning! This will make you vom!" notices I expect

I cannot think of complete sentences to accurately describe how I think VR as 2d reprojection will actually work that won't trigger the swear filter.

I am not a developer at all but I have attached a VR camera to a standard avatar using both unity and unreal engine, it's not hard at all, then I just used the mouse and keyboard to move. If a plumber can do it, I truly hope a professional team could as well.

Halleluja! So, if a plumber can teach themselves to do that, and do that from the outside of the game looking in. So tell me, do you think it's possible that VR headlook is something that a small team of professional developers who have full access to the games internals could migrate from one mode of gameplay to another mode of gameplay within the same game? And if so, do you think they could do that in a reasonably cost efficient manner that even if there were only ten thousand copies of the game that would be bought it could be profitable for the company to sanction such a course of action?

Spoiler: My back of an envelope business case

I don't know why you don't see how this is indeed a negotiation? It's almost a reverse randsom demand, I'm holding my debit card hostage, if they want my money, they have to acquiesce to my requested feature, if they add VR headlook on foot, I'll release my hostages, namely the scheckles used for buying the game. It might sound a bit narcisstic or grandiose to think that I, as one bearded imperial renegade boxhead, could make a hundred million pound company change their mind, but if you follow the numbers, and remember that I'm not the only nutter who wants this feature, and apply some deductive reasoning, you'll see that it could happen.

Even if Virtual flatscreen when on foot actually is the best solution for 80% of VR players, given a reddit survey suggested around a third of Elite players, slightly more than a third IIRC, (who also use that subreddit, and took part in that survey) use VR. Rounding numbers to simplify the verbal arithmetic that is about to follow, leaves approximately 24% of all Elite players satisfied with the virtual flatscreen solution, with ~10% of the player base not completely satisfied by it. I don't think its worth interrupting the flow of the conversation for a couple of percentage points one way or the other, but if you want to indulge in pedantry it is 26.4% and 6.66% satisfied/dissatisfied by virtual flatscreen.

Circa 10% of the player base, is a big number, it's a lot of people to leave dissatisfied. But how many actual people is that? With the game having around 4 million copies sold, to more accurately calculate the customer base, lets half the copies sold are alts to arbitrarily compensate for some players with multiple alt accounts, and average that against those who don't have any alts, again, for easiness of working with round numbers let's call it 2 a nice round million customers? Ten percent of those two million customers who would be dissatisfied with a version of Odyssey that has only a virtual flatscreen view mode when on foot, is two hundred thousand customers who, at £30 a copy, represent a large amount of potential revenue, £6m to be exact. Surely that's six million reasons to pursue implementing VR headlook on foot?

Even if a half of the dissatisfied / not completely satisfied players still buy Odyssey despite their grumblings about virtual flatscreen, or had already bought it as part of a lifetime pass, and "only" the other half of the people who resent the lack of VR headlook on foot take my standpoint that "no VR headlook on foot Frontier means no purchase from me", based on the numbers used in this paragraph, that's still three million pounds of lost Odyssey sales.

Even tweaking those numbers further to "support the case against" the commercial need for implementing VR headlook on foot, let's say it wasn't a third, but a quarter of respondents who said they play in VR, and 90% of them were happy with virtual flatscreen. If VR players represent a quarter of the two million customers, that gives us half a million "boxheads". From that half million, 10% of them are taking my stance and "voting with their wallet" regarding VR headlook on foot in Odyssey, that's fifty thousand customers, at £30 a copy, ergo we still represent one and a half million pounds of lost revenue.

Now, how expensive did we say it would be to add VR headlook when on foot? To my mind at least, even if some, or all of the potential technical hurdles of implementing VR headlook that have been raised in this thread need to be addressed and overcome, it's still unlikely that it would not be a worthwhile undertaking from the company's point of view.

And what if it were fifty thousand copies of the game? OR two hundred thousand copies?

