An idea that could fix logging?

[yodajedifishmaster]

At the end of the day, combat logging only exists because it's there. It's part and parcel of the game architecture.

There's only one way to fix it. Properly. Don't have it there!


It's like this. Picture a bunch of 4 year olds in a room. In the center of the room there's a bowl of Haribo. As the adult leaves the room, he says.. Kids, don't touch the Haribo.

At first the kids may listen, but, sooner or later.. all the Haribo will go.

If there were no Haribo in the room, the kids would get on and play.


Any and all of the suggestions so far about combat logging have been about either a) punishing the kids for taking the Haribo (how do you prove who took what? Some kids probably didn't touch them... or b) somehow poisoning / contaminating the Haribo so the kids are put off touching them... but in doing so, ruin the Haribo for everyone else.

About time we steered clear of thinking of ways to turn the Haribo bad... or thinking of ways to punish the kids for taking something that is so in view it's almost baiting them to have some.

The only proper thing to do is make combat logging irrelevant through architectural change. If that's not going to happen, then combat logging will never stop. Human nature.

im confused. do you mean have player ships vulnerable all the time to attack no matter if docked or if the player themselves logged off ages ago to go to bed while not in comnbat? are you advocating a free for all on unmanned player ships? the gankers will be loving that, wetting themselves with the anticipation of the rage when player z logs in from what used to be a safe position in deep space (because he couldnt get to the station for 9 minutes and REALLY needed to sleep because work in real life in a few hours) to find hes looking at rebuy and fines for failed missions. is that your idea? that you MUST only ever log out of the game when you have docked your ship in a hangar or have it blwon up by hunter gankers looking for logged out commanders ships? what about solo? does that mean my ship when i log out in solo which is all i play suddenly appears in open so it can be ganked by anybody?

because you seem to be suggesting that no logging at all. so either everyone has to suddenly play elite 24 hours per day every day, for the rest of their lives, or lose the ship as soon as the hunters find it.

 

[Stigbob]

It's all well and good saying we should take the OP's very valid point regarding combat logging in isolation and not base them on his previous decisions and actions but as that is never what goes on on these boards I think it is more than a bit rich to suggest doing so. There have been several occasions where known combat loggers have posted and some of the PVP community have been all over them like a rash, claiming their ideas, views or position are invalidated because they are cheats. There are many examples of known PVE players commenting on discussions regarding open and some of the PVP community have told them they have no right to post because of their choices.

No, I'm sorry, everyone gets judged on their choices, past postings, actions in game and more when making or responding to threads on these boards, why should Potter be any different or a 'special case'?

Yep, I don't know if Harry actually wants clogging fixed and isn't just stirring the pot, salt mining or throwing up a smokescreen about one of the many exploits he happily uses.

If he is serious about a fix for this the most constructive thing he could do is start raving about how great clogging is complete with videos, that way he doesn't harm his own cause just by being himself.

 

[Theodrid]

Theodrid, the reasons are two fold. Besieger/harry has infamy in this game. His attention seeking has given him some 'name recognition'. This celebrity is akin to the how tRump manages to get elected. People are dazzled by their notoriety, and hope to gain some of this cache by agreeing with everything they say. They may not even know they are doing it.

The second is the nature of the discussion. Because besieger invoked the universally hated CLer, the focus of the conversation can be directed away from the OP. Kind of like how tRump runs to Fox News every time he needs to be rehabilitated. This ploy helps to foster a rehabilitation because people find themselves agreeing with a cheater, their estimation of the writer is improved.

So, in all. This thread is the first step in the rehabilitation of those caught up in the Modification Cheat scandal. Just like how real celebrities tr-gain acceptance by the public. Because, as we all know, there is no worse cheat imaginable, than Combat logging. So for some, comparing themselves to CL'ers, is the only way to look good again.

I don't necessarily disagree with that Moh and for me at least there is no doubt about the intentions of creating said thread, but hypocrisy of this magnitude from not just HP but many of those involved is going to push my buttons every damn time.

 

[Mohrgan]

I don't necessarily disagree with that Moh and for me at least there is no doubt about the intentions of creating said thread, but hypocrisy of this magnitude from not just HP but many of those involved is going to push my buttons every damn time.

I used my initial posts in this thread to try and point out just that hypocrisy. I even had people tell me to lay off, and only discuss the topic of the OP. Just remember, this stuff is done because it works.

 

[Theodrid]

I used my initial posts in this thread to try and point out just that hypocrisy. I even had people tell me to lay off, and only discuss the topic of the OP. Just remember, this stuff is done because it works.

Indeed, though it may be some time before I, (and others no doubt), fall for the wizards, (and others), spells, misdirection and illusion!

