An Exploration Thought Experiment

[el_tel2]

Imagine if you can, back when ED was first released, and everything was shiny and new, instead the current exploration mechanic, FD kept the existing straightforward hyperspace jumping to those systems that are in 'the bubble' (~20,000 systems IIRC). Jumping to new systems would then be a new gameplay element in itself. One that to master, would require specialist scanning equipment, experience, and a keen eye.

When jumping to an 'untethered' destination, there would always be an element of risk, although this could be largely mitigated by adequate preparation. When a new system is visited (and preferably fully mapped), the player would possess valuable new star data which can then be sold to UC for a tidy profit. The new star system then appear in the UC galactic map, allowing other players to jump there (effectively expanding the bubble).

This mechanic would of course slow down the spread of players throughout the galaxy (Beagle Point wouldn't exist, at least not in the same place). And we may have made it to Sagittarius A* by now. But I don't think keeping players relatively close together would be a bad thing. Combat players like to go where there's combat. Traders like trade routes. Miners might be tempted to dabble in a bit of Exploration (but maybe keep rare finds to themselves, and not sell the data to UC).

Do you think a system like this would have been better, or do you prefer it like is is now?. Or another way? I know it's not going to change, it's just a thought experiment, which is why I made the thread in 'Exploration', and not in the 'Suggestions' area.

If you prefer exploration generally as it is now, then I'd like your opinions too. Do you consider yourself an Explorer? What is it that you like about it?

 

[Kerissimo]

Some new dangers and risks waiting for explorers? Count me in!
For now explorations is one of safest things to do, and only true danger is hitting exclusion zone inside white dwarf jet cone, there is no going back from there.

(Un)luckily we have reached galaxy edges etc, but as for me that kind of mechanic could be useful in some galaxy parts, and unexplored systems.

I would gladly see many, many more new risks (and things to explore, not just map another "the same" systems should await explorers.

Also wish black holes would be more deadly especially from close,the closer you get, the bigger should be rewarded, but higher the risk of not getting out.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

AFAIK that was almost precisely what was written in the DDF in the very early concepting Days.

Explorers would earn Credits, while also generating easily usable jump points and routes for other Players over time (after respective UC Data was sold).
That way, the Exploration activity would have had a profound effect on the Galaxy and associated Gameplay.

Well-explored areas or routes would allow quick and automatic travel as we know it today, whereas pushing the boundaries (exploring new Systems) would have required a Vessel equipped for Exploration.

I have to say, I wouldn't have minded that at all and I don't think it would have prevented non-Explorers to travel to points of interest in the long run.
With the implemented Exploration having virtually no effect at all on the Galaxy (which is super weird and feels extremely disconnected), alot of potential for interconnected and meaningful Gameplay was lost.

 

[Kerissimo]

If that kind of system would be implemented, we could just say "Explorers was just lucky (the ones who came back ) and from now on its getting harder"

 

[Orvidius]

Well, maybe it could be done this way if they ever open up the Magellanic Clouds for exploration.

 

[Defacto]

I think FD made a mistake when they made long-distance travel so simple. It only took a few days after the bubble opened up, for people to fly away first to the Orion nebula and then to Sag A*. Still an impressive accomplishment, but...

I think you loose some of the magic, majesty and mystery (that sounded a lot more poetic than intended ) when the size of the galaxy is more about the vast amount of places to look for stuff, than it is about the size itself.

Imagine carefully working your way into the black, setting up forward bases, supply chains... enlisting the help of non-explorer archetype players... and then civilization, with colonies, commodity economics and criminality eventually arrives. Well, too late now for this stuff.

 

[Erimus Kamzel]

I think FD made a mistake when they made long-distance travel so simple. It only took a few days after the bubble opened up, for people to fly away first to the Orion nebula and then to Sag A*. Still an impressive accomplishment, but...

I think you loose some of the magic, majesty and mystery (that sounded a lot more poetic than intended ) when the size of the galaxy is more about the vast amount of places to look for stuff, than it is about the size itself.

Imagine carefully working your way into the black, setting up forward bases, supply chains... enlisting the help of non-explorer archetype players... and then civilization, with colonies, commodity economics and criminality eventually arrives. Well, too late now for this stuff.

Exactly this.

A lot of the early exploration groups were founded on the back of that kind of gameplay. The FGE for example. It was thought exploring the depths would take cooperation and planning.

