PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[Devari]

Sorry Devari but you have continually failed to show me why your personal experiences and your confirmation bias is more relevant than anyone else informing you that their experience is different and they simply do not face the same level of instability whenever they play ED. It's just pointless to continue engaging you in conversation when all you do is refuse to admit that your personal experience is not the be all and end all and instead you just double down and continue onwards just for the sake of arguing.

It's clear that you and I will not agree with each other because you are incapable of acknowledging that your experience is not the majority experience just because you want it to be.

As I've mentioned several times, I'm not simply relying on my "personal experience" I'm also taking into account all the information we have on the forums and in the various bug reports which are described frequently by numerous players. Whether or not you have experienced those issues yourself does not "invalidate" all of that information.

 

[Maka Gucci]

I think the biggest issue here is only like 10-15% of FDevs gamers actually have problems with combat logging and that’s because those 10-15% shoot everything in sight. Again I’m not saying your way to play is wrong but It’s hard to please a small minority of players in a game when their play style is so backwards to the majority. I think the biggest issue for you “combat logging is cheating” argument is that the majority still see murder as murder in elite no matter how homicidal your role playing is.

If you read any of my or others posts you'd know that's not true, again you are lumping together those who PvP with those who grief and gank because it's easy. But it's really lazy and says a lot more about you that you continually choose to ignore there's a difference.

You are literally in support of cheating, and your argument is some grand generalisation of anyone who likes player vs player interaction.

It says you are with Aisling Duval, then you should be on our slack and know that just as I love PvP I support pure PvE players who do nothing but BGS, because we need that as much as anything else.

But when our traders wanna trade in Open and are being harassed in Cubeo, who flies hundreds of light years and spends millions in ship transfers to protect our capital? Me and others like me, responding to calls in the Defence channel.

Why act like all we want to do is shoot anything that moves?

You ask Khan or the their other skilled pilots from FW how much role play is involved, between auto hotkey back and forths to all the haulers I pull and don't kill, telling them to send their combat pilots to come defend their turf.

You are like so many others, not only disrespectful but also incredibly inaccurate in your assumptions and gross generalisations.

 

[DR Grandreefer]

If you read any of my or others posts you'd know that's not true, again you are lumping together those who PvP with those who grief and gank because it's easy. But it's really lazy and says a lot more about you that you continually choose to ignore there's a difference.

You are literally in support of cheating, and your argument is some grand generalisation of anyone who likes player vs player interaction.

It says you are with Aisling Duval, then you should be on our slack and know that just as I love PvP I support pure PvE players who do nothing but BGS, because we need that as much as anything else.

But when our traders wanna trade in Open and are being harassed in Cubeo, who flies hundreds of light years and spends millions in ship transfers to protect our capital? Me and others like me, responding to calls in the Defence channel.

Why act like all we want to do is shoot anything that moves?

You ask Khan or the their other skilled pilots from FW how much role play is involved, between auto hotkey back and forths to all the haulers I pull and don't kill, telling them to send their combat pilots to come defend their turf.

You are like so many others, not only disrespectful but also incredibly inaccurate in your assumptions and gross generalisations.

I am not lumping people together. 10-15% account for the ones that kill everything in sight and are the very reason as to why dash boarding cannot be a punishable offense as of now. If something in the galaxy would change where CMDRs would use their in game knowledge to see that a target is no threat or a challenge then maybe we can start punishing ones for CLoggin. But, when you have a minority of players in a game causing this much of an issue all the others will be effected within that game but please understand what I am saying here. Grieving has been defined in many different ways but those that spend all the time trying to define it know what it is when its happening. We have all the hud information to determine wether or not action should be taken in just about any instance and its just laziness if your not using it. We even have the ability to see when a target is waving a white flag(Turning to a square on radar). All the information is there for us to be selective enough about our targets and still we have people that press open like they are selecting a custom class in call of duty. This game is more then that and I get that everyone has a a good reason to defend their own play style but just as much as you want to defend you own play style or beliefs of cheating you have to see the issue with the ones that I am referencing. You may not be one of the ones that kill everything and I get that dash board is cheating and really just bad for any game its done in. My attempt was to explain why it hasnt been fixed yet. Too many people losing ships because they are flying without rebuy(yes, very dumb) or people that don't know the first thing about combat(again you should take some time if you dont) but its just as dumb to think that punishing dash boarding isnt any worse for the game then people that use fully A classed and tier 5 engineered ships to kill people that have a few days played in the game. Like they don't even know what an engineer is and you had to know it when you pulled the trigger. I know every experienced CMDR could pick it out from just watching a video clip.

