PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[JRok]

Cheer up and enjoy the game as is; don't obsess about how others play their game; laugh things off and just have fun. It'll be better for your mental well-being!

Absolutely.

 

[zantar]

Likewise cloggers should be made to rebuy their ships they combat logged with, and lose everything they were carrying at the time, including fighter crew..

YUP!
Because that's the only thing a "pirate" is looking for.....not loot, but to get that kill, right? [wacko]

And you have to wonder why open is .....so open and lonely for those poor "pirates".

**EDIT**
I have seen how this person conducts his actions and I was wrong about him and those who pirate as he does.
Apologies to him and the other real true pirates in elite.

o7 cmdr. [up]

 

[zantar]

This isnt about piracy. Its about people who want to see pixels go boom. Next they'll bring up PP or some other tangent. This is down to murder hobos and their plea to have their victims penalised further. As if their initial interaction wasnt enough. High wake they say, in their 'engineered' ships mass locking and sniping. Yeah, yeah. Most people know the score and are not the idiots some would take us for. No-one with a mind takes anything from SDC with anything less than a pinch of salt. At the very least suspicion. Motives are always ulterior and they're always present at the forum war. But we do great deeds and help old ladies cross the road. Yeah, yeah.

In game piracy is as much a victim of the murder hobo's as the players are.

So many silly facts here.
All those real "pirates" live on pixel dust you know. [haha]

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Did you really PUBLICALLY just say you were OK with FDev doing whatever they like, how they like, whenever they like REGARDLESS of how it affects the playerbase ON WHICH THIER INCOME RELIES?**

also I'm guessing you didnt read this thread:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/398068-Guys-You-know-what-I-really-want

oh wait - you did here's you're response: (that has been strangeley left alone by the moderators)



(moderate that!)

and my answer to your request:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/398068-Guys-You-know-what-I-really-want

read the bit where it says "combat log" SINGULAR. Inferring ONCE.

Two pages of that thread, no comments by any of Frontier.

There is NO LANGUAGE used by Sandro that suggests "please do not combat log multiple times" or "players who continually combat log will be dealt with".

quote: "At some point, however, we will start to take action against Commanders using this exploit. I can only suggest that you should avoid using this exploit if you want to avoid any penalties issued for its use. "

Let's look at the entirety of the language used, in the actual post, from your second thread:

Hello Commanders!

This is a quick update to let you guys know what we’re looking at regarding the issue of “combat logging”.

For clarity’s sake, “combat logging” is when a Commander ungracefully exits the game (e.g. using ALT + F4 then shutting down the game process) to avoid defeat, destruction and damage.

Commanders might use this exploit the moment they are interdicted or the moment before they are about to be destroyed.

Although this is flagged primarily as a multiplayer concern, the issues (and solutions) apply equally to the single player game.

First things first: we do consider this an undesirable exploit. It’s not “part of the game”.

Because we don’t have an all powerful server running the moment-to-moment game play simulation, there is no infallible arbiter to take control of a player’s ship when they ungracefully exit.

So what we’re doing is logging telemetry that will help us detect when this exploit is explicitly being used.

Right now, all we’re doing (and have already started doing) is looking at and implementing methods of collecting and analysing data.

At some point, however, we will start to take action against Commanders using this exploit. I can only suggest that you should avoid using this exploit if you want to avoid any penalties issued for its use. I'll just repeat: please avoid combat logging - we're taking this issue very seriously.

On a related, but separate track, we’re looking at introducing benefits to Commanders that persevere and stick it out through dangerous encounters, as well as general credit costs and rewards balancing.

I’m not quite ready to talk about these in more detail just now. Obviously though, they can never counter the potential costs of ship destruction, but we want to look at a range of disincentives and incentives both to counter this issue.

I hope this helps clarify our position a little.

Do feel free to highlight where this threshold is stated. I'll admit to sometimes missing the obvious. As you pointed out, Omission is just as relevant as presence, though I shouldn't need to clarify this, as you clearly hold degrees in Business Law, International Law and Contract Law from a much more prestigious university than I. Cambridge perhaps?

