Allow use of pre 3.3 Advanced Discovery Scanner

[Riverside]

I can't think of anything currently, not that that has anything to do with anything. I suppose the old BGS as opposed to the new BGS could be considered. There maybe some others, but I just try to adapt to any changes that come my way and try not to think about them much.

I too continue to play, I have also 'adapted' to the new discovery process, the 'I'm alright Jack' stance is not a useful argument against the retention/reinstatement of the old functionality.

I play the BGS, manipulating minor NPC factions alone in a relatively quiet region on space, and bugs aside I have not seen any change that does not allow my to continue as I always have. It is a new interface with some changes to rules & trigger points (some of which may still be bugged - the triggers for famine or retreat for example) but no gameplay has been removed, the changes are justified as far as I can see.

The Crime/Punishment changes in 3.0 put in a lot of new features that many players hoped would stamp out certain playstyles (aspects of PvP) but all roles are still possible, some now have busywork (visiting an interstellar factor comes to mind) but again, the changes were justified by FDev. For the ADS (the most powerful of the old modules) there was no justification, no need to remove them.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Whilst 'busywork' is indeed subjective, in a game about flying a spaceship stretching the definition of busywork to include flying a spaceship is a little silly, don't you think?

Didnt say it was. But there are some that call supercruise boring (i personally really like it) and would have prefered jumps to the station/planet and avoid supercruise altogether. Each to their own. Supercruise is in the game and it aint going anywhere. They did originally plan not to have supercruise and have our ships jump form planet/station to planet/station in a system. Thankfully for me and probably you they stopped that idea (with help from the forums).

Likewise, claiming flying around a system equates to whack-a-mole ignores the fact that flying is and always has been central to Elite gameplay.

And.

What the FSS does is insert an unavoidable non-flying step to the process of exploration. None of the other activities in ED have flying gated on some other activity. Even mining, which is arguably the closest activity to exploration (in that the rewards don't come directly from moving your ship around) requires you to fly FIRST.

There are plenty of things in the game that stop you from flying, like any station services, opening the system map, opening the galaxy map. But I think of them as different part of my ship. I don't see the game as a space ship game. I see it as a commander in a space ship game. That commander may need to do many diifferent things (some are not in-game yet). So using the FSS for me is just a part of being a space ship commander. To me, this is a fundamental difference in how we see the game.

This is why words like 'minigame', 'timesink' and 'busywork' get used for the FSS, and why they don't apply to the old mechanics.

Nothing wrong with mini-games even though some people try to use it in a derogatory way, it doesn't work though. As to busy work and time sinks, well all gameplay can be considered a time sink and busywork depending on what you like and don't like.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I too continue to play, I have also 'adapted' to the new discovery process, the 'I'm alright Jack' stance is not a useful argument against the retention/reinstatement of the old functionality.

I'm not arguing. Was just pointing somethimg out.

I play the BGS, manipulating minor NPC factions alone in a relatively quiet region on space, and bugs aside I have not seen any change that does not allow my to continue as I always have. It is a new interface with some changes to rules & trigger points (some of which may still be bugged - the triggers for famine or retreat for example) but no gameplay has been removed, the changes are justified as far as I can see.

Fair enough,

The Crime/Punishment changes in 3.0 put in a lot of new features that many players hoped would stamp out certain playstyles (aspects of PvP) but all roles are still possible, some now have busywork (visiting an interstellar factor comes to mind) but again, the changes were justified by FDev. For the ADS (the most powerful of the old modules) there was no justification, no need to remove them.

I see visiting intersteller factors as part of the game world and being in that game world is rewarding as i find it fun, but I do wish they would get rid of the inconsistancies. Therefore, for me going to intersteller factors is not busywork.

As to justification, as stated they don't need to give any. They may have some, but it may not be enought for you and they don't need to give it either. I don't know for sure and neither do you at the end of the day.

 

[Riverside]

As to justification, as stated they don't need to give any. They may have some, but it may not be enought for you and they don't need to give it either. I don't know for sure and neither do you at the end of the day.

... so no need to remove them. I have been saying this since November. This is a proposal to put them back in, because they do no harm and there is an ongoing demand for the removed functionality. Ideally this would be in an optional way to avoid turning the problem into one for other players (like Darkfyre99 or picommander).

It is that simple.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

... so no need to remove them. I have been saying this since November. This is a proposal to put them back in, because they do no harm and there is an ongoing demand for the removed functionality. Ideally this would be in an optional way to avoid turning the problem into one for other players (like Darkfyre99 or picommander).

It is that simple.

There is also no need to continously update the game to make it better overall, but they are still doing that.

Now its been removed, there is no need for it to come back either. If the demand was great (which it isn't, there are now about 10-15 people continously saying the same thing now, it used to be more though), then I could see them doing so. But not at the moment. This is not my decisions or how I personally feel, I am just trying to put myself in FDevs shoes.

