PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[DukeIronHand]

MATURE, so mature, sat outside of CG stations (and sometimes INSIDE) killing everybody without regard because he can. Have you ever watched an SDC stream? Mature is the last word I would use! So funny!

Right. So now CLogging is a big deal to these types. It's not fair! Guess station ramming, pad blocking, and "guarding" the station slot gets dull after a while. Course, in SDC's defense, why are you clowns CLogging? Why the **** are you in Open anyway? People are still surprised by the LCD types in a online game?
What exactly are you expecting from groups and people like SDC after the "pattern analysis" of their in-game activities?
Gracious. Play in Open. Cheat, CLog, grief, gank. Who cares? It's Open.

 

[Stealthie]

Pattern analysis would only flag players who disconnect while under attack or interdiction multiple times.. that's kind of the whole point. Nobody expects fdev to trawl over logs and manually apply every penalty - they would have to write an algorithm to flag certain players who consistently avoid PvP related consequences. It wouldn't flag those who simply disconnect a lot generally.

So, anybody could avoid detection simply by task-killing when they're not in combat, as well as when they are, thus rendering any effort required to implement such a system a complete waste of time.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

How is this fake? It´s a well known issue.

Well-known doesn't mean it's true. I wish people had found out about that already.

 

[Kaybe]

I fully agree that the current C&P system is a steaming pile of dingo's kidneys that needs a full overhaul. However, the punishment section is going to be laughably irrelevant if people can just taskkill to avoid said punishment.

Newbie killers and trash-tier CG gankers will continue doing what they're currently doing regardless of whatever system is implemented until combat logging is punished.

Perhaps, but I don't think combat logging itself should be addressed until the crime and punishment update. In fact, I think it should be dealt with at the exact same time. The issue with addressing it right now, prior to the update, is that I have no doubt that there will be many players, some from your group and some not, that feel a need to go full texas chainsaw massacre prior to that update just so they can get some consequence free anti social behaviour in before it's no longer anywhere near as easy to do so. I don't like combat logging, but I still can sympathize with those that do as most of the time, the combat loggers are not PVPers but players that don't want to lose some 20 million in insurance money + another 5 to 10 million on cargo by being forced to engage in a battle they cannot possibly win, right? A powerful ship decked out for PVP can fairly easily mulch on non-PVP equipped ships.

Now, if there's an actual permanent consequence to doing so, then so be it. Risk/Reward. You want to be a murderer? Then be a murderer. As long as you accept the risks involved, just like people in the real world accept the risks for being criminal. But until that time, combat logging is a non-issue as far as I'm personally concerned as fixing just that only enhances one of the core problems of this game, which is to say all the players being driven out of Open.

 

[Lateralus]

If someone has said that highwaking is cheating when it quite patently isn't, then yes, that person is wrong.

We weren't discussing that.. Powerderpanics views on high-waking do not invalidate every other opinion he has. That is the very definition of a strawman argument.

So, anybody could avoid detection simply by task-killing when they're not in combat, as well as when they are, thus rendering any effort required to implement such a system a complete waste of time.

Whys that? I never said they should be immune to flagging for PvP disconnects.

 

[Loskene]

So, anybody could avoid detection simply by task-killing when they're not in combat, as well as when they are, thus rendering any effort required to implement such a system a complete waste of time.

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

We weren't discussing that.. Powerderpanics views on high-waking do not invalidate every other opinion he has. That is the very definition of a strawman argument.

The problem being of course that if a poster has a track record of acting like a fool then one is inclined to discount their opinions, often without even reading them. Why bother? They're probably just being foolish again.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Just some basic points on this in the order they happen and the implications

1. I buy a PC - This is now my property and I have the right to decide what I do with it, when it is on and what it is connected to at all times.
2. I accept an EULA from Microsoft that gives permission to use the software as intended - This includes the task manager and 'Alt+F4' to kill any tasks that I chose, see above for reasons why.
3. I buy a license for a game such as Elite and accept the EULA which not only contradicts point number 2 but also tries to limit my ability to control my own hardware.

In short there is no way that any games company can stop me from doing anything with property that I own i.e. The hardware.

If anyone chose's to turn of their router, un-plug a cable or kill a task they are within their rights to do so. Software house however know that no-one would take them to court over being banned due to combat logging as the company can destroy you financially with legal fees long before the case ever makes it before a judge and they play on this by imposing terms on us.

All of that said I do not condone combat logging nor do I think it is right to use the menu to leave the game while in combat but at times needs must for some. Yes combat logging is a problem but the ability to do anything about it is a legal minefield. Ultimately though you have the right to do what ever you wish with your hardware at anytime... Always remember this and never accept the false control imposed on you by a software house.

I have argued the same for a long while. But it was pointed out to me that Frontier has the right to say: sure, you can use our software, sure you can do whatever with your pc. But if your actions with your hardware causes a term violation, we also have the right to hold that against you.

 

[MajorM3ss]

If you cheat in an online game your account should be bloody well banned, and if you want to play again, buy another copy. That's how reputable games companies do it and it's worked just fine so far.

Although i agree with this perspective Loskene, it is to harsh if you ask me, better to limit "in Game" content, or shadowban i think, but first and foremost, there needs to be clarification, because in all this hubub, "Griefing", from the gamers perspective, is largely considered acceptable, whereas i think it is also an exploit, and should be trampled all over by a code of conduct.