SINGULAR verbiage - the words "often / repeatedly / regularly / repetitively / ongoing / concurrently / frequently, many times, many a time, on many/numerous occasions, a lot, in many cases/instances, again and again, time and again, time and time again, time after time, over and over, over and over again, day in, day out, week in, week out, all the time, recurrently, continually, usually, habitually, commonly.... (there's more)

are not used, ANYWHERE in the entire "official statement."

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/?t=105778

In law - OMMISSION of language is just as relevent as PRESENCE of language.


** Even FDev are not that stupid - otherwise "Beyond" wouldn't be happening.

Edit: BTW Indigo - if you pay for a product under bais of certain conditions like "content" and that content doesn't then appear - then yes you are "entitled" - it may surprise you to learn there are ACTUAL LAWS THAT SAY YOU ARE ENTITLED.

just in case you missed that small and relevent FACT.

Or go and talk to a representative of "Hello Games" and the tens of thousands of refunds they had to issue when No Man's Sky was launched.

Or FDev when they issued thousands of refunds for "offlinegate".

And yes, I did very much, and very publicly state that Elite is the Property of Frontier, and that the rules of Elite are Frontier's rules, and that they can change them, choose to enforce them or not enforce them as they see fit, and that we have to live with that, because that is also a FACT. So unless you've ponied up the dough to purchase this IP, you can jump up and down and scream all you want, but what you want, what any of us want, are irrelevant.

As for Hello Games - why don't we bring up CryTech suing Roberts while we're scraping around for unrelated material to support an untenable position as well?

Because https://www.frontierstore.net/ed-eula/ will always hold precedent.

12. Miscellaneous12.1 We may transfer our rights and obligations under this EULA to another entity, but this will not affect your rights or obligations under this EULA. You may only transfer your rights or obligations under this EULA to another person if we agree in writing.
12.2 Each of the provisions of this EULA operates separately. If any court or competent authority decides that any of them are unlawful or unenforceable, the remainder of the EULA will remain in full force and effect.
12.3 In the event of a conflict between the terms of this EULA and the Conditions of Use, the provisions of this EULA shall prevail.
12.4 If we fail to insist that you perform any of your obligations under this EULA, or if we do not enforce our rights against you, or if we delay in doing so, that will not mean that we have waived our rights against you and will not mean that you do not have to comply with those obligations.
12.5 If you acquired or Use this Game in the United States of America, you will not export or re-export it except as authorised and permitted by the laws and regulations of the United States of America.
12.6 This EULA constitutes the entire agreement between Frontier and you with respect to the license and use of the Game and the Online Features and supersedes all prior or contemporaneous understandings. No amendment or modification of this EULA will be binding unless made in writing and signed by a duly authorised representative of Frontier.

And it's that little part in red that really drives it home - especially this part: [...]if we do not enforce our rights against you, or if we delay in doing so, that will not mean that we have waived our rights[...] At this point, all else you have to say on this matter falls on deaf ears. Credibility: Zero.

For everyone else, I will stress once more, I do not condone combat logging. I never have, and I never will. It is a problem, albeit a purely PVP problem, as it has no other actual effect on anything else.Since Frontier is under no obligation to tell us what they're doing behind the scenes, though they have, in this very thread, said in no uncertain terms, they are doing something, but will not reveal what to prevent folks from being able to counter these methods.

 

[Stigbob]

Leaving aside that you've still gained through an exploit (because you've just gained 10 missions worth of rank for doing one mission) how would Frontier determine that, particularly when they leave exploits unmolested till they reach a critical mass of rage with the chosen few, so we get to the point where people either assume it's working as intended,

In my case it would be simple, having stumbled across the exploit once months ago I haven't taken another base scan mission. I also either posted a bug report or added the details of it to someone else's bug report (can't remember which). A cheat would be wanging from the surface to the station repeating it as often as possible for data and cash. I found it, reported it and never did it again.

