An idea that could fix logging?

[Stigbob]

Here is a break down from the release of the game of how combat loggers have affected the game and will continue too, again you also attack me instead of my points though to be fair my points are grounded in facts so attacking them is pointless.

- Release, Not a logger in sight.
- 3 months after release, Loggers and hackers show up, Loggers name and shamed into not doing it again(worked quite well), hacks are patched. happy days
- 5 months after release, More loggers show up, name and shame banned.
- 8 months after release, Combat logs are daily now, groups are complaining and are starting to fall apart
- 12 months after release, Combat logs are daily, some groups are now gone or merged
- Current Day, Combat logs are daily and considered normal, most groups are gone or merged

Some backstory on two groups

- SDC, a known group of players commonly gank anything that moves, this is some background even some of SDC don't know about, SDC was formed by 2 guys who love PVP specifically killing CODE members, this grew into a larger group(about 6 CMDRs) others where picked up due to their skill in PVP, later on at about 8 or 10 CMDRs I was was picked up. this is also oddly enough where I almost met my end at the hands of Fdev perma banning me. though later on I got it over turned due to support not know how their own game worked(odd right?!).

All but the original two CMDRs came from other groups that where abandoned, I would list each and everyone with their reason for joining SDC since they are largely the same, but naming CMDRs is not allowed. the reason SDC is what it is today is because of combat loggers.

I myself joined SDC when the group I was part of fell apart due to combat logging.

Much of CODE joined SDC when combat logging got to the point where it was just the norm.

- CODE, A well known pirate group, now dead or at least mostly dead all because of combat loggers.

Players of this game get fed-up and turn to ganking others, the community of this game and pretend its all the issue of those ganking but in reality the very reason players like us turn to this type of game play is simply because we can get no other game play. I would love to be a real bounty hunter or pirate on the side, no chance with the current state of the game.

We've had griefers since before launch, so your timeline of them only evolving as a result of combat logging is a load of cobblers.

 

[CMDR Cylixx]

Clogging is fine, there's nothing wrong with clogging - sure it's against the 'spirit' of things, but what does it actually do to the attacker? Nothing. You lose zero progress.

There's no reason to engage in PvP except for role playing or seal clubbing - games mechanics don't support PvP as a means of progression, cannot force instance with players on bounty boards; there's absolutely nothing to gesture us to interact in a competitive way, and we are not pitted against each other by minor factions or even superpowers.

FDev haven't even built the game up to the point where combat logging can deny the victor of a reward; any reward or sense of achievement you get from killing another player is entirely ethereal and ultimately worthless.

There will always be people who abuse connectivity in any Peer2Peer arrangement, it comes with thee territory unfortunately, but I know for a fact that if there was actually a game to play here; people might be encouraged to play it instead of feeling bored by "Oh, another griefer" and switching to solo. It might be better to implore Fdev to focus on incorporating some form of matchmaking into the BGS and mission system, because even when a punishment for routine logging is implemented - people are still gonna get wise as to how often they can abuse it.

edit* TLDR There is no game for logging to ruin.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

So I was playing Splatoon 2's splat-fest thing and am loving the game but browsing reddit I saw a post that talked about players pulling their connection during a game they where losing, much to their surprise the game greets them next time with the message below.

http://i.imgur.com/undefined.jpg
Link for broken image: http://i.imgur.com/undefined.jpg

Thoughts?

Since neither the image, nor the link are working, I'll reply with my own solution ( I'm of course, making an assumption as to how the client/p2p architecture in ED is written ) , unfortunately it does override legitimate disconnects ( power outages, wife giving birth, child choking on play-doh again ), but such is the nature of online gaming; it's why we have DRM - people are too cheap to buy a game, so they crack it ... few years later, DRM:


Create a ghost copy of every CMDR's ship in the instance (including cargo, engineered modules etc).