Ultimately should dash boarding be fixed. Yes, it should. Can it be fixed right now with some of the way some people play the game and the extreme effect they cause on the new player base or even future players to come. I am not so sure.

Oh and I was on AD slack but they removed me because I decided to kill a few CMDRs that blatantly tried to steal my kills and they dash boarded. No hard feelings though. I have my own little community getting built and it wont ever be as big as you guys but I will not ever remove people without proof. Although I will say FDev told me that I was the griever in that situation because I was the one that got the bounty. Ill be damned if I will ever let somebody step on me multiple times. Not in life and surly not in a video game. Best part Im allied with those players now but I havent tried AD slack since. Not sure it would matter if you guys think im a griever and now apparently a supporter of cheating

 

[Stigbob]

You are like so many others, not only disrespectful but also incredibly inaccurate in your assumptions and gross generalisations.

Gosh darn that's a good parody.

 

[DR Grandreefer]

I also believe if the community could be more selective about the targets they kill it would open the door for FDev to give us more play with our builds. In other words, if you dont have Condas, Cutters, and Vettes taking on Cobras and Vipers that they know they can kill then we theoretically could have those big war vessels to be built even more powerful and extreme. I always thought that a lot of the experimental mods got nerfed for this exact reason. Because of the minority of people that would use their power indiscriminately. I'm going to go ahead a quote spiderman but "with great power comes great responsibility"and just say well some people just don't wield responsibility so well.

 

[JosiahD]

What is the most discussed and published in the gaming news exploit in Elite Dangerous since the release of the game?

Answer : Combat logging

Nobody care about what 15 cmdrs did with exploited modules, these people would have been blown up regardless and plus that issue was fixed the days it was brought up to light. Was something ever done to fix combat logging? No, not only that but Frontier got caught, not once but twice now, ignoring reports.

I assure you, the metrics are high. You don't need to go far to see the impact and you don't need a spreadsheet with a bunch of boring numbers. Get out of this forum for 5 minutes, google combat logging elite dangerous and you'll find thousand of videos and discussions on the subject.

As for asking whether or not you are condoning cheating, it's hard to tell by looking at your posts. Since you dodged the question and you have a difficult time condoning combat logging, I'll assume that you are endorsing it.

That being said, I'm done discussing this issue with you.


------


Here is for your utmost pleasure to read since Combat Logging doesn't seems to be an actual issue :


https://www.pcgamesn.com/elite-dangerous/elite-dangerous-combat-logging

https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/319109/elite-dangerous-combat-logging/319130

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...rs-are-trying-to-get-frontier-to-fix-cheating

https://www.gamereactor.eu/news/484023/Elite+Dangerous+user+criticises+Frontier+over+combat+logging/

https://segmentnext.com/2016/11/23/...ers-are-deliberately-ignoring-combat-logging/

http://forums.jeuxonline.info/showthread.php?t=1289913

https://ruclip.com/video/cAhf1QDp9N4/elite-dangerous-pvp-and-combat-logging-issue.html

http://www.gamenguide.com/articles/...rous-news-update-issues-on-combat-logging.htm

https://www.vg247.com/2016/11/23/el...sing-frontier-to-address-cheating-complaints/

https://mmoexaminer.com/elite-dangerous-exploit-cheaters/

http://massivelyop.com/2016/11/23/e...s-accuse-frontier-of-ignoring-combat-exploit/

http://www.gamestar.de/artikel/elite_dangerous,3305777.html

https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/2016-24-11-the-elite-dangerous-community-are-not-impressed-with-frontier-developments-lack-of-support

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5ec6j1/an_investigation_into_frontiers_actions_on_combat/dacac6q/
[/URL]

At no stage have I said that combat logging isn't an issue. You 'assure' me the metrics are high hey? Excuse me if I don't simply take your word for it.