My tl/dr is this: If you're using an exploit before it's deemed cheating, you're exploiting. If you use an exploit after its deemed a cheat, then you're cheating. If you're used an exploit till it was deemed cheating, but stopped, then you're not a cheater.

I'd say rule lawyering that it's not cheating until formally declared an official cheat is a very weak justification, you can't have a rule for everything which is why rules have to be vague sometimes people are expected to be somewhat responsible for their own conduct.

Which is, cheating, right?
Heads up Stig, for some reason half your text is being formatted into grey.

Yep cash exploiting or clogging are both cheating, of a very similar nature.



The automatic font keeps switching to light grey from white, my eyes aren't good enough to tell the difference.

 

[Stealthie]

All those real "pirates" live on pixel dust you know. [haha]

Nah,

"Pirates" in ED make a living by running passenger missions and farming Thargoid tat, same as everybody else.
They just go back to "piracy" for the lulz.

And the lack of any working C&P allows this.

 

[KING5TON]

Jeez this thread.

Combat logging is against FD's rules. They've stated it. It's fact, it's known, stop trying to pretend it isn't.
FD have publicly told the community that it investigates and deals with people who break the rules.
They asked the community to help by providing evidence.
They have been caught not once but twice now not doing their job, ignoring the evidence found for them.
Last time they made gaming press headlines and made a statement that it was a one off issue of a process not being followed properly and that it wouldn't happen again.
The fact it's SDC that has provided this evidence matters not a jot. Hitler and Satan could have presented the evidence and it wouldn't matter. Ad hominem attacks are also apparently against the rules, I suppose enforcement of that rule also might need a review as it doesn't seem to be doing it's job either.
Your opinion of the rule or the context it's in does not matter, the rules are the rules.

So to recap, FD set the rules, FD enforces the rules, FD is either lying about enforcing the rules or incompetent at enforcing the rules. Neither would surprise me.
Either way the rules are no longer really rules as no one is enforcing them. Everyone is free to combat log as much as they like.
It's like a speed camera box with no camera in it, a deterrent only till people realize that they're being fooled.

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

This isnt about piracy. Its about people who want to see pixels go boom. Next they'll bring up PP or some other tangent. This is down to murder hobos and their plea to have their victims penalised further. As if their initial interaction wasnt enough. High wake they say, in their 'engineered' ships mass locking and sniping. Yeah, yeah. Most people know the score and are not the idiots some would take us for. No-one with a mind takes anything from SDC with anything less than a pinch of salt. At the very least suspicion. Motives are always ulterior and they're always present at the forum war. But we do great deeds and help old ladies cross the road. Yeah, yeah.

In game piracy is as much a victim of the murder hobo's as the players are.

High wake they say, in their 'engineered' ships mass locking and sniping.

hiGh wAKe mAss lockiNg

Congratulations. You've just proved to everyone that you have no idea what you're talking about, and all you're doing is trying to fuel the notion that "engineered ships are invincible and open is impossible to survive in because gankers".

Lesson 1: highwakes are not affected by masslock at all. Watch this encounter where I very easily escape a godroll engineered python (masslock factor 17) in my completely unmodded Type-7 (masslock factor 10) with a simple and easy highwake.

There is zero need to combat log in this situation at all. You can even keep watching to the part where I deal with a station suicidewinder easily without resorting to combat logging at all. It's amazing!

 

[Goose4291]

YUP!
Because that's the only thing a "pirate" is looking for.....not loot, but to get that kill, right? [wacko]

And you have to wonder why open is .....so open and lonely for those poor "pirates".

Strawman alert.

Lateralus was trying to suggest that enforcing a definite loss for cheating will encourage players to actually play the game rather than cheating their way out of situations.

 

[Powderpanic]

Nah,

"Pirates" in ED make a living by running passenger missions and farming Thargoid tat, same as everybody else.
They just go back to "piracy" for the lulz.

And the lack of any working C&P allows this.

You really think the C&P plans are going to help in any shape or form?

