Allow use of pre 3.3 Advanced Discovery Scanner

[Riverside]

Just as I wouldn't want any player to be given a billion credits for nothing as, I don't want you to get the system picture for nothing.

I'm very glad FSS made sight-seeing tourism a little harder and I hope future changes add more inevitable gameplay to exploration.

So how do you define exploration, if sight-seeing tourism is not exploring in your view?

 

[Faded Glory]

This thread is for a proposal to put them back into the game.

Would you have a use for these modules, would their addition to the game adversely affect you in any meaningful way?

It's telling how no-one seems to want to respond to this question - a question that has been put in pretty much every thread on the topic.

Instead, the even fewer 'usual suspects' who insist it's only four or five (or 30 or 40) people 'constantly moaning' just come back with irrelevant comments on how the FSS is better (everyone knows it's better for most types of traditional exploration) and that the ADS is never coming back (something only FD knows).

Some suggest that it would be easy mode, laughable when you look at how easy the FSS makes traditional exploration, or somehow quicker, laughable again when you look at how quick it is to explore with the FSS.

Yet none seem willing to answer the question you put. How would it adversely affect their game were it to be an optional module that they would not have to use if they didn't find it useful. It certainly seems from the persistence of their objections that it would affect them greatly.

 

[Stigbob]

It's telling how no-one seems to want to respond to this question - a question that has been put in pretty much every thread on the topic.

Instead, the even fewer 'usual suspects' who insist it's only four or five (or 30 or 40) people 'constantly moaning' just come back with irrelevant comments on how the FSS is better (everyone knows it's better for most types of traditional exploration) and that the ADS is never coming back (something only FD knows).

Some suggest that it would be easy mode, laughable when you look at how easy the FSS makes traditional exploration, or somehow quicker, laughable again when you look at how quick it is to explore with the FSS.

Yet none seem willing to answer the question you put. How would it adversely affect their game were it to be an optional module that they would not have to use if they didn't find it useful. It certainly seems from the persistence of their objections that it would affect them greatly.

How does the lack of ADS detract from the game given the FSS has all of its functionality plus extra bells and whistles ?.

 

[Riverside]

Ok then, I take the challenge and break my self-induced silence - just for this one.

Quite frankly, the FSS is pure symbolism, no more no less. Not ideal, far from it, but at least a humble bow towards what exploration actually means. Exploration can be the Marco Polo style or, more realistically (especially when talking about outer space), a lot of science, preparation, patience, money etc., but no matter what kind of exploration you have in mind, it's always requiring some solid endeavours.

And not such mind-bogglingly daft action like a fully automated process triggered by a single push of a button.

I get your objections about "but they are just filters" and it's all there anyway. True but totally irrelevant, all what counts is how it appears to us players, not how it's technically implemented. I'm always open to discuss how to improve the FSS but the main reason why I don't want ADS functionality back into the game is that it takes away this tiny sense of accomplishment that comes from a finished FSS session. ADS functionality would put this little joy ad absurdum - something btw. that more or less already happens in the bubble. No one has ever asked me if I like that. My answer would have been a huge glaring NO, but here we go. Did you ever hear me complaining? That was the compromise in an (obviously futile) attempt to mollify all those who are unable to get rid of some old habits.

There you have your compromise, there will be no other.

So you wouldn't have a use for them but their addition to the game would not adversely affect you in any meaningful way. This is good feedback, thanks.

 

[Stigbob]

So you wouldn't have a use for them but their addition to the game would not adversely affect you in any meaningful way. This is good feedback, thanks.

How does the lack of ADS detract from the game given the FSS has all of its functionality plus extra bells and whistles ?

 

[Riverside]

How does the lack of ADS detract from the game given the FSS has all of its functionality plus extra bells and whistles ?

You can answer this, how does other players using an ADS (the most powerful of the three) impact your game?

 

[Faded Glory]

Ok then, I take the challenge and break my self-induced silence - just for this one.

Quite frankly, the FSS is pure symbolism, no more no less. Not ideal, far from it, but at least a humble bow towards what exploration actually means. Exploration can be the Marco Polo style or, more realistically (especially when talking about outer space), a lot of science, preparation, patience, money etc., but no matter what kind of exploration you have in mind, it's always requiring some solid endeavours.