Nobody cares about what certain CMDRs did with exploited modules hey? Deluded....

All I've done is point out that I can understand why some might be motivated to engage in combat logging (I don't condone it, despite your assertion otherwise), and that I have no sympathy for certain types of players who might have been on the receiving end. And of course pointing out, quite correctly I might add, that if combat loggers are dealt with by bans, other cheaters should be treated just as harshly. You seem to have a problem with equitable treatment of cheaters. You seem to be condoning the engineer cheat, even to the point of belittling it's impact on other players. Good show.....

 

[DR Grandreefer]

At no stage have I said that combat logging isn't an issue.

Nobody cares about what certain CMDRs did with exploited modules hey? Deluded....

All I've done is point out that I can understand why some might be motivated to engage in combat logging (I don't condone it, despite your assertion otherwise), and that I have no sympathy for certain types of players who might have been on the receiving end. And of course pointing out, quite correctly I might add, that if combat loggers are dealt with by bans, other cheaters should be treated just as harshly. You seem to have a problem with equitable treatment of cheaters. You seem to be condoning the engineer cheat, even to the point of belittling it's impact on other players. Good show.....

This guy gets it. I cant give you any rep CMDR. lol

 

[JosiahD]

If you read any of my or others posts you'd know that's not true, again you are lumping together those who PvP with those who grief and gank because it's easy. But it's really lazy and says a lot more about you that you continually choose to ignore there's a difference.

Not all of us look at PvPers universally as griefers and gankers and murder hobos. The griefers/gankers are just a subset of the PvP community, not the whole. Just like combat loggers are but a subset of the playerbase as a whole, albeit across both the PvP and PvE aspects. I would argue that griefers/gankers are only a small part of the PvP community, and I would argue that combat loggers are only a small subset of our whole playerbase. Of course, I have no figures to back that up, but nor do those who claim combat logging is a major (the sky is falling) problem have figures to illustrate just how major. Sure, there's videos of combat logging, but the same can be said in regard to griefing/ganking and other cheating. Both are issues for Frontier to deal with, to be sure, but at what priority? That's for Frontier to decide. We have C&P changes and the karma system coming - we need to see what impacts these will have in discouraging both behaviours.

 

[Julio Montega]

Let me sum up at this point of the thread,
what i grasp to be the problem here:

- combat logging is a known cheat, that is around for quite a while, even since pre release
- other exploits and cheats have been dealt with by FD, but here the response is lacking
- people feel cheated and lied to by FD, as they presumably take no action
and don't bother to view video proof, to reconstruct the event
- people that are known using the cheat, still are flying without repercussion
- the community expresses strong content with FDs inaction on this matter,
as this issue has been promised to be dealt with years ago
- this cheat is wrongly seen as a PvP only minor issue, as the connection is
the parameter the cheating is done on, affecting all modes of gameplay, including PvE

 

[DR Grandreefer]

Let me sum up at this point of the thread,
what i grasp to be the problem here:

- combat logging is a known cheat, that is around for quite a while, even since pre release
- other exploits and cheats have been dealt with by FD, but here the response is lacking
- people feel cheated and lied to by FD, as they presumably take no action
and don't bother to view video proof, to reconstruct the event
- people that are known using the cheat, still are flying without repercussion
- the community expresses strong content with FDs inaction on this matter,
as this issue has been promised to be dealt with years ago
- this cheat is wrongly seen as a PvP only minor issue, as the connection is
the parameter the cheating is done on, affecting all modes of gameplay, including PvE

....and grieving is just as bad as CLoggin and nothing has been done about this.....yet.