 

[Riverside]

Indeed, though it may be some time before I, (and others no doubt), fall for the wizards, (and others), spells, misdirection and illusion!

I have no cross to bear, no axe to grind on CLogging. I don't care whether a player is shown a witty jpg or not if caught doing something FDev think they shouldn't, I just want the behaviour to be discouraged in such a way that playing out the scenario they got themselves into in-game becomes their preferred option.

If you don't want to bump this thread then discuss it in the one I started here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/359238-Combat-Logging-Punishment-Proposal

I put together a workable solution based on the contributions in that thread here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/359238-Combat-Logging-Punishment-Proposal?p=5662061&viewfull=1#post5662061

 

[Theodrid]

I have no cross to bear, no axe to grind on CLogging. I don't care whether a player is shown a witty jpg or not if caught doing something FDev think they shouldn't, I just want the behaviour to be discouraged in such a way that playing out the scenario they got themselves into in-game becomes their preferred option.

If you don't want to bump this thread then discuss it in the one I started here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/359238-Combat-Logging-Punishment-Proposal

I put together a workable solution based on the contributions in that thread here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/359238-Combat-Logging-Punishment-Proposal?p=5662061&viewfull=1#post5662061

I have no issue with bumping this thread, (not entirely sure why you maybe thought I did), indeed, this is the perfect place to discuss what I am discussing given the identity of OP, I certainly hope Frontier can action combat logging sooner rather than later. I do have issues with hypocrisy and consistency though and will post on such as and when I feel it is appropriate - and if I want to discuss your proposals I will by posting in the appropriate thread.

 

[Brrokk]

OK, reading the last few pages has given me a semi-serious idea. How about, when in combat and P2P connection is lost because of networks, server glitch or clog, the ship you are fighting is shown to explode rather than just vanishing. If the other guy clogged it will feel like you won. No-one loses out. Everyone happy?

No, I'm not really serious. But an interesting question is: if this wouldn't make you happy, why not?

 

[Riverside]

OK, reading the last few pages has given me a semi-serious idea. How about, when in combat and P2P connection is lost because of networks, server glitch or clog, the ship you are fighting is shown to explode rather than just vanishing. If the other guy clogged it will feel like you won. No-one loses out. Everyone happy?

No, I'm not really serious. But an interesting question is: if this wouldn't make you happy, why not?

What you describe is functionally no different from what we have now. The first time you see it it's no problem, but the blockade still fails, the pirate doesn't get their loot, the bounty hunters & space police don't drive out the crim-crim.

It also doesn't discourage using an out of game mechanism to avoid an in-game consequence, so consequences continue to be meaningless & ganking continues unabated.

So you propose FDev add a little special effect for no benefit or extra gameplay.

Why do you think it might not make players happy? I'm genuinely interested.

 

[Brrokk]

What you describe is functionally no different from what we have now. The first time you see it it's no problem, but the blockade still fails, the pirate doesn't get their loot, the bounty hunters & space police don't drive out the crim-crim.

It also doesn't discourage using an out of game mechanism to avoid an in-game consequence, so consequences continue to be meaningless & ganking continues unabated.

So you propose FDev add a little special effect for no benefit or extra gameplay.

Why do you think it might not make players happy? I'm genuinely interested.

Agreed, I've not suggested any real change, it's only cosmetic. What the thought experiment does, I think, is separate the feeling of victory when the other ship blows from the imposition of a rebuy on the other player
In other words, do you really just want a PvP victory, or do you want the knowledge that someone, elsewhere in the world, is paying a rebuy?

I take your point about pirates. TBH I'm not sure what happens when a pirate blows up another ship, does he get cargo canisters? I don't think PvP can really be effective as a blockade anyway though, and I don't see how this cosmetic change would encourage gankers.

Thought experiment only, I don't really propose it as a solution.

 

[Mohrgan]

Agreed, I've not suggested any real change, it's only cosmetic. What the thought experiment does, I think, is separate the feeling of victory when the other ship blows from the imposition of a rebuy on the other player
In other words, do you really just want a PvP victory, or do you want the knowledge that someone, elsewhere in the world, is paying a rebuy?

I take your point about pirates. TBH I'm not sure what happens when a pirate blows up another ship, does he get cargo canisters? I don't think PvP can really be effective as a blockade anyway though, and I don't see how this cosmetic change would encourage gankers.

Thought experiment only, I don't really propose it as a solution.

You can't expect them to consider why a CL bothers them so much. You just have to take it as a given. Combat Logging is the bogey-man of the HoBro's. No amount of exploiting or cheating can wipe away the hatred stored up for the CL'er. It is the perfect smoke screen. They gin up complaints in an effort to have FD feel pressured into punishing this one exploit, while they soak up the benefit of all the other exploits/cheats they can find. Just chalk it up to Misdirection.