Its not going to magically make piracy an art to complete, its going to be become near impossible with the Elite Concord fleet thrown in to protect all the shieldless traders..

Piracy comes from the hold up and demanding 100 tonnes, not pick pocketing with limpets. If you think that is unfair or wrong, tough! That is how ED piracy works and has worked very well but is crippled and entirely by combat logging.

The C&P plans will break a lot of viable PVP, tell you what it wont do. Stop the weak players who refuse to build a strong from getting insta ganked by an engineered FDL, who is already running/highwaking by the time the Concord show up.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Jeez this thread.

Combat logging is against FD's rules. They've stated it. It's fact, it's known, stop trying to pretend it isn't.
FD have publicly told the community that it investigates and deals with people who break the rules.
They asked the community to help by providing evidence.
They have been caught not once but twice now not doing their job, ignoring the evidence found for them.
Last time they made gaming press headlines and made a statement that it was a one off issue of a process not being followed properly and that it wouldn't happen again.
The fact it's SDC that has provided this evidence matters not a jot. Hitler could have presented the evidence and it wouldn't matter. Ad hominem attacks are also apparently against the rules, I suppose enforcement of that rule also might need a review as it doesn't seem to be doing it's job either.
Your opinion of the rule or the context it's in does not matter, the rules are the rules.

So to recap, FD set the rules, FD enforces the rules, FD is either lying about enforcing the rules or incompetent at enforcing the rules. Neither would surprise me.
Either way the rules are no longer really rules as no one is enforcing them. Everyone is free to combat log as much as they like.
It's like a speed camera box with no camera in it, a deterrent only till people realize that they're being fooled.

I don't support Cl'ing, but SDC evidence is just a laughable study on 1 account combat logging once a mnth over 5mnth, which could easily be net issues; they should of used a more serious method if they wanted taking seriously , it's a poor investigation and it proves nothing despite what they may try and claim.

 

[Cmdr. Jägermeister]

I don't support Cl'ing, but SDC evidence is just a laughable study on 1 account combat logging once a mnth over 5mnth, which could easily be net issues; they should of used a more serious method if they wanted taking seriously , it's a poor investigation and it proves nothing despite what they may try and claim.

So you don´t trust SDC. Okay. I can understand that... kind of.

How would you explain all these videos of the same guy logging without anything being done about it? (If sth would have been done, there wouldn´t be that many videos)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=110lVkpA-bc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub5iinqDWeU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE40rm08gmg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oy0DGLfvHh8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuWRy5_GBfI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rvk8lB1AOM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BQY3DlD62o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo9Y0LQAYRo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax4ZD-oPWeo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh8LT_EZZBs&feature=youtu.be

 

[StiTch]

For everyone else, I will stress once more, I do not condone combat logging. I never have, and I never will. It is a problem, albeit a purely PVP problem, as it has no other actual effect on anything else.

Just going to point out this is absolutely untrue.

CMDR x is carrying 600T cargo to a station. The faction controlling that station is at war.

CMDR x is interdicted by an NPC Python. As CMDR x can't handle it, he task kills, then re-logs in to delver his cargo.

The controlling faction of that station is now 600T cargo of influence better off than it should have been. Over repeated incidences, that can very easily determine the outcome of a war if there's limited players pushing each side.

That's just a single arbitrary example, but remember this entire universe is linked by the BGS - something PvE players are quick to remind us if the subject is requesting PvP relevance to the universe.

Just because NPCs cannot complain, doesn't make it a victimless crime.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Congratulations. You've just proved to everyone that you have no idea what you're talking about, and all you're doing is trying to fuel the notion that "engineered ships are invincible and open is impossible to survive in because gankers".

Lesson 1: highwakes are not affected by masslock at all. Watch this encounter where I very easily escape a godroll engineered python (masslock factor 17) in my completely unmodded Type-7 (masslock factor 10) with a simple and easy highwake.

There is zero need to combat log in this situation at all. You can even keep watching to the part where I deal with a station suicidewinder easily without resorting to combat logging at all. It's amazing!

