PvP An Investigation Into Frontier's Actions on Combat Logging, Part 2

[Julio Montega]

A common sense approach would be wait and see if the C&P karma changes fix it, since they are already in development and it's a fairly minor issue.

Isn't the common sense approach here to basically say:
It is an issue and has not been fixed in 4 YEARS,
so without attention to it, it is unlikely to EVER be fixed?

"Fairly minor issue" is a very biased way to see it.
The fact is that FD pointed out it is cheating,
and they don't take action against it.
So it is their liability to take action.

You guys can argue on all day,
it will not change the facts.
I really should build a chat bot
to do this:

- FD said clogging is cheating
- reports have amassed over the past year
- reports have not been actioned
- the issue is not PVP only, it is mode-neutral
- people do not enjoy the putting of this topic under the carpet
- people feel badly treated and lied to by FD

 

[PeLucheuh]

I've already stated, several times, that I agree that combat logging can have an impact on PvE. But you people are acting like the sky is falling or the world is going to end because of it. First the sky was falling in regard to PvP, now the world is coming to an end because it impacts on PvE. It's a cheat, but not exactly a game breaking one (although arguably it can be in PvP if it occurs repeatedly). I agree that any cheat needs to be fixed ASAP, but it has to be fixed in the right way. I am not convinced it has as big an impact (from an overall game perspective), in either PvP or PvE, as you and others think it does. Even your link above in regard to PvE impacts only describes it as moderate severity (for that particular case mind you). I'm sure in moment-to-moment PvP gameplay it's downright frustrating. But so has been for some time griefing/ganking that results in little to no consequence for the perpetrator but heavy losses on the victim. That's not to condone combat logging, not at all, but in order to prioritise fixes and ensure they are dealing with the problem correctly, you have to fully understand the scale of the problem and the root causes/motivations for it. I simply don't take the word of disaffected players as gospel when it comes to the best way to remediate it. Frontier clearly think they have that understanding, hence the proposed C&P and karma changes. While I and others are happy to wait to assess the impacts of those changes when released, others are not it seems. I'm not yet convinced myself that the proposed changes will remedy antisocial behaviour or things like combat logging, but I'm prepared to give Frontier the chance to see if it works.

Not an investigation huh? Must be inconvenient that the title of both the previous iteration and this one include the word 'investigation'....

Your are comparing and making confusions between different things that are not linked.

C&P is about implementing better consequences (without any rewards yet) for criminal activities. It is not aimed at stoping criminal activities (like sandro said during the stream).

Ganking is part of the PvP activity (PvP functionality is non optional in multiplayers mode) and there is nothing wrong with it.

Griefing correspond to a few specific situations according to game rules and mechanics.

Combat logging is a cheat and there is only one right way to deal with it : a fix that makes it impossible to use. But i hear you and Karma might be a good start.

Finally our investigation were about Frontirer's Actions on combat logging not an investigation regarding combat logging impact (which like i said is not needed because it is a factual approach). Words are important.

 

[Stigbob]

Isn't the common sense approach here to basically say:
It is an issue and has not been fixed in 4 YEARS,
so without attention to it, it is unlikely to EVER be fixed?

Nope, given the recent discussions and proposed solutions that are in the works it doesn't make sense to concentrate on what happened in the past. Look to the future, and take part in beta testing if you like.

"Fairly minor issue" is a very biased way to see it.
The fact is that FD pointed out it is cheating,
and they don't take action against it.
So it is their liability to take action.

Not regarding it as minor is just as biased, as is not recognizing it as an issue that only bothers a small niche of the playerbase. They are taking action, they keep telling us this.

You guys can argue on all day,
it will not change the facts.
I really should build a chat bot
to do this:

- FD said clogging is cheating

Yes, everyone has repeatedly agreed on this. So what ?.

- reports have amassed over the past year

Some of which were false.

- reports have not been actioned

The false ones were not, that's a good thing.

- the issue is not PVP only, it is mode-neutral

The issue is player specific modes are irrelevant, I don't care about clogging I think it's funny. I play in open I even occasionally do PVP. PVP'ers do tend to be more bothered by it though, so this sub-forum is probably the best place to stick the thread.

- people do not enjoy the putting of this topic under the carpet

The topics been openly discussed many times, in many threads it's hardly been hidden. This thread however is based on false reports, so the mods have been very nice and lenient letting it stay open at all. Closing it with a sarky "take your manufactured drama elsewhere" would have been the easier route for them.

 

[Julio Montega]

Nope, given the recent discussions and proposed solutions that are in the works it doesn't make sense to concentrate on what happened in the past. Look to the future, and take part in beta testing if you like.

I have been told many times to look to the future.
This is no more happening.

Not regarding it as minor is just as biased, as is not recognizing it as an issue that only bothers a small niche of the playerbase. They are taking action, they keep telling us this.

You try to twist my words,
i did not anywhere weigh the issue.
I just put it plain in front of your eyes.
It is what it is: a longstanding issue.