And not such mind-bogglingly daft action like a fully automated process triggered by a single push of a button.

I get your objections about "but they are just filters" and it's all there anyway. True but totally irrelevant, all what counts is how it appears to us players, not how it's technically implemented. I'm always open to discuss how to improve the FSS but the main reason why I don't want ADS functionality back into the game is that it takes away this tiny sense of accomplishment that comes from a finished FSS session. ADS functionality would put this little joy ad absurdum - something btw. that more or less already happens in the bubble. No one has ever asked me if I like that. My answer would have been a huge glaring NO, but here we go. Did you ever hear me complaining? That was the compromise in an (obviously futile) attempt to mollify all those who are unable to get rid of some old habits.

There you have your compromise, there will be no other.

Ok. So, you don't (didn't) like the fact that pushing one button for a few seconds gave you an overall view of what was in a system.

But again, if you didn't have to use it, how would it negatively affect you?

IMO, having used it quite a bit now, the FSS gives me most of the information about what's in a system (in regards to traditional exploration) with a single button press. The main difference is that if I subsequently decide that I am interested in what I see along the spectrum it's just much quicker to actually scan them.

Interestingly, I find it quite the opposite than when I finish scanning a system with the FSS I feel little sense of accomplishment, because it was so quick and easy to scan it. I'm not suggesting the game should be painful, and I'm not suggesting that long SC journeys were good gameplay, but it's definitely something I noticed.

I completely understand the idea that it can be fun to reveal a system body by body (Darkfyre99 was one of the first people to express this point of view), but that wouldn't be taken away from anybody if they simply chose not to use an optional module, and making the module optional has been a very reasonable compromise made for some time now.

As I've said before, if you somehow feel that it might make it easier for someone who chose to use a system map reveal to identify what was in a system rather than the FSS energy spectrum, then in most case I respectfully disagree.

 

[lenna]

I get your objections about "but they are just filters" and it's all there anyway. True but totally irrelevant, all what counts is how it appears to us players, not how it's technically implemented. I'm always open to discuss how to improve the FSS but the main reason why I don't want ADS functionality back into the game is that it takes away this tiny sense of accomplishment that comes from a finished FSS session. ADS functionality would put this little joy ad absurdum - something btw. that more or less already happens in the bubble. No one has ever asked me if I like that. My answer would have been a huge glaring NO, but here we go. Did you ever hear me complaining? That was the compromise in an (obviously futile) attempt to mollify all those who are unable to get rid of some old habits.

There you have your compromise, there will be no other.

I kind of get where you are coming from but...

If anything, whenever I use the FSS, I think TFTIO rather than feel any sense of accomplishment. It is horrendously tedious and lacks verisimilitude IMO, though I can see what FD were trying to achieve. I believe that was has been proposed for the revived-ADS would not reproduce the end result of an FSS session and would likely end up with the pilot in question taking longer to achieve the same results while (in all likelihood) missing out on at least some system items if the individual in question did not touch the FSS at all.

The problem with the FSS as a replacement for the ADS is not about habits per se - it is about how glaringly poor the FSS implementation is. There are too many issues with the FSS implementation to justify it being a one-for-one replacement for the BDS/IDS/ADS mechanics hence threads like this. It will probably take too long to pick apart and repair the FSS implementation given that a lot of the simple QOL improvements suggested by myself and others during the Beta (and since) have seemingly been ignored.

Since the end-result of an FSS session would result in a greater amount of information being given to the player in a notionally shorter time I fail to see how the lesser information reported by an optional upgrade and requiring either a near object flyby and/or a similar amount of time in the FSS to what you would have to use would take anything away from your personal sense of achievement.

 

[Stigbob]

You can answer this, how does other players using an ADS (the most powerful of the three) impact your game?

My question was :

How does the lack of ADS detract from the game given the FSS has all of its functionality plus extra bells and whistles ?.

 

[Riverside]

My question was :

How does the lack of ADS detract from the game given the FSS has all of its functionality plus extra bells and whistles ?.

