PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[Asp Explorer]

Ah.

But that'll only work until someone hacks it.

True - but as things that meaningfully affect the account are all handled server-side, it's not as much of a deal as you may think.

However, back in the early days - all sorts of gubbins were going on locally, and FD were really a bit slow off the mark to take care of things. Many people did nefarious things and ended up with oodles of ill-gotten credits and pathetic in-game happenings. Once FD woke up though, they did fix things. To be fair though - this was all pointed out to them way, way before release, and to this day many people are not sure why it wasn't looked into sooner.

 

[Martian Successor]

How do you identify disconnections? Is there a "heart beat" ping function in the game that constantly checks for active executable?

FD have a way of keeping a log on players activities and can even revert a player's actions up to a point. I frequently read posts about FD's support team assisting players that file a support ticket for stuff like accidentally clearing their save, influence numbers not registering properly in the BGS, losing a ship because they had no rebuy, etc. All of those imply that FD can revert back to a player's previous game state which itself would imply they have a system that logs a player's actions and allows the devs to read/browse through them.

Ah.

But that'll only work until someone hacks it.

They probably have an anti-cheat system to prevent that, although I'm no expert so I don't know.

 

[JosiahD]

....... this disincentivizes meaningful PvP gameplay in a game billed as a space MMO.

...

Look, bottom line is both this 'investigation' and the previous one were both specifically touting combat logging as a specifically PvP issue. The above is a direct quote from the OP, which was also specifically stated in the initial 'investigation'. Yet neither makes any reference to PvE impacts, focusing instead on PvP activities. Now, as that argument is gaining no headway or sympathy, the assertion now includes PvE impacts of combat logging. The initial baiting of Frontier on this has been made by certain PvPers specifically from a PvP perspective, not PvE.

Of course, combat logging can have second or third order effects on PvE, but that's not how the 'investigation' has been presented. I can draw no conclusion other than that SDC did not consider any PvE impacts important enough to include in their 'investigation' at the time. Now it seems to be convenient for some to include it in some effort to widen the drama.

Combat logging is cheating, period. No problem there. But the original argument was based on PvP issues and extension of that into PvE just seems desperate, almost as if an acknowledgement that the PvP impacts don't carry enough weight in their own right. It would not be the OP's intent of course for that to be the case.

Remember though that this was touted as a PvP issue by SDC themselves by virtue of the manner in which they presented their case....both times. Hence many of us have obviously argued the toss on PvP grounds. Comes back to my previous assertion that we need a more in depth, unbiased examination of the scale of combat logging across the board if people want to pursue this.

 

[Han Zulu]

They probably have an anti-cheat system to prevent that, although I'm no expert so I don't know.

Something I learned many years ago, there's always a way...

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Five occurrences at one month intervals is beyond trivial, if that's the true extent of clogging then FDEV should ignore it.



On the matter of the word fake I use it because these were not clogs witnessed and recorded by players, they were prearranged clogs organized between co-operating players specifically to submit a false report of combat logging. They are about as far from being real as they could possibly be.

​

Nope they have an issue with me, hence KOS listing me and saying they were coming to get me in the game because I once started a thread they didn't like. I find them hilarious. A bit of feedback at this point, they need to seriously up their game they haven't even come close.

On the subject of credibility dressing five clogs over five months up as a big deal is where it falls flat, add deliberately submitting false reports and it's non-existent.

Stigbob, your posts are murder to read if one is browsing with the forum's white theme.

 

[Martian Successor]

Combat logging is cheating, period.

That's where your statement should have ended. The rest is just trying to belittle people who want the problem of combat logging solved across the entire game, not just stopping at PvP.

This thread expanded into a discussion about the problem of combat logging on the whole game and finding a solution to that. Who cares if SDC's original pitch was about the PvP aspects of it? They are primarily a PvP oriented group therefore that is their major angle of interest into it. There is no problem with others adding to the discussion about combat logging based on their concerns about it. It's called having a discussion and freedom of speech.

 

[Martian Successor]

Something I learned many years ago, there's always a way...

True. But at least some progress would have been made and FD can worry about catching the hackers - a much smaller group due to the skillset involved in hacking - while their system checks against everybody who isn't a hacker capable of fooling it.