If a player drops out with an ungraceful exit ( i.e.: logging ), the ( new ) host of the instance recreates the opponents ship, and assigns an AI with the same combat ranking as the opponent; the outcome of the encounter is then logged to the server. When the player who logged logs back in, the outcome of the match will be applied to their ship; so logging back in, the user is presented with: either their cargo was stolen ( "you were pirated for 10t of gold" ), ship escaped ( "you managed to escape" ), or a rebuy screen ( "you were killed. ").

 

[Becks]

I have a solution, unfortunately it does override legitimate disconnects

And that's the single reason FDev won't do it. Legitimate disconnects are much more widespread problem than combatlogging.

I can understand how FDev would differentiate between 'graceful' clogging, a taskkill and a disconnect, but differentating between accidental and forced disconnect doesn't seem possible to me.

Clogging is fine

No, it's not. It's just an extremely pathetic way of exploiting out of game elements to give yourself an advantage ingame.

Escaping a player is not that hard. If you're not interested in any more interaction with said player add him to your blocklist as you like.

But CLogging itself is just poor and shows that you don't know how to play the game.

 

[besieger]

I can't find the images referenced in the OP. The links both still go to "undefined.jpg", which isn't helping me with context.

Updated the OP, http://imgur.com/a/IHoEn

 

[Becks]

Updated the OP, http://imgur.com/a/IHoEn

Thanks.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

And that's the single reason FDev won't do it. Legitimate disconnects are much widerspread problem than combatlogging.

I can understand how FDev would differentiate between 'graceful' clogging, a taskkill and a disconnect, but differentating between accidental and forced disconnect doesn't seem possible to me.

Unfortunately, that's just how it works in pretty much every online game; that's the reality of the situation.
In World of Warcraft, your character remains in place, waiting for you to reconnect; meanwhile, other players can simply attack you at will (that, or you just die.. I can't remember which; I think it's the former). Chances are, you will be dead when you log back in.
Was it fair that your internet connection dropped and now you are dead? No, but it does fix the problem.
In my edited post, I say that this is exactly why we have DRM. Some people didn't want to get a job and pay for a game, or believed they should get it for free, or were simply unwilling to pay for it; so company's responded with DRM and other annoying features; whilst those of us who bought the games, had to deal with it.

It's not fair on those who might have genuine connection issues, but it is what it is. You can't hold back and allow the proliferation of things like combat logging simply because some people have real connection issues; you can only do so much to provide for them, after that, the problem is theirs to sort out.

Then again, Frontier would have a lot more control if they simply just introduced dedicated servers. *le sigh*

 

[Hedyn Brand]

Updated the OP, http://imgur.com/a/IHoEn

Cheers - working now. I love that message; it's funny and not too unfriendly.

Legitimate disconnects

Also known as "living in Australia" to some.

 

[Jack Schitt]

- Release, Not a logger in sight.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/16595-Exploiting-Policy?p=396828&viewfull=1#post396828

Alpha discussion forum, May 2014. Seven months prior to launch, the earliest example I can find that refers to combat logging as a previously noted exploit.

There are threads going back to February of the same year that talk about "poor sportsmanship" and have other references to inconvenient disconnects, but the early alpha code was very flaky and it was even more difficult than it is now to differentiate deliberate disconnects from the general networking issues.

But certainly by the middle of 2014 the concept of deliberate "combat logging" was already established in the game. It pre-dates the December 1.0 release by many months. It began pretty much as soon as the first PVP alpha scenarios were introduced. The frequency and response may have changed, but loggers have been here since day one.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I found it!

So, I just looked through 10 pages of history and i can't find my CLogging Fix.

So I'm typing it, again. (This is probably why I can never find it, it's not one of my threads... Lol)

A tagging system.
When you enter any form of danger (anything that requires the 15 second timer to legally exit the game), a "tag" is placed on your save, which contains some information.
When you leave danger, the tag is removed. You'd be none the wiser.

If you illegally combat log, or have a CTD, server error, etc, while in danger, the tag would not be removed.