Unfortunately Fdev had a change of direction very late in the day, and they never even communicated to the players that the DDF exploration proposal had been scrapped. I remember a few players asking for clarification on whether exploration in Gamma would be replaced by the final DDF mechanics once the game went fully live. There was no response, which caused a few players not to venture too far from the bubble in-case they'd get stranded out there once the proposed hyperspace discovery mechanic kicked in.


The exploration mechanics we have today are a far cry from the in-depth version they sold us during the lead up to release. If you look at what they originally planned, its so disheartening to see the way it turned out.

Original DDF proposal.

Spoiler: Exploration in Elite Dangerous

Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:26 pm
Dan Davies, Designer- Elite: Dangerous wrote:
"Where we're going... we don't need eyes to see!" Revised Explorers in Elite

Hello all!
I've given Explorers a quick run through to add in some extra detail and clarifications, we're happy this one is going so well and please continue discussion!

In Elite: Dangerous explorers are players who travel out into undiscovered areas of the galaxy, hoping to find previously undiscovered systems and locations. Explorers scan and record data wherever they go, and can sell that data on to various interested authorities. Explorers can also sell on data they have discovered to other players, allowing them to sell the co-ordinates of a valuable find to the highest bidder, or keep their discoveries to exploit for themselves.

Explorer players must discover different points of interest using different methods

• Explorer players’ main method of making money is through selling details of points of interest they discover
  • Points of interest players can discover include:
    • Star Systems
    • Dark Systems (systems without a star, but other features)
    • Stars
    • Planets
    • Asteroids, comets
    • Moons
    • Structures
    • Other Phenomena
  • These Discovered locations may include:
    • Secret Locations
    • Resources
    • Events/Missions (time limited and permanent)
    • Beauty spots (usually attached to other entities)
    • Messages/Beacons
• Players explore to build up the details on their galaxy map
  • When starting a new commander the player will have some details on their galaxy map
    • This will allow the player to travel to any locations they have map data to, without having to explore
  • Players can buy map data from authorities to expand their ships computers library of maps
    • New map data will allow the player to travel to new locations without needing to explore
    • Map data that is bought from authorities is not to the highest level of detail and can be improved with player gathered data
    • Map data includes hyperspace routes to systems and major points of interest in that system
• Players can use scanning equipment and probes to detect systems and record new hyperspace routes
  • Scanners are used to detect any nearby systems that are within the players jump range
    • Scanners will give the player a vague indication of the direction of a system
    • High end scanners can give the player a better details of the system they have detected (is it a star, an asteroid field etc.)
  • Players can then launch hyperspace probes that will give the player more information on the part of space they are looking at
    • Probes will give the player heat-map style data to help guide the player to the correct co-ordinates for a jump
    • Heatmap data might be ambiguous, creating skill based gameplay where the player learns to interpret the readings they recieve
    • Different equipment can determine the quality of heatmap data
    • Different probe ammo can provide different information, or react based on objects in the target system
  • Using the data they have gathered the player must align their ship as best they can with the target system and activate the hyperdrive to jump to the system
    • The player’s ship records data of any successful jumps the player makes
    • The pilots federation will always pay players for the first successful jump they make using the exploration method (If the player bought the map data for the jump they cannot sell the data), even if the player is not the first person ever to make the jump (the pilots federation use the data to improve their telemetry and keep maps up to date)
    • If the player is the first person to ever make the journey they receive a bonus for discovering the hyperspace route
    • The closer the player lines up their jump to the target system, the higher quality the data the players ship will gather on the jump. Higher quality data is worth more money when sold to authorities
  • If a player’s jump is not accurate enough they may suffer a miss jump
    • Longer distance jumps require a higher level of accuracy
    • A systems contents may also affect how accurate a players jump must be to avoid mis-jumping
• Players use scanners to detect points of interest within systems
  • The player’s scanners detect various points of interest around the player
    • It takes time for players scanners to detect points of interest
    • Player’s proximity to a point of interest can affect the time it takes to detect
    • Proximity may often have risks associated with it - Solar Radiation for example
    • Players ship facing can affect the time it takes to detect a point of interest (e.g. pointing my ship at a undiscovered point of interest will allow me to scan it faster)
  • Different types of points of interest can require different player actions to detect
    • For example to detect a mineral rich formation of asteroids the player must launch probes around an asteroid field
    • The probes provide a cross section from their perspective of the asteroid field they’re launched at
      • Each additional probe the player uses provides more details on the target asteroid field
    • The player uses their scanner to view the data from the probes, and must tag the areas with the highest concentration of minerals in the field
    • Once this process is complete the point of interest is completed
      • The quality of the players scan of the area affects the value of the data
      • The quality of the player’s scan can affect the amount and type of materials found in the asteroids
• Players can sell the information that they discover through these methods
  • Players will have to travel back to sell the data they acquire while exploring
  • The first player to sell/discover the information receives a greater reward
  • Information by become redundant from time to time as the galaxy moves and it can then be resold

Players can sell information they have gathered to other players as well as authorities. This is done through a trade interface similar to the trade goods trading interface. Players can sell hyperspace routes from their location to any single system they have explored to. The purchasing player then offers a price (this can be 0 if it is a gift), and if both players are satisfied they agree to the trade. Players can also trade in system data including locations of points of interest using the same method.