Actually, there are some very specific circumstances where all ships are most definitely masslocked, even when trying to high-wake...

1) Near the surface of a planet : all ships are mass-locked from even high-waking until I think 2km in altitude.

2) Within a certain radius of a starport, megaship, etc. : again all ships are masslocked from even high-waking.

These I call chokepoints, and quite often these are often used to the advantage of the more rabid gankers - circa examples of starport ganking or ganking near planet surfaces.

Just a wee reminder that there are circumstances in which no ship can escape a good ganking, via highwaking

Regards

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

Actually, there are some very specific circumstances where all ships are most definitely masslocked, even when trying to high-wake...

1) Near the surface of a planet : all ships are mass-locked from even high-waking until I think 2km in altitude.

2) Within a certain radius of a starport, megaship, etc. : again all ships are masslocked from even high-waking.

These I call chokepoints, and quite often these are often used to the advantage of the more rabid gankers - circa examples of starport ganking or ganking near planet surfaces.

Just a wee reminder that there are circumstances in which no ship can escape a good ganking, via highwaking

Regards

Except even at the largest stations you exceed the mass-lock distance before you exceed the no-fire zone. This has been true ever since they increased the size of no-fire zones.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Except even at the largest stations you exceed the mass-lock distance before you exceed the no-fire zone. This has been true ever since they increased the size of no-fire zones.

Except for ganking at Anarchy starports, where currently the No-Fire zone is meaningless.

Guess where a lot of past CG's have taken place - mostly at Anarchy starports

Now guess where a lot of ganking takes place.

 

[Arguendo]

For everyone else, I will stress once more, I do not condone combat logging. I never have, and I never will. It is a problem, albeit a purely PVP problem, as it has no other actual effect on anything else.

With the new ATR NPCs Sandro has talked about, I believe combatlogging on NPCs will grow exponentially. Going on killing sprees in systems to put them in Lockdown should not be possible in Solo after that, and when ATR finally responds do you believe these players will all high wake? Or will a portion of that player group instead combatlog to avoid death? I believe the latter will happen with increased frequency, and combatlogging will then not be a "purely PvP problem" (it isn't now either, but that's besides the point).

Combatlogging affects other players, even when done in Solo or Private Groups. Not directly, but to some extent indirectly.

 

[Han_Zen]

No matter which side you stand on in the PvP/PvE discussion, I think we ca all agree that the game needs more punishment.

Elite has great potential when it comes to in game punishment and FD has only used cash reduction and module removal, so far.

Other potential methods for EULA violations could include:

- Jitter(including fixed weapons)
- Fuel leaks
- Heat
- Military demotion
- Permit loss
- Fighter crew mutiny
- Personal Thargoid nemesis
- Forced embarrassing paint job
- Exile to Colonia(Sets Jaques to 'starter station' to avoid suicide returns to the bubble)
- The Hutton double. All Engineers demands a Centauri Gin and a Hutton cup in addition to the regular material cost for a roll.

Happy punishing FD.

 

[Waldi]

Just going to point out this is absolutely untrue.

CMDR x is carrying 600T cargo to a station. The faction controlling that station is at war.

CMDR x is interdicted by an NPC Python. As CMDR x can't handle it, he task kills, then re-logs in to delver his cargo.

The controlling faction of that station is now 600T cargo of influence better off than it should have been. Over repeated incidences, that can very easily determine the outcome of a war if there's limited players pushing each side.

That's just a single arbitrary example, but remember this entire universe is linked by the BGS - something PvE players are quick to remind us if the subject is requesting PvP relevance to the universe.

Just because NPCs cannot complain, doesn't make it a victimless crime.

Cargo and missions have no effect during war or civil war only bounties and bonds

 

[Vorxian]

I read that an ungraceful exit is against the rules..

But, what if one does a beautiful demi detourne after a gliding chasse to finally stroke the off switch on the router. No one can deny doing that would be the most graceful of ballet related ED exits ever...