PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[Phoenix_Dfire]

Pirate*

Really?

In my experiance, Pirates don't notmally get people after them (Bounties arn't that big)

 

[Stigbob]

Lots of players lost most of their engineered modules (not just the exploited ones) and some had account bans. Does that not qualify as punishment? Seems like it does to me.

Well I only have second hand info on it, but there seems to be equal numbers of "gah me modules" and "lol FDEV missed my modules" and "I lost my modules but already have replacements". It all depends which cheat you want to believe.

I choose not to believe them at all and go with the FDEV version which was no account bans but exploited modules were removed.

Likewise cloggers should be made to rebuy their ships they combat logged with, and lose everything they were carrying at the time, including fighter crew..

All you need to do now is reliably identify them.

 

[Stigbob]

What a PR mess...

Yep, SDC really shot themselves in the foot with this one.

Still look on the bright side FDEV came out of it smelling of roses, correctly identifying the false reports was quite an impressive feat.

 

[Loskene]

 

[Lateralus]

All you need to do now is reliably identify them.

That's where pattern analysis comes in... Fdev said they were going to do this over a year ago, but the karma system that Sandro has frequently talked about never materialised and has not been mentioned for beyond.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Just some basic points on this in the order they happen and the implications

1. I buy a PC - This is now my property and I have the right to decide what I do with it, when it is on and what it is connected to at all times.
2. I accept an EULA from Microsoft that gives permission to use the software as intended - This includes the task manager and 'Alt+F4' to kill any tasks that I chose, see above for reasons why.
3. I buy a license for a game such as Elite and accept the EULA which not only contradicts point number 2 but also tries to limit my ability to control my own hardware.

In short there is no way that any games company can stop me from doing anything with property that I own i.e. The hardware.

If anyone chose's to turn of their router, un-plug a cable or kill a task they are within their rights to do so. Software house however know that no-one would take them to court over being banned due to combat logging as the company can destroy you financially with legal fees long before the case ever makes it before a judge and they play on this by imposing terms on us.

All of that said I do not condone combat logging nor do I think it is right to use the menu to leave the game while in combat but at times needs must for some. Yes combat logging is a problem but the ability to do anything about it is a legal minefield. Ultimately though you have the right to do what ever you wish with your hardware at anytime... Always remember this and never accept the false control imposed on you by a software house.

Oh, come on. Stop giving us that semi-legal crap.

It's easy: People don't like to play with particular other people. That is all.

 

[DukeIronHand]

They'd be the same as all those guys trying to kill Harry Potter after the Salome debacle. Respect to them for having a go, but most of them died quite quickly..

Was this with the Engineered cheat modules or without?
My timeline on all the SDC game wrecking and cheating is fuzzy.

That's where pattern analysis comes in... Fdev said they were going to do this over a year ago, but the karma system that Sandro has frequently talked about never materialised and has not been mentioned for beyond.

Pattern analysis?
Hope so if something is going to ever be done. I get disconnected all the time. Not everyone lives in the city with a big fat internet cable.

 

[Red Anders]

Hmmm I recognise quite a few players who have gank....err asymmetrically PvP'd with me! They mostly (ie 'all'!) fall into the 'indignation about the unfairness of CL-ing' camp!

I must say, when people lack the ability to understand the concepts of irony & self-awareness, it gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling of smugness! Tbf though, that feeling rarely leaves me...like now, 'who here, is still on holiday?' No? Oh dear, that's a shame![big grin]

Here's the thing. Asymmetrical pvp is not against the game rules. Combat logging is. You're mentally creating a false equivalence between the two things because you don't like one of them. We can summarise this as 'I reject your reality and substitute my own'.

I'm always astonished by the attitudes to combat logging on this forum.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

pirates (which I have no problem with as long as they warn and use hatch breakers)

With how ineffective hatch breakers are even without point defense, ECM, or just boosting away faster than they fly being a hard counter ... you're basically saying "pirates (which I have no problem with as long as they're not effective)" here.

Piracy to be profitable compared with trading [1] needs to steal a substantial fraction of a trader's cargo hold on an averagely-successful pirating attempt. I tend to fly a multirole Python (192 capacity) when carrying cargo, and it would take ...
- probably about 10 minutes to hand over if I dumped it for them while stationary in convenient blocks and they had a decent size collector swarm (plus however long it takes them to convince me to be stationary and cooperative). I can't even dump all and leave them to it because of the 20-barrel instance limit!
- best part of an hour if they use hatchbreakers (I'll have knocked their shields down by then even with the less-than-optimal weapons that ship has, and with their need to have the cargo hatch down and fly slow and level so their collectors can work properly, they'll only be hitting me with turrets)
- not even possible to get all of it if they go for shooting the cargo hatch
(And I have crimes off, so they won't get police ships interfering after the first minute, either. Most traders won't be so considerate...)

Sure, someone can use hatchbreakers to get a few tonnes out of a trader before they jump out. That might even cover the cost of the fuel and limpets used, and the post-interdiction module repairs if they don't submit...

The only time piracy in Elite Dangerous made sense was for that extremely brief period when everyone was still in Sidewinders.

[1] i.e. accounting for the fact that it's illegal and therefore people will try to kill you, resulting in extra expenses, a pirate should be making a little more average profit/hour than a trader with the same class of ship.