Some of which were false.
The false ones were not, that's a good thing.
The topics been openly discussed many times, in many threads it's hardly been hidden. This thread however is based on false reports, so the mods have been very nice and lenient letting it stay open at all. Closing it with a sarky "take your manufactured drama elsewhere" would have been the easier route for them.

Instead of just putting reports as false, go out there, investigate yourself and create data to prove FDs action if you like.
But i get it. It always is more comfortable to try and shout down other people with repeating the same sentences,
over and over, and over.... and over.

 

[Stigbob]

I have been told many times to look to the future.
This is no more happening.

Really ?, it's only since the fixes were announced that people have said it. Deciding not to wait any more just as the fixes are announced/imminent is a bit of waste of effort.

You try to twist my words,
i did not anywhere weigh the issue.
I just put it plain in front of your eyes.
It is what it is: a longstanding issue.

You told me I was biased I demonstrated we both have biases, that's not twisting anything it's just how people are.

Instead of just putting reports as false, go out there, investigate yourself and create data to prove FDs action if you like.
But i get it. It always is more comfortable to try and shout down other people with repeating the same sentences,
over and over, and over.... and over.

It's just people choosing not to play a video game, it's not a big deal and I'm not bothered by it I feel no need to "investigate".

 

[Julio Montega]

Really ?, it's only since the fixes were announced that people have said it. Deciding not to wait any more just as the fixes are announced/imminent is a bit of waste of effort.

Got any source on the announcement of the fix for clogging?

You told me I was biased I demonstrated we both have biases, that's not twisting anything it's just how people are.

You demonstrated nothing here, i am afraid.
If something is an issue for FD, and i just put it
as that without weighing any significance to it,
how can i be biased?

It's just people choosing not to play a video game, it's not a big deal and I'm not bothered by it I feel no need to "investigate".

FD corrects you here: It is a cheat. Need a source for that?


It does not seem we two will come to a useful and fruitful basis of discussion,
so let us end that exchange here.


Topic:
Has any data of other endeavours from other sources investigating this topic
come up?

 

[Jimbodiah]

Remove Open from the game, problem solved. Nothing to do in Open but gank other players anyway. Make CQC the new Open and allow your game ships in there so the pvp gankers can go at it there.

 

[Cageman]

Remove Open from the game, problem solved. Nothing to do in Open but gank other players anyway. Make CQC the new Open and allow your game ships in there so the pvp gankers can go at it there.

Yep. It would remove a lot of the toxic from the community.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Remove Open from the game, problem solved. Nothing to do in Open but gank other players anyway...

Rubbish

 

[jasonbarron]

Remove Open from the game, problem solved. Nothing to do in Open but gank other players anyway. Make CQC the new Open and allow your game ships in there so the pvp gankers can go at it there.

Yep. It would remove a lot of the toxic from the community.

Yes, giving ED a lobotomy would totally fix everything.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Your are comparing and making confusions between different things that are not linked.

C&P is about implementing better consequences (without any rewards yet) for criminal activities. It is not aimed at stoping criminal activities (like sandro said during the stream).

Just like with the PF bounties, folks are convinced that the rest of C&P is going to magically erase PvP encounters from the game.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Rubbish

Yeah, it makes me wonder if it is a joke.

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

Remove Open from the game, problem solved. Nothing to do in Open but gank other players anyway. Make CQC the new Open and allow your game ships in there so the pvp gankers can go at it there.

Speaking as a strictly PvE-style player...no. There's bad actors in every social venue, and the solution is not to just toss the venue out in the trash.

Once again, I don't see why people take PvP encounters so personally when the NPCs do the same thing for the same range of justifications or lack thereof.

And I know they didn't announce anything about it for Beyond, but since they also said they didn't have time to tell us about everything that's coming...it'd be epic if one of the unannounced features in Beyond somewhere was the solution to this matter. If it was, FDev would have every right to be extremely smug about it once it went live.

 

[jasonbarron]

Once again, I don't see why people take PvP encounters so personally when the NPCs do the same thing for the same range of justifications or lack thereof.

Because these NPC's can be clogged on without the hassle of the PvP community pointing it out all the time. Just a thought.

 

[Martian Successor]

Remove Open from the game, problem solved. Nothing to do in Open but gank other players anyway. Make CQC the new Open and allow your game ships in there so the pvp gankers can go at it there.

Nice fake news about Open there Mr. Trump.

Yep. It would remove a lot of the toxic from the community.

The level of irony with this statement is off the charts. You come in out of nowhere to do a drive by toxic post and you don't even see how that makes you the exact toxic presence you apparently wish to remove from the community.

Priceless duo these two

 

[Gunnet]

Once again, I don't see why people take PvP encounters so personally when the NPCs do the same thing for the same range of justifications or lack thereof.