 

[besieger]

Yep currently the best argument against fixing clogging is that it really annoys the players the game is better without. Anyone who thinks a CL fix would stop or even reduce pointless griefing is ignoring the fact that the griefers only want a fix to increase their victims and gatherable salt.

@Harry if they fix clogging tomorrow will you suddenly join the fuel rats and start helping out noobs, or will you upload some more griefing vids complete with taunting that "ha you couldn't clog" ?.

If logging was fixed today, I would go back to what I used to do... pulling traders and making them do a quiz. they get it right and they live if not well they explode. Most my kills these days are explorers or PVPs anyway. as for the fuel rats, I have done some ratting before, I also take part in much of what cannon does.

 

[Riverside]

Agreed, I've not suggested any real change, it's only cosmetic. What the thought experiment does, I think, is separate the feeling of victory when the other ship blows from the imposition of a rebuy on the other player
In other words, do you really just want a PvP victory, or do you want the knowledge that someone, elsewhere in the world, is paying a rebuy?

I take your point about pirates. TBH I'm not sure what happens when a pirate blows up another ship, does he get cargo canisters? I don't think PvP can really be effective as a blockade anyway though, and I don't see how this cosmetic change would encourage gankers.

Thought experiment only, I don't really propose it as a solution.

A thought experiment is where the proposed solution I linked to came from. I put up a pretty basic & flawed argument in the suggestions section, my idea was pulled quickly apart but better ideas came forward as a result. I'd appreciate it if you would take a look through it, there are some excellent arguments (and counter arguments), there is even a little chat about whether it should be considered an exploit/cheat at all.

I approached responses to the thread with an open mind, as did many other contributors. If you can pull it apart I'd appreciate your (everyone's) input.

Also, FDev said they would monitor the thread, although no evidence of that has come to light. I got the impression CLogging could be next on the list after the 5 for 1 engineers exploit was patched.

 

[Mohrgan]

If logging was fixed today, I would go back to what I used to do... pulling traders and making them do a quiz. they get it right and they live if not well they explode. Most my kills these days are explorers or PVPs anyway. as for the fuel rats, I have done some ratting before, I also take part in much of what cannon does.

What you used to do was cheating I thought. Wow, there must be a lot you used to do.

Pulling traders and quizzing them is one of the very things that I consider griefing. You complain of 'out of game' solutions, but because it suits you, 'out of game' motivations are just fine. Such is life.

 

[besieger]

What you used to do was cheating I thought. Wow, there must be a lot you used to do.

Pulling traders and quizzing them is one of the very things that I consider griefing. You complain of 'out of game' solutions, but because it suits you, 'out of game' motivations are just fine. Such is life.

Now you are just being childish...

 

[Mohrgan]

Now you are just being childish...

I would rather you stick to the topic, and leave me out of this.

What are your views on the comparisons between out-of-game Motivation, and out-of-game solutions?

 

[IndigoWyrd]

This issue cannot be resolved.

Five simple words that would end these threads once and for all.

Because the truth is, there is no resolution.

There's no way to prove someone didn't lose connection "legitimately", be it an ISP fault, power fault, or routing issue.
It just cannot be done. Sure, patterns emerge, especially when we look for them.
Ever see a cloud that looks like a bunny?
Or the face of Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich?
Or anything you've wanted to see in an otherwise disorganized collection of anything at all?

 

[Cageman]

Lets wait and see what the proposed Karma system can / can't do.

 

[Riverside]

Now you are just being childish...

Stay on target...

In your opinion, and experience with other players in a similar position to your own, do you think discouraging CLogging (without any additional deterrent to sealclubbing like the proposed karma system) would allow the playerbase to be more self-policing?

I'm not talking about you taking me out (as an experienced player who should know better & accept my fate), I'm talking about massive overkill where a G5 Cutter or FDL is prancing about in a CG system popping T-6s & Haulers. If your targets don't CLog, would you be less likely to pop them for lols? Would others in your position be more likely to police each other?

If not, the Karma system will eventually come along & will probably be the death of a certain playstyle. But if solving this issue alone would go a long way towards minimising the problem, the karma system might not need to be so draconian.

 

[Riverside]

This issue cannot be resolved.

Five simple words that would end these threads once and for all.

Because the truth is, there is no resolution.

There's no way to prove someone didn't lose connection "legitimately", be it an ISP fault, power fault, or routing issue.
It just cannot be done. Sure, patterns emerge, especially when we look for them.
Ever see a cloud that looks like a bunny?
Or the face of Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich?
Or anything you've wanted to see in an otherwise disorganized collection of anything at all?

It can & I have linked to a workable solution.