You could read the OP

Now your turn, how does other players using an ADS (the most powerful of the three) impact your game?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I kind of get where you are coming from but...

If anything, whenever I use the FSS, I think TFTIO rather than feel any sense of accomplishment. It is horrendously tedious and lacks verisimilitude IMO, though I can see what FD were trying to achieve. I believe that was has been proposed for the revived-ADS would not reproduce the end result of an FSS session and would likely end up with the pilot in question taking longer to achieve the same results while (in all likelihood) missing out on at least some system items if the individual in question did not touch the FSS at all.

The problem with the FSS as a replacement for the ADS is not about habits per se - it is about how glaringly poor the FSS implementation is. There are too many issues with the FSS implementation to justify it being a one-for-one replacement for the BDS/IDS/ADS mechanics hence threads like this. It will probably take too long to pick apart and repair the FSS implementation given that a lot of the simple QOL improvements suggested by myself and others during the Beta (and since) have seemingly been ignored.

Since the end-result of an FSS session would result in a greater amount of information being given to the player in a notionally shorter time I fail to see how the lesser information reported by an optional upgrade and requiring either a near object flyby and/or a similar amount of time in the FSS to what you would have to use would take anything away from your personal sense of achievement.

When you use the FSS do you go through it as quickly as possible?

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

So we're weighing poor versus nothing now. Like in political votes and also in general: When in doubt I'll take the poor version.

Reinstating the ADS is the poor version. Glad you've finally come around.

 

[lenna]

So we're weighing poor versus nothing now. Like in political votes and also in general: When in doubt I'll take the poor version.

That is not answering the question myself and others have raised though, the two systems need never have been considered mutually exclusive in the first place. It is only the extremists that have taken that stance. Myself and others can see the legitimacy of the two systems being able to co-exist, it is just unfortunate that the extremists on either side of the original 3.3 Beta debates could not.

 

[Stigbob]

You could read the OP

Now your turn, how does other players using an ADS (the most powerful of the three) impact your game?

My question was :

How does the lack of ADS detract from the game given the FSS has all of its functionality plus extra bells and whistles ?.

 

[Riverside]

My question was :

How does the lack of ADS detract from the game given the FSS has all of its functionality plus extra bells and whistles ?.

You could read the OP

Now your turn, how does other players using an ADS (the most powerful of the three) impact your game?

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

My question was :

How does the lack of ADS detract from the game given the FSS has all of its functionality plus extra bells and whistles ?.

Did you bang your head Stig?
I've answered this many times in previous threads. I'll explain it again, just for you.

The FSS hides System layout information behind a simplistic minigame which I personally find tedious and unimmersive.

To compound the problem, populating the System map in the FSS also resolves the planetary composition, removing the enjoyable gameplay loop of flying to a planet to resolve it.

In short, the FSS inserts a gameplay loop I don't want, and removes one I do want. An optional ADS would address this problem.

 

[Stigbob]

Did you bang your head Stig?
I've answered this many times in previous threads. I'll explain it again, just for you.

The FSS hides System layout information behind a simplistic minigame which I personally find tedious and unimmersive.

To compound the problem, populating the System map in the FSS also resolves the planetary composition, removing the enjoyable gameplay loop of flying to a planet to resolve it.

In short, the FSS inserts a gameplay loop I don't want, and removes one I do want. An optional ADS would address this problem.

If I cared what you thought I'd probably have asked you.

 

[Stigbob]

You could read the OP

Now your turn, how does other players using an ADS (the most powerful of the three) impact your game?

How does the lack of ADS detract from the game given the FSS has all of its functionality plus extra bells and whistles ?.

 

[Riverside]

How does the lack of ADS detract from the game given the FSS has all of its functionality plus extra bells and whistles ?.

You could read the OP

Now your turn, how does other players using an ADS (the most powerful of the three) impact your game?

Move the conversation forward Stigbob.

 

[Riverside]

Just a footnote to remind any lurkers still reading that this is a dispute between those that are proposing a solution with no downsides and those that wish others to go without, but not themselves.

I favour the solution where everyone wins.