 

[PeLucheuh]

I don't get it. You quoted me saying something, said I was wrong and then immediately repeated the same idea i was trying to convey right after wards. DO you feel like your correcting me because I feel like we are on the same page? Im never once said that cloggin isnt an exploit/cheat. People will always play the game their own way but not a single game has this many people whining on both sides of the fence. FDev is trying to come up with ways to fix this and just because you want to take the ability away to play the game because "I want what I want and I want it now". Yes this has been an issue for some time. Yes its is all cheating so now if I have somebody come back to me and said Im condoning cheating or combat logging again you must now understand that you are not reading my words right. Im done explaining things over and over so you can try to implicate me as one of these people trying to destroy the game. I have $14 billion in assets and I dont combat log. I have no need to. I dont tell others to combat log. But most of you that saw my comments saw them as contradictory to you own beliefs and just wanted to argue. I even spent the time to see your point but didnt receive any of that respect back. I mean if you cant see the whole picture as to why these things arent fixed yet then Im happy you are not the one running this game. We would have even less players playing the game and even more cry babies getting exactly what they want and less of what FDev wants. Go tell Leonardo da Vinci that his Mona Lisa was done wrong. I wonder what type of response you would get?

read again : Combat logging exploit is NOT exclusive to Open and PvP.

You are trying to argue that combat logging is mainly caused by griefing and impact a small minority. I am proving you this is a wrong assumption by using solid evidence.

 

[TiltControls]

Oh wow, what's this?! If I didn't know any better, I'd almost say that's a way to abuse task killing that doesn't involve player vs player interaction whatsoever. That's neat

 

[Stigbob]

Stigbob, your posts are murder to read if one is browsing with the forum's white theme.

https://i.imgur.com/zx2I8KI.png

The autofont settings go crazy whenever you cut and paste recently, it might be better now or maybe not.

 

[Riverside]

Oh wow, what's this?! If I didn't know any better, I'd almost say that's a way to abuse task killing that doesn't involve player vs player interaction whatsoever. That's neat

So a fairly dull task can be repeated over & over slightly more quickly? This changes everything. The mods must surely put this sideshow back onto the main stage now :|

The autofont settings go crazy whenever you cut and paste recently, it might be better now or maybe not.

I always choose to paste as plain text rather than just paste.

 

[Yaffle]

I always choose to paste as plain text rather than just paste.

Off-topic, if you select the text (alt-A will select it all, Mac users may need squigglythingcmd-A) then click on the second icon in the editor, with two As and a x it will remove all formatting.

 

[JosiahD]

read again : Combat logging exploit is NOT exclusive to Open and PvP.

I agree, but neither of SDC's 'investigations' presented the issue in anything other than a PvP context. Where is the inclusion of observation of the same player combat logging on an NPC and demonstration of a measurable impact on the BGS of one player combat logging 5 times in 5 months? The problem is it is very difficult to measure that from the player in isolation from BGS impacts other players may be inducing at the same time. And therefore also difficult to demonstrate just how big an issue it is, in both PvP and PvE contexts, but that's what is needed in order to fully understand the scale of the problem and determine then the best ways to deal with it. I presume Frontier has better telemetry than we do, and we need to see the outcome of the C&P and karma changes to come.

 

[Red Anders]

Oh wow, what's this?! If I didn't know any better, I'd almost say that's a way to abuse task killing that doesn't involve player vs player interaction whatsoever. That's neat

Funniest thing about that is I'm fairly sure the reason it happens to begin with was FDev's 'fix' for people dropping connection on jumping into a neutron star system and logging back in to find themselves trapped in the jets. The law of unintended consequences in full effect.

 

[PeLucheuh]

I agree, but neither of SDC's 'investigations' presented the issue in anything other than a PvP context. Where is the inclusion of observation of the same player combat logging on an NPC and demonstration of a measurable impact on the BGS of one player combat logging 5 times in 5 months? The problem is it is very difficult to measure that from the player in isolation from BGS impacts other players may be inducing at the same time. And therefore also difficult to demonstrate just how big an issue it is, in both PvP and PvE contexts, but that's what is needed in order to fully understand the scale of the problem and determine then the best ways to deal with it. I presume Frontier has better telemetry than we do, and we need to see the outcome of the C&P and karma changes to come.

What are you talking about : An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

The best way to deal with a cheat is to fix it ASAP.

In order to fully understand the scale of the problem you have to use your knowledge and understanding of the game mechanics like we did to give PvP gameplay impact example. It is not an investigation but a factual approach.

Here are clear examples on how Combat loggin impact PVE and by this way the BGS :

But that's just the thing. PvP indeed means almost nothing in this game. Combat logging actually has more significant impact on the PvE side of the game. The BGS affects the game more than PvP. Powerplay affects the game more than PvP. CGs affect the game more than PvP. Even exploration affects the game more than PvP as first discoveries create a tangible footprint in the game world.

What's more frustrating? Not seeing an explosion in Open or not being able to keep up with the amount of exploited influence numbers/merits/CG goal completion that a cheating player can generate in the BGS/PP/CGs. I'd say both suck but one obviously impacts a larger portion of the game than the other.