Both need to be dealt with and I dont think one can be punished with out the other.

Side note: An actual definition of what grieving is may need to be explained by FDev.

 

[Julio Montega]

....and grieving is just as bad as CLoggin and nothing has been done about this.....yet.

Both need to be dealt with and I dont think one can be punished with out the other.

Side note: An actual definition of what grieving is may need to be explained by FDev.

That is topic of CMDR behaviour,
and completely besides the point of the report,
regarding "grieving".

 

[DR Grandreefer]

That is topic of CMDR behaviour,
and completely besides the point of the report.

I dont believe it is. The one is highly connected to the other regardless of why this was posted. Heck, one is the reason for the other not being fixed/punishable and I thought the ultimate reason for this post was to figure out why nothing has been done. I am only adding my 2 cents and only want to better elite on all sides. Not just for my own preferable play styles and beliefs but for everyone's play styles and beliefs....well the best we can.

 

[Julio Montega]

I dont believe it is. The one is highly connected to the other regardless of why this was posted. Heck, one is the reason for the other not being fixed/punishable and I thought the ultimate reason for this post was to figure out why nothing has been done. I am only adding my 2 cents and only want to better elite on all sides. Not just for my own preferable play styles and beliefs but for everyone's play styles and beliefs....well the best we can.

Please don't start a tirade about that topic
in a threat that tries to investigate into the
topic of combat logging and FDs reponses
and inaction.

 

[PeLucheuh]

The one is highly connected to the other regardless of why this was posted. Heck, one is the reason for the other not being fixed/punishable [...]

No. Once again Combat logging is not exclusive to PvP and Open.

 

[Weps]

Here is for your utmost pleasure to read since Combat Logging doesn't seems to be an actual issue :


https://www.pcgamesn.com/elite-dangerous/elite-dangerous-combat-logging

https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/319109/elite-dangerous-combat-logging/319130

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...rs-are-trying-to-get-frontier-to-fix-cheating

https://www.gamereactor.eu/news/484023/Elite+Dangerous+user+criticises+Frontier+over+combat+logging/

https://segmentnext.com/2016/11/23/...ers-are-deliberately-ignoring-combat-logging/

http://forums.jeuxonline.info/showthread.php?t=1289913

https://ruclip.com/video/cAhf1QDp9N4/elite-dangerous-pvp-and-combat-logging-issue.html

http://www.gamenguide.com/articles/...rous-news-update-issues-on-combat-logging.htm

https://www.vg247.com/2016/11/23/el...sing-frontier-to-address-cheating-complaints/

https://mmoexaminer.com/elite-dangerous-exploit-cheaters/

http://massivelyop.com/2016/11/23/e...s-accuse-frontier-of-ignoring-combat-exploit/

http://www.gamestar.de/artikel/elite_dangerous,3305777.html

https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/2016-24-11-the-elite-dangerous-community-are-not-impressed-with-frontier-developments-lack-of-support

[url]https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5ec6j1/an_investigation_into_frontiers_actions_on_combat/dacac6q/
[/URL]

Interesting. These are all from 2 years ago, right? (didn't check all of them)

I wonder if at least a fraction of these sites would be interested in writing a follow-up to the story, and about how FDEV has saw fit to respond to the new series of inquiries done by players. That should make for a juicy article.

 

[Stigbob]

Interesting. These are all from 2 years ago, right? (didn't check all of them)

I wonder if at least a fraction of these sites would be interested in writing a follow-up to the story, and about how FDEV has saw fit to respond to the new series of inquiries done by players. That should make for a juicy article.

Running a story based on faked reports is problematic.

 

[Theodrid]

Combat logging shouldn't be happening, I've repeatedly stated that if you combat log - particularly in open - you are in the wrong mode and should desist immediately but there is a huge caveat to what I've just said.

