PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[[VR] Mad Mike]

And how they will win in the court with those words then? When I bought the game there was nothing about not leaving the game when I want to... And still there are no such words in game using terms.

wow i cant believe i am siding with SDC here (it is a rarity).... but i would say what is being requested really is that you CAN leave the game when you want to... but this may mean accepting loss of your ship.

most games have an instant "lose" mechanic if you disconnect during a fight.

imo its not that FD dont WANT this in ED either but just that it is technically hard to implement... and let us be brutally honest here... things like (what i thought was a good idea initially) just putting the loss on the player who disconnects would not work either, because a small number of players (some who i believe are in this thread) have shown a great ability to get around the checks and balances FD put in place to stop crappery and i imagine IF this would implemented some griefer types would find a way to force a disconnection and fool the game into punishing the wrong person... in much the same logic they can fool the game into thinking a victim is the aggressor which has happened many times in the past such as getting ships automated defences to activate in a station, etc.

 

[Arthur Shappey]

Clearly many.

Many? A few to be sure, but I've seen no evidence this is even 1% of the playing population. These forums can give a lot more than their due publicity to those prepared to constantly post. This contrasts with those (potentially quite happy) people that are instead just playing the game... This is a potential distortion. It happens in many walks of society, so definitely not aimed just at this community.

It's a problem that affects a substantial section of the community.. Undermining several forms of PvP gameplay to the point of irrelevance. How many players have left the game because it has not been sorted.. I know of loads of prominent players from the early days who dropped the game for good because of this reason.

Fair enough. Seems odd though, given this has never been a proper multi-player designed game, the instancing limitations, and the severe limitations on user interactions have reduced PvP to all sorts of other problems such as ganking. So I can certainly understand players leaving disappointed by PvP, but am far from convinced the combat logging element is anywhere near enough to resolve that discontent. Please continue! I love a good debate!

Then they should play in the modes that cater to them, that's why they are there [rolleyes]

That is a divisive summary. There is nothing to say that Open is specifically for PvP is there? And there is plenty to suggest Open is definitely for winging, for social interaction, for multi-crewing, for having fun together -- which I would completely agree could include PvP.

So people are selfish for wanting cheating dealt with in the way that the developer assured them it would be? Amazing.

No. They are not. That I will concede is my conceit. But, IMHO, the developer should never have made such a commitment - which in the architecture of Elite would probably have no fair way of being implemented.

FYI I have never combat logged, I have been killed many times, but I have also been disconnected many times by my poor internet connection. On average at least once per gaming session.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Official "words" from the creators of the game. "Words" that are referencable on their own forum until they issue another statement that voids that. How official do you need something to be or are you simply going to believe like a child that closing your eyes and ears makes you exempt from following the rules?
…

It's rather pointless, but unless something was part of the contract it means nothing (legally) if those involved in the contract say or write anything.

Not that it matters. Legal stuff only becomes reality when a lawyer gets involved, until then it's in a fuzzy limbo of absurdity with basically no connection to reality and common sense.

It is a source of endless fun arguing on a forum - especially if the participants are from different countries. Completely pointless, but fun.

 

[Sirius Agent]

wow i cant believe i am siding with SDC here (it is a rarity).... but i would say you can leave the game when you want to... but this may mean accepting loss of your ship.

most games have an instant "lose" mechanic if you disconnect during a fight.

imo its not that FD dont WANT this in ED either but just that it is technically hard to implement... and let us be brutally honest here... things like (what i thought was a good idea initially) just putting the loss on the player who disconnects would not work either, because a small number of players (some who i believe are in this thread) have shown a great ability to get around the checks and balances FD put in place to stop crappery and i imagine IF this would implemented some griefer types would find a way to force a disconnection and fool the game into punishing the wrong person... in much the same logic they can fool the game into thinking a victim is the aggressor which has happened many times in the past such as getting ships automated defences to activate in a station, etc.

Agreed with loss of the ship, but not with ban. Baning people for exiting the game is illegal. That's the point.

 

[Mr_Foxhound]

if FD can lie about this what else are they lying about ?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Agreed of loss of the ship, but not with ban. Baning people for exiting the game is illegal.

i suspect if FD did somehow manage to build in loss of ship and it was not exploited by the nefarious types, then ultimately most people would accept this as a happy compromise to all. The problem is i do not think they can, so the fall back is (threatening at the moment) to ban those who are caught red handed which is their attempt to stop people clogging in the 1st place.

btw I think this is the perfect time to have my own whine about the clean logging. FGS FD remove the need to click ok at the end of the count down...... that way if the phone rings or the door bell goes i can hit log out and, leave it to fate.

the click ok at the end helps no one and hurts many with actual lives....