Is it worth them adding it back in, probably not. I know it's not what you want to hear, but that is their most likely thoughts on it and I doubt there is nothing you or I or anyone else can do about it unless the forum explodes, but it hasn't done that.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

There are plenty of things in the game that stop you from flying, like any station services, opening the system map, opening the galaxy map. But I think of them as different part of my ship. I don't see the game as a space ship game. I see it as a commander in a space ship game. That commander may need to do many diifferent things (some are not in-game yet). So using the FSS for me is just a part of being a space ship commander. To me, this is a fundamental difference in how we see the game.

I wasn't talking about things that stop you from flying.
The FSS is a step that you're required to do BEFORE flying - which is different from all your other examples which simply take you away from the 'controls' while you access them. I don't have to play a minigame BEFORE I can trade, I don't have to play a minigame BEFORE I can mine, and I don't have to play a minigame BEFORE I can shoot up ships in a CZ.

Nothing wrong with mini-games even though some people try to use it in a derogatory way, it doesn't work though. As to busy work and time sinks, well all gameplay can be considered a time sink and busywork depending on what you like and don't like.

No Max, the core gameplay can't be considered busywork. That would be like saying that kicking a football around in a game of soccer was 'busywork'. However, if FIFA introduced a new rule that required players to tie bits of string together into a net BEFORE they could play the game, that would be busywork. And that's exactly where we are with the FSS, jumping through a meaningless hoop in order to get to the core gameplay.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

This is not my decisions or how I personally feel, I am just trying to put myself in FDevs shoes.

Why?

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Why?

Otherwise all you are doing is weeing up a wall. Looking at something from someone elses perspective usually helps with your demands/wants. If it's highly unlikely to happen, then it's most likely this thread is just a waste of time and effort.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I wasn't talking about things that stop you from flying.
The FSS is a step that you're required to do BEFORE flying - which is different from all your other examples which simply take you away from the 'controls' while you access them. I don't have to play a minigame BEFORE I can trade, I don't have to play a minigame BEFORE I can mine, and I don't have to play a minigame BEFORE I can shoot up ships in a CZ.

All of those you just described can be considered mini-games. Like the core asteroid mining is a new mini-game. Its irrelavent whether its in cockpit or not it can still be a mini-game. Also I am pretty sure the galaxy map is needed most of the time to play many parts of the game. Without it, it would be extremely difficult or impossible.

No Max, the core gameplay can't be considered busywork. That would be like saying that kicking a football around in a game of soccer was 'busywork'. However, if FIFA introduced a new rule that required players to tie bits of string together into a net BEFORE they could play the game, that would be busywork. And that's exactly where we are with the FSS, jumping through a meaningless hoop in order to get to the core gameplay.

That depends on what you call core. That is a poor example. You see even though I like supercruise, it's hardly flying your ship is it. It requires vitually zero interaction (slowing down at a station) to a small amount of interection (avoid gravity wells) and then you get the interdiction mini-game, which I also like.

Proper flying is when I am not in supercruise which requires far more interaction, which is at the moment a pretty small part of the game. Your in normal flight probably the least time of anything which is a shame.

 

[Riverside]

Otherwise all you are doing is weeing up a wall. Looking at something from someone elses perspective usually helps with your demands/wants. If it's highly unlikely to happen, then it's most likely this thread is just a waste of time and effort.

It's a proposal thread Max, most don't make it past the first page and the main reason why it's so long is because people keep objecting with either the apathy or schadenfreude arguments.

All objections are overcome, it just needs input from FDev. If it were implemented you would just adapt as you stated earlier.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

It's a proposal thread Max, most don't make it past the first page and the main reason why it's so long is because people keep objecting with either the apathy or schadenfreude arguments.

I am not objecting.

All objections are overcome, it just needs input from FDev.

In your opinion.

If it were implemented you would just adapt as you stated earlier.

I probably would.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Otherwise all you are doing is weeing up a wall. Looking at something from someone elses perspective usually helps with your demands/wants. If it's highly unlikely to happen, then it's most likely this thread is just a waste of time and effort.

You gave your perspective, and it was factored into the "make the ADS optional so it doesn't impact on the gameplay of people who don't want it".
Trying to police the language people use to describe the FSS isn't necessary and doesn't add anything to the discussion.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Looking at something from someone elses perspective usually helps with your demands/wants. If it's highly unlikely to happen, then it's most likely this thread is just a waste of time and effort.

I haven't explored for months but I still have about 500 of my favourite screenshots rotating as wallpaper on my pc. And many of them trigger the exploration itch. Many remind me of the good times. Twice I have returned to Elite to try a different way of exploring, but they all run into the repeated FSS usage grind weariness. But the itch won't go away. So I check the forums. So I argue in favour of the way I figure I would enjoy exploration again, keeping in mind that the FSS is here to stay and to be used, and facilitates my way of exploration, while not taking away what others currently enjoy. And I feel there are options to do just that.

If Frontier has decided, this is the new exploration, most are happy with it, exploration is done for the next X years, all of this is futile. They already stated no significant updates until late 2020, so for the short term I expect nothing. This being a gaming forum, and you're always one voice in many, most threads and most posts we make are a waste of time and effort. 99% of the discussions in the suggestion forum are academic.