 

[Sirlance]

Very much this! Everything you've said there is something I've bounced of the king of the strawmen before. I honestly think this last suggestion thread done us more harm than good, it listed virtual flatscreen as a request. Now we are trying to push for middle of the road, not Elite:Alyx nor virtual flatscreen, the king goes on about business case, I had recently number-crunched such a thing and when I psoted it here I get told that we've had that argument numerous times before, and I still hadn't cited a FPS game with VR without hand controllers. And you know what, I dont fracking care, Elite is not doom, quake or team fracking fortress, it is as you so rightly said primarily a (space) vehicle game, with some first person sprinkles on top, perhaps we should ask him where the FPS games are with interstellar travel, 3 vehicle types, rpg loot and craft, 3dimensional strategic risk like gameplay?

Have you never heard of be careful what you wish for, you said virtual flatscreen was acceptable, and you got it. And you torpedo posts that could have helped you in this thread. You even cite the pancaker's trope about 2% of steam players, rather than the third of respondents to a survey on reddit, or ~40% of CMDR Exegius's survey? Man, I understand "seeing from the otherside's perspective" I've even written empath canvases and back of evelope forum post business cases for that very reason, then you strawman that with comments like "why haven't you shown me a quake type game with VR headlook but without motion controllers?" Truthfully I don't get you, but I'm beginning find your belligerence somewhat irritating now.

Yeah me too

I cannot think of complete sentences to accurately describe how I think VR as 2d reprojection will actually work that won't trigger the swear filter.

Halleluja! So, if a plumber can teach themselves to do that, and do that from the outside of the game looking in. So tell me, do you think it's possible that VR headlook is something that a small team of professional developers who have full access to the games internals could migrate from one mode of gameplay to another mode of gameplay within the same game in a reasonably cost efficient manner that even if there were only ten thousand copies of the game that would be bought it could be profitable for the company to sanction such a course of action?

And what if it were fifty thousand copies of the game? OR two hundred thousand copies?

As a VR only user not only have I pre-purchased the deluxe Odyssey alpha version, I've purchased Arx, ship paint jobs...etc so they are making more money other than just game sales and if this game continues to update and provide content, I'll continue to support them with future purchases but if they abandon the the one thing that brought me to this game ..VR, then i will not be as inclined to buy Arx, skins...etc I'm 51, a Co. owner, I have the money to burn on game for my entertainment and there are lots of other people like me. I can live with the projected 2d screen thing for first person but I'd like them to at least try to implement VR to the legs portion of the game, fortunately the modding community exists and maybe someone will add it for them.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

As a VR only user not only have I pre-purchased the deluxe Odyssey alpha version, I've purchased Arx, ship paint jobs...etc so they are making more money other than just game sales and if this game continues to update and provide content, I'll continue to support them with future purchases but if they abandon the the one thing that brought me to this game ..VR, then i will not be as inclined to buy Arx, skins...etc I'm 51, a Co. owner, I have the money to burn on game for my entertainment and there are lots of other people like me. I can live with the projected 2d screen thing for first person but I'd like them to at least try to implement VR to the legs portion of the game, fortunately the modding community exists and maybe someone will add it for them.

I bought arx as a thank you for the step they made by including some VR, like you I have the disposable income itching to be monetized in this game, but I am firmly voting with my wallet and have not bought the pre-order expansion specifically because it does not include VR-stereo-headlook. I also said thank you for adding some VR, and did so as the first post with my current signature:
"THANK YOU FOR ADDING VR TO ODYSSEY!!!
But be advised - we will want proper VR 3D Head-look not virtual flatscreen in the future..."

It's interesting to hear you cite having money to burn on gaming in this thread, as in the original VR war there was a lot of people saying "Frontier doesn't make money off your VR purchases", to which I countered that I'd never cited my hardware expenditure as the reason they should include VR moving forward, but if I am in the position to spend significant money on a VR headset and high end graphics card to drive it, there's a damned good chance that I'll be willing to spend money on the microtransactions stuff as well. But even without ongoing monetization of me as a player, given that we aren't asking for a full on VR port, it wouldn't take many VR diehards falling by the wayside to make the decision to not indulge us a loss-making one. Sure, that sting will be somewhat assuaged by the influx of new people drawn by the FPS element, and Elite's revenue might actually be better in the Odyssey era than it was in the Horizons era, however, it won't be all that it could have been, and I wonder what the player retention will be like with the FPS crowd.