This tag is then read when loading the game, and using the information it stored, will only allow you to re-enter your previous mode for a limited time.

I particularly like this idea, because if you're just going about your business and suffer a server failure or CTD while in danger, you simply reload the game and continue as normal, in your previous mode, which we all do anyway.

But if you're intentionally combat logging in PvP, your only options are to rejoin the same mode, where your opponent may be waiting. Or don't play at all.

No one is ever barred entirely from the game, and accidental disconnects are not punished.

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead



Give it a few weeks, and I'll be looking for this post again.

And I did end up looking for it. Lol

It's from this thread.

I still can't open the image. Lol
(I blame imgur!)

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[S3B4ST13N]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/16595-Exploiting-Policy?p=396828&viewfull=1#post396828

Alpha discussion forum, May 2014. Seven months prior to launch, the earliest example I can find that refers to combat logging as a previously noted exploit.

There are threads going back to February of the same year that talk about "poor sportsmanship" and have other references to inconvenient disconnects, but the early alpha code was very flaky and it was even more difficult than it is now to differentiate deliberate disconnects from the general networking issues.

But certainly by the middle of 2014 the concept of deliberate "combat logging" was already established in the game. It pre-dates the December 1.0 release by many months. It began pretty much as soon as the first PVP alpha scenarios were introduced. The frequency and response may have changed, but loggers have been here since day one.

No access to that forum.
Could you possibly quote it?

 

[besieger]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/16595-Exploiting-Policy?p=396828&viewfull=1#post396828

Alpha discussion forum, May 2014. Seven months prior to launch, the earliest example I can find that refers to combat logging as a previously noted exploit.

There are threads going back to February of the same year that talk about "poor sportsmanship" and have other references to inconvenient disconnects, but the early alpha code was very flaky and it was even more difficult than it is now to differentiate deliberate disconnects from the general networking issues.

But certainly by the middle of 2014 the concept of deliberate "combat logging" was already established in the game. It pre-dates the December 1.0 release by many months. It began pretty much as soon as the first PVP alpha scenarios were introduced. The frequency and response may have changed, but loggers have been here since day one.

Ok fair enough, in my defense i only played from release and followed reddit, from most players point of view release is where these kinds of issues would recorded for posts like these, I see logging at an alpha stage to be part of the development process that is later weeded out. alas in this case its not dealt with. thanks for the link though.

 

[Becks]

@CMDR S. Russell
And that's okay in WoW because it has a different networking and a PvP flag afaik.

But this is Elite were you get dced ten times a day if your or the servers connection is slightly wonky. Not to mention the multitudes of network issues this game has on top of the regular dcs. Combatlogs only affect a tiny minority compared.

DRMs came because copyright infringements and torrenting were about to become a real problem to the gaming industry. Once Combatlogging becomes a problem which is nearly as significant and has influence on a similiar share of the playerbase, then I approve of such methods. Not at any point prior to that.

 

[Becks]

Would having a cache on an external hard drive help this? I'd have to be 200gb though at least?

Not sure what you mean.

On piracy, why not do what they used to do, physical copy protection system: Lenslok, putting in manual codes, un xeroxable codewheels, uncopyable audio tracks on the disc that are capchas et al?

Can be cracked. Even the newer AAA-titles with modern DRM-protection are cracked fairly fast by certain places in the net.

 

[S3B4ST13N]

Once Combatlogging becomes a problem which is nearly as significant and has influence on a similiar share of the playerbase, then I approve of such methods. Not at any point prior to that.

Then we can agree to disagree; being a developer myself I prefer to fix a problem and then get my customers to adapt to it; not let the problem persist because it might inconvenience a small percentage of them.

 

[Spiridon]

I mean the starsystem basics could be part cached on a large external drive maybe, that's constantly updated that'd act as a 'buffer' gainst disconnects?
Which came first, games getting dear which caused folk to pirate or piracy which caused games to get dearer...or?

This.