• Players can take photographs (essentially screenshots) from their view ports (with and without cockpit and GUI etc)
  • Player photographs can be submitted to a regular photography contest
    • Players can only submit one photograph each
  • Players can vote on a selection of the best photographs
  • The player(s) who get the most votes wins the competition
    • The winner gets a (in game) cash prize (plus prizes for 2nd 3rd most weird etc.)
    • The photograph (and other user submissions) will be used in appropriate places in the game (billboards, news papers, etc.)

Players who decide to go exploring are jumping into the unknown, and without high end kit, often with little to no knowledge of the dangers they are jumping in to. Alongside the risk of encountering hostility when jumping to an unknown system, explorers scanners attract a lot of attention, generating lots of heat. Explorer ships will need to be prepared to face hostile activity when exploring, and players need to be ready to fight for their claims or run for their lives.

The part I've highlighted in that spoiler would have fundamentally changed the way we perceive the galaxy - as progress through it would have been slow and meticulous, even skill based with an element of danger attached. The far recesses of the Galaxy would have taken months, possibly years to reach. The awe and sense of mystery that was there in the first year of release would still be there today (that's not to say newer players these days don't feel that too when first starting out).

 

[marx]

Well, the DDF's drafts(!) overestimated what Frontier would be able to deliver, and things fell short of those, not just in exploration. This isn't just exclusive to Elite, by the way: No Man's Sky's devs have also overestimated what they would be capable of getting ready to launch, then there's Star Citizen, which entered production in 2011 and was promised to launch in 2014. It seems like developers overestimating what they can do with space sims is a trend these days. (Not that this hasn't happened before, mind. See: Freelancer.)

That said, would it really have been better if long distances in the galaxy were that difficult to reach, given that the galaxy is pretty much the same on the opposite end from Sol? There are the galactic arms, the inter-arm voids, the edges and the core, and as anyone who has been to the various directions of the galaxy can tell you, the differences between the same kinds of areas are quite negligible. Some local features here and there, like how the Southern edge is more difficult to navigate than the North (despite the latter being much farther), but the content that is there to be found is the same.
So, imagine if players had to mount multi-year expeditions and the galaxy couldn't be traversed by solo explorers, only to find that what awaited them out there would be... more of the same. Would that have been really such a good move? In such a "what if" scenario, I think the first great far expedition would have also been the last, as nobody would have been interested in doing more. Unless there were specific hints about hand-placed stuff, but then that's guided (DM-ed) exploration.

To avoid this, Frontier could have done two things.
One: have different galaxy generation in the far reaches. Honestly, I think this would have been a rather terrible idea, and would also have zero basis in fact.
Two: put lots of different hand-crafted content out there. In practice, this would be content for only a small subset of players, as based on the proposals, it would either require an expedition to get there, which would exclude solo explorers, or it would give expeditions an enormous headstart, and by the time solo explorers got there, things would have likely been found.

So, to sum things up, I don't know if all this would have been so good.

But all this is just a "what if" scenario, something that would have likely only been feasible if Elite: Dangerous were a game solely about exploration, and nothing else. In which case, I doubt it would have attracted and retained(!) as many players as it has.
And while it would be cool to explore dwarf galaxies with new mechanics, I doubt Frontier would do an expansion centered solely around those. Improving planetary exploration (plenty of types left to "unlock", so to speak) seems to be a better way forward.

 

[Rock-Hermit]

That said, would it really have been better if long distances in the galaxy were that difficult to reach

Yes, yes it would.

So, imagine if players had to mount multi-year expeditions and the galaxy couldn't be traversed by solo explorers.

Nothing in the ddf really excluded solo players though. Also don't underestimate the tenacity of players. Many have now circumnavigated whole planets in srvs, and I bet sometime this year we'll be hearing of players doing it on foot. When there's a challenge, there are people who will rise to it and pave the way for others to follow. I have no doubt if the ddf idea of creating hyperspacing routes into the galaxy had been implemented, plenty of 'solo' players would've created those routes, routes that others could have followed along and built upon, creating their own branches, and eventually building up a network of travel highways around the galaxy. Quicker in multiplayer expeditions obviously, but solo players would've been the pioneers in the main, as they are today.