Some of you guys that are shouting the loudest about this are the very same people that yell that pretend space pixels do not matter. You are the same people that, quite rightly, expect players to suck up a 10 million credit rebuy, lose maybe 2-3 hours of game time while at the same time screaming that you wasted somewhere between 1 and 10 minutes of game time and zero credits when somebody logs on you. Are you really surprised that many of the players you are asking to suck up huge losses compared to the effect a combat log has on you aren't very sympathetic to your cause? Are you really surprised that this isn't a 'hot issue' for many people because, frankly, the inconvenience to you is trivial? Are you really surprised that in a game where PVP means virtually zip that many of the players, and quite possibly the developer, see combat logging as a relatively minor issue with minimal tangible ripple effects?

Yes, yes, I know, it's cheating, but they are either pretend space pixels that don't matter or they do matter at least a bit, if you want sympathy stop telling people they don't matter when they lose loads of credits and 2 hours game time but they somehow do when you lose zero credits and 10 minutes game time. Stop pretending that not seeing an explosion is more frustrating and important than a senseless, exploity station gank that costs the player at the receiving end much more than no plodey does you.

Yes, yes, I know, it's cheating, but guess what? - and I hate to be the one to break it to you, your 1-10 minutes isn't that important to anybody but you, I don't think with this not being a PVP centric game that it is majorly important to Frontier either considering that a lot of the time, (by no means all), the only tangible gain from PVP is a victims salt, it has very little effect on the game world, gains for the attacker or much else for that matter.

Of course, whatever Frontier can do they should, and it should be more than now, they've shafted themselves somewhat with the game infrastructure but hopefully they can find at least some answers. But having said that the levels of hypocrisy from some of you guys and gals really hurts my head.

 

[Weps]

Running a story based on faked reports is problematic.

That's a journalist's job to determine.

Besides, even if an article would resume to them reaching out FDEV and asking for a statement, a simple statement that action is in fact taken against CLoggers in the form of warnings or shadow bans, it would still be something. It would actually be more than we currently got as a response from FDEV.

 

[Morbad]

I also believe if the community could be more selective about the targets they kill it would open the door for FDev to give us more play with our builds.

You are asking players to police themselves, which, given a large portion of comments on these forums, and the overall state of the game, is clearly impossible.

I can and do limit myself, as my goal as a player is pretty much in line with the statements Braben made during development that I've put in my signature. However, most people, including everyone who would combat log, are not looking for the same sort of game; they take "blaze your own trail", or "play your way", to mean "play the game like it's a single player title you own, and to hell with the consequences for the game or anyone else".

Destroying CMDR vessels controlled by helpless, ignorant, newbie, players is never going to be difficult, is likely never going to be against the rules, and isn't really even against the spirit of the game. Sure the consequences of such actions aren't presented well in-game, but equating this with more profound exploits or actions that have been explicitly prohibited is neither here nor there.

Both need to be dealt with and I dont think one can be punished with out the other.

And that's where you're wrong. Frontier should be enforcing all of their rules and prohibitions to the best of their abilities, even if enforcing some are easier than others. Waiting until everything can be identified consistently and reliably means that nothing would ever get done.

Patterns of repeat, wilful, disconnections are certainly easier to identify than the personal motivations of what a player has their in-game character do are.

Side note: An actual definition of what grieving is may need to be explained by FDev.

The code of conduct outlines several behaviors as prohibited: https://www.frontierstore.net/code-of-conduct

Sandro also explicitly defined malicious griefing almost five years ago: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4604

malicious griefing (which we loosely define as actions whose only purpose, outcome and gain is to punish and frustrate other players).

Most of the activities you've decried above do not fit the criteria used to define griefing. One (or many) CMDR destroying vastly weaker CMDRs who don't want a fight is almost never griefing, and shouldn't be a prohibited action at the player level.

 

[DR Grandreefer]

Please don't start a tirade about that topic
in a threat that tries to investigate into the
topic of combat logging and FDs reponses
and inaction.

No tirade here. Just laying out facts just like you where and It just so happens my answers are applied to the op very first question "how did we get here". I am sorry if my opinion stands against you but this is how the world works. You put your opinion out there and others will follow. I am sorry if I wasted you time while you where wasting time.