 

[Arthur Shappey]

if FD can lie about this what else are they lying about ?

When you say "lie" do you imply any deliberate deceit? Or did FDev simply make a promise they failed to fulfil - possibly being impossible to fulfil.

If the latter (which I suspect to be the case) they probably should own up and apologise. But for it to be a deliberate lie, would seem like a very strange behaviour - with no commercial gain, no personal gain, no sense - very odd. Why would they deliberately lie about this?

 

[Achilles7]

Actually, well pointed out - I'm not entirely 100% with it by the end of the working day - so I'll take that slap on the wrist. Bad StiTch!

But yeah, the point still stands. x bonds or bounties are retained because of CLing, there is influence on the galaxy that should not have been.

Yeah I don't comment on the BGS anymore, as someone always puts you right....citing experience, facts, empirical evidence, knowledge & other stupid stuff like that!

I tried to read up on it once, but 'almost slipped into a coma - & I'm an accountant with a degree in Economics & BO (haha, no I've never heard that one before!) specialist! ie it takes a lot to bore me! - luckily someone had a copy the Maastricht Treaty to snap me out of the delirium.

----------------------------------

Kudos to Rinzler for a fun thread - even if it's all old news! CL is bad - check / CL should be dealt with - check / Frontier have done nothing in 3 yrs to rectify the issue - CHECK!!!!

Quick question Rinz (not designed to adversely influence the views of the non-PvP player-base towards you or anything) - Do you still go ganking single DBSs flown by relatively new players, with Bazinga in your god-rolled FDLs?

 

[Martian Successor]

Still there is no answer there. Because I'm just leaving game via in game menu -this is legal, turning off my computer is legal too.

He underlined it for you:

"4.4 You may not use the Game or any Online Features in a manner that could damage, disable, impair, overburden or compromise our systems or security or interfere with the experience of other users of the Game or any Online Feature."

I'll expand by adding that if you combat log you are:
- disabling the way the game works in that you save yourself from damage or even a rebuy via unintended, out of game means
- compromising the mechanics of the gameplay, i.e. rebuys/repairs as a consequence of being in a fight.
- Interferring with other users experience and the online nature of the game by taking yourself out of the intended mechanics of the game.

15 second menu exit does not apply as it is accepted by the devs.

 

[Martian Successor]

It's rather pointless, but unless something was part of the contract it means nothing (legally) if those involved in the contract say or write anything.

Not that it matters. Legal stuff only becomes reality when a lawyer gets involved, until then it's in a fuzzy limbo of absurdity with basically no connection to reality and common sense.

It is a source of endless fun arguing on a forum - especially if the participants are from different countries. Completely pointless, but fun.

It is indeed completely pointless. Especially when arguing with someone who just wants to argue for the sake of it.

 

[MottiKhan]

i suspect if FD did somehow manage to build in loss of ship and it was not exploited by the nefarious types, then ultimately most people would accept this as a happy compromise to all. The problem is i do not think they can, so the fall back is (threatening at the moment) to ban those who are caught red handed which is their attempt to stop people clogging in the 1st place.

btw I think this is the perfect time to have my own whine about the clean logging. FGS FD remove the need to click ok at the end of the count down...... that way if the phone rings or the door bell goes i can hit log out and, leave it to fate.

the click ok at the end helps no one and hurts many with actual lives....

+1. RL takes precedence. You shouldn't have to go back and click, especially if the "danger" causing the timer is a nearby star. Which is typically the case.

 

[Martian Successor]

if FD can lie about this what else are they lying about ?

Braben's clean shave. He's actually got a bushy full grown cave man beard!

 

[Sirius Agent]

15 second menu exit does not apply as it is accepted by the devs.

Exactly, end of story. But for SDC this is still pain in the...

 

[Martian Successor]

Exactly, end of story.

Peace be with you.

 

[Maka Gucci]

Exactly, end of story. But for SDC this is still pain in the...

Ok so you are a coward. But did you read the OP, where he made a distinction between the Clogging and the 15 second time out, or my post that referenced it?