 

[NeilF]

This is a nigh on total non-issue in my book.

Until we get a sensible C&P (karma) mechanic employed penalise and rein in cynical destruction, which can then also be employed to dish out logical penalties for repeat combat logging too, why waste time/effort on this?

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

I have argued the same for a long while. But it was pointed out to me that Frontier has the right to say: sure, you can use our software, sure you can do whatever with your pc. But if your actions with your hardware causes a term violation, we also have the right to hold that against you.

This can be found in just about any EULA in software, for decades now. We don't "own" the software, we "license it." And the license to the grantee can be terminated by the granter.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

We weren't discussing that.. Powerderpanics views on high-waking do not invalidate every other opinion he has. That is the very definition of a strawman argument.

.

its a fair point but the simple fact is a persons views are generally regarded as a whole.. ie probably NOT everything Donald Trump says is utter drivel.... I still tend to ignore most of what he says.
Sometimes the person who is delivering a message DOES affect how much stock is put in that message.

would a skilled PvPer beat me in combat in equal ships? probably yes. but that said, i DO hold my own in CQC which is the only PvP i take any interest in in ED because everyone is essentially equal..... it could be the skills of those who are the supposed kings of PvP on this forum could be matched or even bettered by others.. we just dont know.

but given PPs trumped up views on his own skills and what he defines as skilled vs non skilled, i just find his view biased.... (and note i said biased not flat out wrong so arguably that would be your strawman)

PS you still have not managed to comment on my point either which was 100% on point and was my response to you in something you suggested

 

[Lateralus]

The problem being of course that if a poster has a track record of acting like a fool then one is inclined to discount their opinions, often without even reading them. Why bother? They're probably just being foolish again.

Fool says you, but he has a lot of knowledge of the game. Anyway this is a tangent, with the original point I was trying to make lost to the abyss.

 

[JRok]

I've never pulled the plug, but I've dabbled in an exploit here and there so who am I to judge what the next guy does.

OK, it effects a griefers game play because they like to see someones ship go "pop" and when it doesn't they can't accept that as a victory. Then clinging to the copy of the "rules" they get all upset and post up on here?

That's probably the majority of the ones who are miffed about it... for what it's worth, if someone attacks me and I get the upper hand and then they pull the plug... "hah!... I scared em' off the internet"... I think it's hilarious. [haha]

 

[bootsam]

Oh get off yer high horse.

That exploit was used by PvE and PvP player alike. It was simply brought to public awareness by PvPers and has been used as a strawman since.

Oh, I see so strawman is ok for you but not for anyone else. Yeah, yeah. I really am wetting them at the latter part of your post. Public aweness. hahaha.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

I have argued the same for a long while. But it was pointed out to me that Frontier has the right to say: sure, you can use our software, sure you can do whatever with your pc. But if your actions with your hardware causes a term violation, we also have the right to hold that against you.

Which is a valid thing for Frontier to say except they also know and hope we don't that contracts and the order you agree to them in has a lot of importance hence when we agree to M$'s EULA before installing any game that contract holds more weight. If any games company were ever taken to court over this they would have a hard battle on their hands if M$'s agreement is bought up in the users defence.

Regardless CLOG'ers are vile.

I just do not like to be told when I can turn my PC on or off, I pay the bills not Frontier or any other software house. If Frontier want to pay the electric bill for when I am running Elite then fine, I'll run it as long as they want, until then... Hands of my hardware!

 

[StiTch]

Just some basic points on this in the order they happen and the implications

1. I buy a PC - This is now my property and I have the right to decide what I do with it, when it is on and what it is connected to at all times.
2. I accept an EULA from Microsoft that gives permission to use the software as intended - This includes the task manager and 'Alt+F4' to kill any tasks that I chose, see above for reasons why.
3. I buy a license for a game such as Elite and accept the EULA which not only contradicts point number 2 but also tries to limit my ability to control my own hardware.

In short there is no way that any games company can stop me from doing anything with property that I own i.e. The hardware.

If anyone chose's to turn of their router, un-plug a cable or kill a task they are within their rights to do so. Software house however know that no-one would take them to court over being banned due to combat logging as the company can destroy you financially with legal fees long before the case ever makes it before a judge and they play on this by imposing terms on us.

All of that said I do not condone combat logging nor do I think it is right to use the menu to leave the game while in combat but at times needs must for some. Yes combat logging is a problem but the ability to do anything about it is a legal minefield. Ultimately though you have the right to do what ever you wish with your hardware at anytime... Always remember this and never accept the false control imposed on you by a software house.

Dear Bran, I think this is a slightly dramatic approach.

I don't think for a second we're talking about FD having control over your hardware, or court cases because someone combat logged.

But FD do have moderation rights over their own game/software, and have the right to stop you playing ED by banning your account or similar, for breaking their rules...even if they don't exercise it.

If you don't agree to rules that say you can't task kill their game, don't buy the game.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'm in your PC. Touching your hardware.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I'm in your PC. Touching your hardware.

do I get to blame you when my processor gets gimped by 5-30% over the next few weeks then..........?

 

[Crank Larson]

ie probably NOT everything Donald Trump says is utter drivel....

I'm sorry, but some statements simply must be called out. This is categorically not true. Everything that emanates from his mouth is, at its very best, utter drivel.

Sorry for the interruption. Please carry on.