Been there since Spectrum and C64, they were expensive as hell to our pocket money. So some clever guys from the school figured... etc.

 

[Spiridon]

Or... you can do what I do and wait a couple of years for it to come out on £4.99 budget label, plus buy games from 15 years ago A lot of them were far more thoughtful and original also. Or even GOG.com & Steam for 99p! That's cheaper than the 1.99 Mastertronic and 2.99 Mastertronic MAD series. . I got Divine Divinity and Thief I, II, & III last month, charming adventures. I'm abnormal with videogames, 90% of them I do not buy on any format.

Back then when I was 15, if you told me to wait a couple of years I'd take you for a mad man. Even a week was too long. And if you start that gibberish, those strange words like GOG dot com or steam, I'd knew you are mad. (or try to take a kid to a steam bath)

Cassette tapes, dude. Peeeeeeeee-ueeee-weeeee-ee-ee-eeeeeeee.....

 

[Morbad]

I mean the starsystem basics could be part cached on a large external drive maybe, that's constantly updated that'd act as a 'buffer' gainst disconnects?
Which came first, games getting dear which caused folk to pirate or piracy which caused games to get dearer...or?

Why not an option like this:

Non DRC copy £80
DRC copy £20...

Not sure how any such buffer could have the effect I think you are talking about.

Then we can agree to disagree; being a developer myself I prefer to fix a problem and then get my customers to adapt to it; not let the problem persist because it might inconvenience a small percentage of them.

Banning or punishing people for every disconnect, without identifying patterns first, is going to inconvenience a lot of people. I don't have any statistics on hand, but even as someone who has probably reported three figures worth of apparent combat logs, I would be utterly astounded if the deliberate disconnection rate was as high as the combined rates of network, software, hardware, and electrical anomalies that can result in loss of connection without the will of the target.

The only real solution I see, that's viable from a technical perspective, is good telemetry tracking and an equally solid automated flagging system. Once a pattern of deliberate disconnections is revealed, permanent removal of that account from the game would be more than justifiable. Refusing to sell more copies to the same purchaser would be a plus, but probably couldn't happen.

Or... you can do what I do and wait a couple of years for it to come out on £4.99 budget label, plus buy games from 15 years ago A lot of them were far more thoughtful and original also. Or even GOG.com & Steam for 99p! That's cheaper than the 1.99 Mastertronic and 2.99 Mastertronic MAD series. . I got Divine Divinity and Thief I, II, & III last month, charming adventures. I'm abnormal with videogames, 90% of them I do not buy on any format.

People would pirate games if they were free and companies will continue to charge so much per unit that they destroy their own profits through misplaced pride rather than consider economic realities.

 

[Becks]

Banning or punishing people for every disconnect, without identifying patterns first, is going to inconvenience a lot of people. I don't have any statistics on hand, but even as someone who has probably reported three figures worth of apparent combat logs, I would be utterly astounded if the deliberate disconnection rate was as high as the combined rates of network, software, hardware, and electrical anomalies that can result in loss of connection without the will of the target.

The only real solution I see, that's viable from a technical perspective, is good telemetry tracking and an equally solid automated flagging system. Once a pattern of deliberate disconnections is revealed, permanent removal of that account from the game would be more than justifiable. Refusing to sell more copies to the same purchaser would be a plus, but probably couldn't happen.

That's what I mean.

On the first taskkill a warning, on the second taskkill a temporary shadowban, with the third taskkill a permanent shadowban.

 

[NeilF]

So I was playing Splatoon 2's splat-fest thing and am loving the game but browsing reddit I saw a post that talked about players pulling their connection during a game they where losing, much to their surprise the game greets them next time with the message below.

http://i.imgur.com/undefined.jpg
Link for broken image: http://imgur.com/a/IHoEn

Thoughts?

Let's get the C&P mechanic in the game, and see where we are with that... Then let's see how it can build up a picture of repeat "disconnections" and how it can apply a penalty.