At least if you ever do get banned you'll have no more luck fighting your case in court than they would have, had they attempted to enforce it through law rather than just vac banning your a** .

 

[the100thmonkey]

He underlined it for you:

"4.4 You may not use the Game or any Online Features in a manner that could damage, disable, impair, overburden or compromise our systems or security or interfere with the experience of other users of the Game or any Online Feature."

I'll expand by adding that if you combat log you are:
- disabling the way the game works in that you save yourself from damage or even a rebuy via unintended, out of game means
- compromising the mechanics of the gameplay, i.e. rebuys/repairs as a consequence of being in a fight.
- Interferring with other users experience and the online nature of the game by taking yourself out of the intended mechanics of the game.

15 second menu exit does not apply as it is accepted by the devs.

As others have already pointed out (and since we're being legalistic), there are questions regarding the legality of an EULA binding people into how they use their hardware. There are also issues regarding previous EULAs, such as the Windows EULA, and how a subsequent one might contradict it.

You can't, legally, prevent another person from turning their hardware off whenever they feel like it. Nor can you, legally, prevent another person from changing the firewall rules on their router (or their OS, even dynamically) whenever they feel like it. In other words, Frontier's EULA is, in the examples given above, entirely toothless. Note that it says "the Game or any Online Features," not "the computer hardware you own and the networking capabilities associated therewith."

Task-killing isn't a feature of "the Game". Pulling the ethernet cable isn't a feature of "the Game". Blocking the IP address of the person whose game client is currently connected to yours via Windows' firewall or through your router's amin interface isn't a feature of "the Game".

 

[RidingTheFlow]

As others have already pointed out (and since we're being legalistic), there are questions regarding the legality of an EULA binding people into how they use their hardware.

You can't, legally, prevent another person from turning their hardware off whenever they feel like it.

Sorry, but this won't fly in court. Any interaction with computer is "using the hardware".
Owning the keyboard does not allow you do go hack anybody because "they are unable to dictate which buttons that you own you are allowed to push and when".

Hardware is a tool. Its ownership does not give you blanket permission on use it to any imaginable purpose. Same as owning the knife does not automatically allow you to stab people because "its my knife".

 

[GJ51]

These threads are just such great entertainment.

Let's discuss something we already know...

Then let's rally the forum attorneys

Then let's rehash what we already know again

Then let everyone realize that FD is fully aware and that

NOTHING is going to CHANGE

Are we there yet?

 

[Stigbob]

wow i cant believe i am siding with SDC here (it is a rarity).... but i would say what is being requested really is that you CAN leave the game when you want to... but this may mean accepting loss of your ship.

most games have an instant "lose" mechanic if you disconnect during a fight.

imo its not that FD dont WANT this in ED either but just that it is technically hard to implement... and let us be brutally honest here... things like (what i thought was a good idea initially) just putting the loss on the player who disconnects would not work either, because a small number of players (some who i believe are in this thread) have shown a great ability to get around the checks and balances FD put in place to stop crappery and i imagine IF this would implemented some griefer types would find a way to force a disconnection and fool the game into punishing the wrong person... in much the same logic they can fool the game into thinking a victim is the aggressor which has happened many times in the past such as getting ships automated defences to activate in a station, etc.

That's the thing introduce karma people fly across your guns in a res site then suicide into a rock or blow you up getting a legit kill and you get the bad karma, even worse if you try to fight back. The sort of players willing to "enforce station speed limits" will be all over that sort of exploit, without having to bother with any technical connection shenanigans.

A problem with fining people for disconnects is dropping offline mode, you can't go Darth Vadering the deal then punish people for having poor internet connections.

These threads are just such great entertainment.

Let's discuss something we already know...

Then let's rally the forum attorneys

Then let's rehash what we already know again

Then let everyone realize that FD is fully aware and that

NOTHING is going to CHANGE

Are we there yet?

Imagine if FDEV fix clogging tonight.

Tomorrow the new whinge threads are "menu logging and high wake is cheating waah".

 

[the100thmonkey]

Sorry, but this won't fly in court. Any interaction with computer is "using the hardware".
Owning the keyboard does not allow you do go hack anybody because "they are unable to dictate which buttons that you own you are allowed to push and when".

Hardware is a tool. Its ownership does not give you blanket permission on use it to any imaginable purpose. Same as owning the knife does not automatically allow you to stab people because "its my knife".

You're drawing examples from criminal, not contract, law.