There were times when I thought my posts on the beige plague were a waste of time though.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

All of those you just described can be considered mini-games. Like the core asteroid mining is a new mini-game. Its irrelavent whether its in cockpit or not it can still be a mini-game. Also I am pretty sure the galaxy map is needed most of the time to play many parts of the game. Without it, it would be extremely difficult or impossible.

You're arguing against a point I'm not making.
The point I am making is that exploration is gated behind the FSS - whether or not it or anything else can be considered a minigame doesn't change the fact that no other activity is gated by anything other than flying around.

The galaxy map isn't required for trading, mining, combat or even exploration. Yes, if I want to travel further than my jump range I need it, but the Nav Panel alone will allow me to play the game perfectly well.

That depends on what you call core. That is a poor example. You see even though I like supercruise, it's hardly flying your ship is it. It requires vitually zero interaction (slowing down at a station) to a small amount of interection (avoid gravity wells) and then you get the interdiction mini-game, which I also like.

Proper flying is when I am not in supercruise which requires far more interaction, which is at the moment a pretty small part of the game. Your in normal flight probably the least time of anything which is a shame.

Supercruise is absolutely flying your ship - well, it was before FDev decided that it was too complex and could be automated. Sure, it isn't as complex as flying in real space, but it's still core to the ED experience.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You gave your perspective, and it was factored into the "make the ADS optional so it doesn't impact on the gameplay of people who don't want it".
Trying to police the language people use to describe the FSS isn't necessary and doesn't add anything to the discussion.

I am not policing anything. People can say whatever they like.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I haven't explored for months but I still have about 500 of my favourite screenshots rotating as wallpaper on my pc. And many of them trigger the exploration itch. Many remind me of the good times. Twice I have returned to Elite to try a different way of exploring, but they all run into the repeated FSS usage grind weariness. But the itch won't go away. So I check the forums. So I argue in favour of the way I figure I would enjoy exploration again, keeping in mind that the FSS is here to stay and to be used, and facilitates my way of exploration, while not taking away what others currently enjoy. And I feel there are options to do just that.

If Frontier has decided, this is the new exploration, most are happy with it, exploration is done for the next X years, all of this is futile. They already stated no significant updates until late 2020, so for the short term I expect nothing. This being a gaming forum, and you're always one voice in many, most threads and most posts we make are a waste of time and effort. 99% of the discussions in the suggestion forum are academic.

There were times when I though my posts on the beige plague were a waste of time though.

I agree. The thing with the beige plague was that around 80-90% of the players in the forums weren't happy with it. I am sure if 50/60/70% of the player base was complaining, something would be done. But it's more likely 1-2%. That is the major issue I believe.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I agree. The thing with the beige plague was that around 80-90% of the players in the forums weren't happy with it. I am sure if 50/60/70% of the player base was complaining, something would be done. But it's more likely 1-2%. That is the major issue I believe.

You don't know what percentage isn't happy with the loss of the ADS. There's the regulars in threads but they do not represent the total population.

Anecdotal, from other explorers I hear the same sentiments I have been voicing.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I agree. The thing with the beige plague was that around 80-90% of the players in the forums weren't happy with it. I am sure if 50/60/70% of the player base was complaining, something would be done. But it's more likely 1-2%. That is the major issue I believe.

Why drive away even 1-2% of your playerbase unnecessarily?

The beige plague was a bug, and was eventually fixed by an overall rework to planet surfaces. It didn't get fixed because of players complaining.
Also, while it might be 80-90% of explorers who complained about it, it certainly wasn't anywhere near that percentage of the forum as a whole.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It didn't get fixed because of players complaining.

Heck, it was only acknowledged 3 months after it was reported.

I remember because for those 3 months I had been discussing with those who didn't believe in the beige bug until Michael finally confirmed it.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You're arguing against a point I'm not making.
The point I am making is that exploration is gated behind the FSS - whether or not it or anything else can be considered a minigame doesn't change the fact that no other activity is gated by anything other than flying around.

The galaxy map isn't required for trading, mining, combat or even exploration. Yes, if I want to travel further than my jump range I need it, but the Nav Panel alone will allow me to play the game perfectly well.

Sorry but the galaxy map is very much needed for exploration. Without it, it would be impossible to know if you have been to that system or not. It would just be completely aimless. Thats ludicrous. The Galaxy map is vital in my view. Without it, the game pretty much becomes unplayable for exploration, you would not have any clue where you were going and what direction you were going in.

As to mining, I suppose you could just wonder around systems until you find a place to mine. Trading, if its more then one jump away, how the hell do you find out where to jump too and what direction that system is.

Sorry, but the galaxy map is vital for most parts of the game. I couldn't really play the game without it.

Supercruise is absolutely flying your ship - well, it was before FDev decided that it was too complex and could be automated. Sure, it isn't as complex as flying in real space, but it's still core to the ED experience.

To me and you it is a core experience to the game. But there have been plenty of posts about removing supercruise and having jumps between planets/stations, because they don't like it and see it as a "time sink".