If nothing else, the ddf ideas would've at least added challenges that this game has lacked for 6 years. It would've also bought frontier time to flesh out the galaxy. Instead people had gone to sgr-a* before the game had even been officially launched, and that should've been a big red flag to them. The fact is, I for one feel a tad mislead by the way exploration was being touted by frontier at the time, along with the hype and pride they talked about in recreating the milky way. Those posts, articles, diary videos sold a vision that frontier never lived up to. That's undeniable.

 

[The Reverend]

It wasn't just explorers that got shafted. The whole game STILL lacks the depth that was used to sell it to the backers during the fund raisers. The way Frontier did it is the reason I'll never back a kickstarter again.

 

[marx]

If nothing else, the ddf ideas would've at least added challenges that this game has lacked for 6 years.

Now that I've re-read the DDF quotes, I highly doubt they would have added challenge, more like tedium. What would have been required: interpreting a heat map, which wouldn't be hard, and then pointing your ship at a point as precisely as you can.
That's all.

In essence, we would have had to play what sounds like a pretty simple minigame to enter each and every undiscovered system. Maybe challenging for the first, hm, fifty times, then after another fifty, it would just bring tedium. Now, knowing how many systems in the galaxy are quite boring and have nothing out of the ordinary, I'd say thanks, but no thanks. It would be fine if such systems were guaranteed to have something interesting, but we all know that's not the case - as it should be.

It seems to me like whoever wrote that DDF entry thought the galaxy is going to be filled with much more variety than it did. But at this scale, so much variety, simply wouldn't work - not without dedicating the entire game to it. Forcing repetitive gameplay on players with only a small chance of a meaningful reward for completion isn't exactly a good idea.
(Somebody should have told this to the FSS guy(s).)

It wasn't just explorers that got shafted. The whole game STILL lacks the depth that was used to sell it to the backers during the fund raisers. The way Frontier did it is the reason I'll never back a kickstarter again.

Mm, quite. Reality ensued. Kickstarters for video games have rarely met expectations fully: out of those that I've backed, only Satellite Reign did, and also Divinity: Original Sin 2, but that one doesn't really count. (It was done mostly as a survey to prove how many people would be interested in the sequel.)

The end result was still pretty good, however. Personally, I would have liked to see more, sure, (I decided not to get DDF access though, as I found it too pricey, and the promise of "god-like powers" was very much off-putting to me.) but what I got in the end did get me plenty of fun with exploration, and other activities too.


I'm still not convinced that making it much slower and more tedious to go around this galaxy would have been good for the game.
However, for a differently generated, smaller(!) (dwarf) galaxy, such as the Magellanic Clouds mentioned by @Orvidius above, I think it could be made to work, and might even be better if done well. These two parts (smaller size and different generation) are important, however.
Well, to be precise, I don't mean the exact proposed mechanics would work, because the "for every system, look at a heatmap and point your ship to a target" would still grow tedious fairly quickly, but more like the principle of the thing, having a fog of war on the galaxy map and needing to map out routes.

 

[Rock-Hermit]

In essence, we would have had to play what sounds like a pretty simple minigame to enter each and every undiscovered system. Maybe challenging for the first, hm, fifty times, then after another fifty, it would just bring tedium. Now, knowing how many systems in the galaxy are quite boring and have nothing out of the ordinary, I'd say thanks, but no thanks. It would be fine if such systems were guaranteed to have something interesting, but we all know that's not the case - as it should be.

What? As opposed to what we have now? Align and press J.

The mini-game should've been the bare minimum we got, and it should've been the foundation to build upon, fleshed out, refined over time with the gradual introduction of specialized equipment or scout-ships that streamline the process, or even offer different ways to seek out undefined routes.

I've just read the DDF again too. I've striked through everything that was stripped away. Lets see what we lost, and what we got. It s quite telling.