 

[heathenlamb]

Cheers

The way I see it is:

• They're super clear that they're not going to put meaningful dev resources into VR Legs for launch. See stuff like this:

• Only suggestions that tally with that level of resourcing are likely to get anywhere for now.

This suggestion wouldn't delay a full conversion, in that sense. But it could possibly be do-able with current resourcing. Or encourage FDev to explore other 'win-win' / 'low resource' solutions that provide a bit of fan service in the meantime

Worth a shot ¯\(ツ)/¯

Oh I get what you are driving towards and what their stance is currently. I am worried though that implementing this will simply give the impression they can leave it for even longer until they sort it.

 

[VR andysonofbob]

As a VR only user not only have I pre-purchased the deluxe Odyssey alpha version, I've purchased Arx, ship paint jobs...etc so they are making more money other than just game sales and if this game continues to update and provide content, I'll continue to support them with future purchases but if they abandon the the one thing that brought me to this game ..VR, then i will not be as inclined to buy Arx, skins...etc I'm 51, a Co. owner, I have the money to burn on game for my entertainment and there are lots of other people like me. I can live with the projected 2d screen thing for first person but I'd like them to at least try to implement VR to the legs portion of the game, fortunately the modding community exists and maybe someone will add it for them.

Why did you preorder and still buying Arx?

Surely us VR only folk need to be withholding any purchase, EDO or Arx. Otherwise, what is the is incentive on FD to work on VR?

 

[VR Golgot]

I get told that... I still hadn't cited a FPS game with VR without hand controllers. And you know what, I dont fracking care,

You should.

There are zero PCVR games of note doing what you say FDev should do. (Market first-person character gameplay with classic controls alone).

Elite is not doom, quake or team fracking fortress, it is as you so rightly said primarily a (space) vehicle game, with some first person sprinkles on top,

EDO's dev run is as large as the launch game's dev run, and FDev describe it as having the scale and resourcing of 'a new game'. First person character gameplay is a fundamental component of EDO.

It is not a sprinkle.

perhaps we should ask him where the FPS games are with interstellar travel, 3 vehicle types, rpg loot and craft

NMS

(Motion controllers + classic controls)

 

[VR Golgot]

Oh I get what you are driving towards and what their stance is currently. I am worried though that implementing this will simply give the impression they can leave it for even longer until they sort it.

Cool, I do get the fear.

I guess I just really doubt that this type of tweak would be make or break in either direction though. It would provide something of pretty limited appeal (IE only of use to those with their VR legs, and a large tolerance for jank). Many wouldn't use it, and would continue to wait for a more user-friendly experience.

Ultimately there is still a market for FDev to tap with an official VR port, and a tranche of EDVR heads to mollify. And it would still be cool . I think their motivations to go for it would still be the same...

 

[Sirlance]

Oh I get what you are driving towards and what their stance is currently. I am worried though that implementing this will simply give the impression they can leave it for even longer until they

Why did you preorder and still buying Arx?

Surely us VR only folk need to be withholding any purchase, EDO or Arx. Otherwise, what is the is incentive on FD to work on VR?

My Arx buying is on hold, I purchased Odyssey in good faith they will eventually provide us VR users with a FPS VR solution other than that 2d theater screen . Just like I'm sure ship interiors could eventually happen, if that does happen then room scale VR should too but for the time being I'd like to see VR implementation similar to the Alien Isolation post I made. I am glad they decided to keep it for Ships and SRV's but not being able to get out of my ship and look up at it on foot in VR is very disappointing and that goes for stations, planets, docks, outposts...etc