 

[Cmdr. Jägermeister]

I'm not seeing it splashed across the pages of magazines, or the front page of the BBC, so...no, not really. It's just Thursday.

Well.. last year it was featured in several magazines. Why shouldn´t they pick it up again?

 

[Vorxian]

Looking beyond the embers of bridges glowing behind us
To a glimpse of how green it was on the other side
Steps taken forwards but sleepwalking back again
Dragged by the force of some inner tide

At a higher altitude with flag unfurled
We reached the dizzy heights of that dreamed of world

Encumbered forever by desire and ambition
There's a hunger still unsatisfied
Our weary eyes still stray to the horizon
Though down this road we've been so many times

The grass was greener
The light was brighter
The taste was sweeter
The nights of wonder
With friends surrounded
The dawn mist glowing
The water flowing
The endless river

Forever and ever

Time to put the case to rest, we have an FDEV response, it's all good. If I'm not back again this time tomorrowCarry on, carry on as if nothing really matters..

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Well.. last year it was featured in several magazines. Why shouldn´t they pick it up again?

Maybe the media got the gist to identify fake news. There is still some hope.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Exploiters should have been made to pay back all the material they swindled the engineers for, before being allowed to engineer again.

see now THIS would get my vote. all ENG modules confiscated..... and an account ban from engineers till all paid back. once they are then the CMDR is considered square with the engineers and they are allowed to gain access again, once rep is built up again. fully fair, fully logical from an in game perspective..... do this AND FD clamp down on clogging and there would be full support from me.... and one would assume the OP as well right?

 

[Achilles7]

Furthermore, while being very critical of past actions of SDC, you cannot hold that against them when they focus attention on an act of cheating. It doesn't matter who reports it when it's factual and done honestly. That only deserves kudos.

Unfortunately, in this case the issue is clouded by the OP's past behaviour - it's like Harvey Weinstein lecturing on women's rights in the workplace...

....it just goes down badly! *cough* so to speak! [blah]

 

[Stigbob]

That's where pattern analysis comes in... Fdev said they were going to do this over a year ago, but the karma system that Sandro has frequently talked about never materialised and has not been mentioned for beyond.

I think the pattern analysis has revealed lots of menu logging, high waking and connection errors with a very small number of real clogs buried under a pile of false reports. They would have done something if it was bad as people make out.

I don't think you appreciate how wonky your connection can get, there was one of these threads a while back where I was updating it with my disconnection errors as and when they happened, it was something like six in an hour and a quarter.

 

[Weps]

I've just jumped to page 9 to read the FDEV response, which basically says.... well... nothing. As much as I struggle to extract the main idea from that piece of text, I can't.

I feel I'm losing the last bits of hope I had in FDEV. Just waiting for RNGineers 2.0: The Wheel of Fortune Strikes Back with a Vengeance, so that my descent into madness is complete.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Well.. last year it was featured in several magazines. Why shouldn´t they pick it up again?

Because it's still largely a non-event for the bulk of the players, and the validity of the SDC 'investigation' is questionable at best.

 

[Cosmos]

Hey guys,

I've responded to this thread over on Reddit and pasted the response below as well.

"Good evening everyone,

I understand the concerns that have been addressed in this thread and would like to take this opportunity to reassure you all that the team responsible for investigating issues such as cheats and combat logging have reviewed and verified that their processes have been followed, and that the account was reviewed by the team as part of these reports.


A huge number of factors go into reviewing each report and I can personally confirm, having been a part of the team that reviews these reports, that action is taken on a regular basis. However, we do not discuss the process, tools or systems for detection publically, as doing so would help people avoid detection.


While we understand the frustration caused when met with combat logging, continuous attempts at uncovering our investigation methods is not the way to assist with this being dealt with, as any information we give could be used to avoid detection.
As you likely know, combat logging is something that has been discussed openly with the community by our development team. There have been discussions and feedback on concepts such as a Karma system (here’s an example). This is one idea being considered in order to address such issues.


I’m sure you can appreciate that finding a solution that allows for automatic detection against rule breakers while also being fair on honest players is something that holds a number of challenges. It is something under discussion and active consideration but we have nothing to announce right now.


Kind regards,


Paige"

Yeah pull the other one.

 

[Loskene]

Unfortunately, in this case the issue is clouded by the OP's past behaviour - it's like Harvey Weinstein lecturing on women's rights in the workplace...

....it just goes down badly! *cough* so to speak! [blah]

Care to elaborate on OP's "past behaviour"? Rinzler has always come across as the most reasonable and mature of the group, not to mention one of the best pilots. To my knowledge he never cheated or had his modules taken away, so what's the problem?

 

[Lateralus]

Was this with the Engineered cheat modules or without?
My timeline on all the SDC game wrecking and cheating is fuzzy.

As Powderpanic already said, the likeliehood of a seasoned PvP player killing a PvP casual was not really affected by the exploits, the outcome would have been the same.

Pattern analysis?
Hope so if something is going to ever be done. I get disconnected all the time. Not everyone lives in the city with a big fat internet cable.

If you disconnect everytime you are in trouble with other players then it is suspicious, citing connection speeds/reliability should not be used an excuse to not implement some kind of punitive measure.