• Explorer players’ main method of making money is through selling details of points of interest they discover
  • Points of interest players can discover include:
    • Star Systems
    • Dark Systems (systems without a star, but other features)
    • Stars
    • Planets
    • Asteroids, comets
    • Moons
    • Structures
    • Other Phenomena (I guess the Codex now covers this?)
  • These Discovered locations may include:
    • Secret Locations
    • Resources
    • Events/Missions (time limited and permanent)
    • Beauty spots (usually attached to other entities) (we only get these thanks to the GMP recording them!)
    • Messages/Beacons
• Players explore to build up the details on their galaxy map
  • When starting a new commander the player will have some details on their galaxy map
    • This will allow the player to travel to any locations they have map data to, without having to explore Nope, we can go anywhere our ship has range and fuel to reach.
  • Players can buy map data from authorities to expand their ships computers library of maps
    • New map data will allow the player to travel to new locations without needing to explore
    • Map data that is bought from authorities is not to the highest level of detail and can be improved with player gathered data
    • Map data includes hyperspace routes to systems and major points of interest in that system
• Players can use scanning equipment and probes to detect systems and record new hyperspace routes
  • Scanners are used to detect any nearby systems that are within the players jump range
    • Scanners will give the player a vague indication of the direction of a system
    • High end scanners can give the player a better details of the system they have detected (is it a star, an asteroid field etc.)
  • Players can then launch hyperspace probes that will give the player more information on the part of space they are looking at
    • Probes will give the player heat-map style data to help guide the player to the correct co-ordinates for a jump
    • Heatmap data might be ambiguous, creating skill based gameplay where the player learns to interpret the readings they recieve
    • Different equipment can determine the quality of heatmap data
    • Different probe ammo can provide different information, or react based on objects in the target system
  • Using the data they have gathered the player must align their ship as best they can with the target system and activate the hyperdrive to jump to the system
    • The player’s ship records data of any successful jumps the player makes
    • The pilots federation will always pay players for the first successful jump they make using the exploration method (If the player bought the map data for the jump they cannot sell the data), even if the player is not the first person ever to make the jump (the pilots federation use the data to improve their telemetry and keep maps up to date)
    • If the player is the first person to ever make the journey they receive a bonus for discovering the hyperspace route
    • The closer the player lines up their jump to the target system, the higher quality the data the players ship will gather on the jump. Higher quality data is worth more money when sold to authorities
  • If a player’s jump is not accurate enough they may suffer a miss jump
    • Longer distance jumps require a higher level of accuracy
    • A systems contents may also affect how accurate a players jump must be to avoid mis-jumping
• Players use scanners to detect points of interest within systems
  • The player’s scanners detect various points of interest around the player
    • It takes time for players scanners to detect points of interest
    • Player’s proximity to a point of interest can affect the time it takes to detect
    • Proximity may often have risks associated with it - Solar Radiation for example
    • Players ship facing can affect the time it takes to detect a point of interest (e.g. pointing my ship at a undiscovered point of interest will allow me to scan it faster)
  • Different types of points of interest can require different player actions to detect
    • For example to detect a mineral rich formation of asteroids the player must launch probes around an asteroid field
    • The probes provide a cross section from their perspective of the asteroid field they’re launched at
      • Each additional probe the player uses provides more details on the target asteroid field
    • The player uses their scanner to view the data from the probes, and must tag the areas with the highest concentration of minerals in the field
    • Once this process is complete the point of interest is completed
      • The quality of the players scan of the area affects the value of the data
      • The quality of the player’s scan can affect the amount and type of materials found in the asteroids
• Players can sell the information that they discover through these methods
  • Players will have to travel back to sell the data they acquire while exploring
  • The first player to sell/discover the information receives a greater reward
  • Information caan become redundant from time to time as the galaxy moves and it can then be resold
  • Players can sell information they have gathered to other players as well as authorities

It pretty easy to see here that exploration in Elite was supposed to be primarily around the discovery of hyperspace routes (even exploring the physicality of the galaxy and its structure, perhaps?), as that is where the majority of hands-on gameplay was outlined. looking at it, there would have been a galaxy-wide fog of war, that each player would need to uncover over time, but could also reveal via map trading. That entire loop was stripped out.

Yes, probably that mini-game would get repetitive, just as aligning our ships and pressing J is today (the version we got). But mapping the galaxy as well as making pathfinding an integral part of the exploration gameplay loop is one that would have brought a sense of accomplishment to it, as well as keeping parts of the galaxy shrouded in mystique until much later in the elite timeline. Those are two important aspects of exploration that we lost, especially the latter.

 

[el_tel2]

I'd missed that DDF topic, and wasn't even aware it existed (honest!)

 

[GunnerBill]

Well, maybe it could be done this way if they ever open up the Magellanic Clouds for exploration.

Galactic hyperdrive, ahh those were the days!

 

[Mengy]

Ah, there's that DDF again. What could have been....