I don't think it's right for the developer to ignore an issue just because it affects PvP, quite frankly that would mean they are a terrible developer. But even more so if the developer ignores an issue that can be used to bypass almost every intended mechanic in their game. Combat logging is a game-wide problem that cannot just be brushed under the carpet. It needs to be addressed at some point soon.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/398876-Task-Kills-For-Dollar-Bills

 

[jasonbarron]

I was going to agree and suggest putting the confirmation at the start.

But since you want to get all militant about players with poor connections, FDEV sold me a game with offline mode then dropped it prior to release. There's nothing in the EULA/TOS or specs about speed or stability just broadband. They could alter it for new customers in theory but it wouldn't be retrospective.

Looks like your plan won't work.

I'm not getting militant, I'm simply offering a common sense approach to fixing the issue.

Wow. I have now explained myself multiple times and even had others explain my point multiple times but if you hear that I am condoning cheating or been saying that grieving should allow combat logging then you twisted my words into you own illogical conversation. I can see why so many on here feel threatened by my comments or feelings on how FDev is moving forward. The idea of having a friendly conversation seems really lost on most people. Like for some reason you think I’m attacking your personal character. I guess I had just as many upvotes on these posts as I got people crying foul. Just here to better the game. I’m not stupid enough to think only my thoughts and play styles matter. The game is too damn big to focus on any one of these things to try and include everyone into just what YOU want to do in Elite. If at any point we are risking our daily active users just so such a small minority can get their kills in open on other CMDRs. I get it, its cheating accross the board for all type of combat logging but the only one that effects other players is the one done against other players. Never did I once say that there wasn’t any other way. Just the only way that truly effects you.

Nor am I "twisting your words and acting like you're attacking my personal character." It sounds like you are becoming emotional about this discussion and I recommend not taking so much of this as a personal attack on you, either.

The bottom line is that when people on this thread act like clogging cannot be solved without solving "griefing" if not first then at least at the same time, they are either painfully unaware of the nature of the issue...or tacitly defending clogging itself because "griefers are the root cause of the problem." If that is not the case and you personally truly don't feel that way, then you need to re-tool your arguments to reflect that.

I like the Rolling Stone's as much as the next guy, but when it comes to clogging I have no sympathy for the devil

 

[Stigbob]

I'm not getting militant, I'm simply offering a common sense approach to fixing the issue.

A common sense approach would be wait and see if the C&P karma changes fix it, since they are already in development and it's a fairly minor issue.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

A common sense approach would be wait and see if the C&P karma changes fix it, since they are already in development and it's a fairly minor issue.

Said that a few pages ago. The same folks keep repeating their little forum meta-game. It's adorable!

 

[JosiahD]

What are you talking about : An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

The best way to deal with a cheat is to fix it ASAP.

In order to fully understand the scale of the problem you have to use your knowledge and understanding of the game mechanics like we did to give PvP gameplay impact example. It is not an investigation but a factual approach.

Here are clear examples on how Combat loggin impact PVE and by this way the BGS :

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/398876-Task-Kills-For-Dollar-Bills

I've already stated, several times, that I agree that combat logging can have an impact on PvE. But you people are acting like the sky is falling or the world is going to end because of it. First the sky was falling in regard to PvP, now the world is coming to an end because it impacts on PvE. It's a cheat, but not exactly a game breaking one (although arguably it can be in PvP if it occurs repeatedly). I agree that any cheat needs to be fixed ASAP, but it has to be fixed in the right way. I am not convinced it has as big an impact (from an overall game perspective), in either PvP or PvE, as you and others think it does. Even your link above in regard to PvE impacts only describes it as moderate severity (for that particular case mind you). I'm sure in moment-to-moment PvP gameplay it's downright frustrating. But so has been for some time griefing/ganking that results in little to no consequence for the perpetrator but heavy losses on the victim. That's not to condone combat logging, not at all, but in order to prioritise fixes and ensure they are dealing with the problem correctly, you have to fully understand the scale of the problem and the root causes/motivations for it. I simply don't take the word of disaffected players as gospel when it comes to the best way to remediate it. Frontier clearly think they have that understanding, hence the proposed C&P and karma changes. While I and others are happy to wait to assess the impacts of those changes when released, others are not it seems. I'm not yet convinced myself that the proposed changes will remedy antisocial behaviour or things like combat logging, but I'm prepared to give Frontier the chance to see if it works.

Not an investigation huh? Must be inconvenient that the title of both the previous iteration and this one include the word 'investigation'....

 

[Gunnet]

Glad to hear Support's ability to correctly judge the merits of reports hasn't diminished.

At the same time, Frontier could probably do with exercising a little less lenience towards players who probe their anti-cheating systems for weaknesses. Especially if any of those players have already been punished for cheating in the past.