You came a hair's breadth from answering your own question there. People don't take interactions with NPCs personally because NPCs aren't people. An NPC is just a bit of code, it doesn't (and can't) act with malice; it isn't seeking to receive pleasure through inflicting discomfort. A griefer on the other hand is a real human being seeking to ruin the experiences of others.

It's the difference between a tree dropping a pine cone on your head and somebody throwing a pine cone at your head. Intent is everything.

 

[Lucifera Danzig]

You came a hair's breadth from answering your own question there. People don't take interactions with NPCs personally because NPCs aren't people. An NPC is just a bit of code, it doesn't (and can't) act with malice; it isn't seeking to receive pleasure through inflicting discomfort. A griefer on the other hand is a real human being seeking to ruin the experiences of others.

It's the difference between a tree dropping a pine cone on your head and somebody throwing a pine cone at your head. Intent is everything.

If we're going to go down that rabbit hole, it's not really a pilot in space in a space ship shooting lasers at them in RL either. But more importantly shooting at another player is not "griefing," it's intentional gameplay facets. As I'd stated earlier, when Braben started talking about the start of C & P coming into the game, he said he doesn't want to stop people from being "naughty" (shooting at other players) but does want to have applicable consequences for doing so.

EDIT: And here's FDev at Lavecon 2017, where you hear them say exactly this very thing:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/154801413?t=00h18m00s

 

[Gunnet]

If we're going to go down that rabbit hole, it's not really a pilot in space in a space ship shooting lasers at them in RL either. But more importantly shooting at another player is not "griefing," it's intentional gameplay facets. As I'd stated earlier, when Braben started talking about the start of C & P coming into the game, he said he doesn't want to stop people from being "naughty" (shooting at other players) but does want to have applicable consequences for doing so.

I was just explaining why people take anti-social behaviour from a human personally while remaining apathetic towards NPCs, even though they may do superficially similar things. The answer is the answer no matter what Frontier intends.

Shooting other players has a place in the game, but griefing doesn't. My signature has a link to a video of David Braben saying essentially that.

 

[JosiahD]

Your are comparing and making confusions between different things that are not linked.

Everything is linked when it comes to cause and effect. I'm not confused at all, but I also recognise that griefing/ganking is one of the causal reasons behind why some people combat log. C&P that has an impact on the amount of griefing/ganking should have a flow-on effect on combat logging where those motivations are involved.

C&P is about implementing better consequences (without any rewards yet) for criminal activities. It is not aimed at stoping criminal activities (like sandro said during the stream).

Correct. But you have to remember that combat logging is one of the mechanisms used by players to avoid the effects of those criminal activities - largely because all the cost is currently borne by the victim and almost none by the perpetrator. Holding criminals accountable for their actions, with appropriate consequences is a key part of compensating the victim (ie the knowledge that there's a resultant impact on the criminal arising from the criminal activity such as murder.

Ganking is part of the PvP activity (PvP functionality is non optional in multiplayers mode) and there is nothing wrong with it.

Ganking goes against a sense of fair play, a fair fight. Now, in a cutthroat galaxy one must of course expect that there's always a bigger fish and be prepared for that when going into open. Consequently anyone intending to combat log in such situations should be playing in a different mode of course.

Griefing correspond to a few specific situations according to game rules and mechanics.

Nonetheless, both griefing and ganking are significant motivators behind combat logging. Not the sole motivators, to be sure, but motivators all the same. Reduce such activities through the C&P and Karma changes and there should be a flow on effect on combat logging (there'll always be combat loggers though, just as there'll always be other cheaters; just as there will always be those who will grief and gank).

Combat logging is a cheat and there is only one right way to deal with it : a fix that makes it impossible to use. But i hear you and Karma might be a good start.

I agree that prevention is better than cure. Not sure how one can actually prevent it from occurring though. Dealing with the various motivators for combat logging though should reduce it - and that includes dealing with griefing/ganking, whether people like it or not.

Finally our investigation were about Frontirer's Actions on combat logging not an investigation regarding combat logging impact (which like i said is not needed because it is a factual approach). Words are important.

I disagree (not with the last 3 words mind you). The OP (and the previous iteration) includes a section on why combat logging is bad for the game - ergo the 'investigation' has indeed at least considered/examined the impact of combat logging as part of the 'investigation', at least from a PvP perspective. If it is also such an issue in PvE, as this thread has also delved into since the OP, why did it not also examine that side? Of course, SDC being a PvP-focused group, it is to be expected that any 'investigation' would focus on PvP. But if the 'investigation' sets out to be the definitive view on Frontier's actions or inaction in regard to combat logging (and the tone of the OP reads like that to me), then it needed to look at the issue as a whole, not simply focus on PvP considerations.

 

[Stigbob]

Got any source on the announcement of the fix for clogging?

Yep, read up on the proposed C&P improvements and Karma, clogging is planned to be dealt with via negative Karma.

You demonstrated nothing here, i am afraid.
If something is an issue for FD, and i just put it
as that without weighing any significance to it,
how can i be biased?

Because your bias is that it's a big deal and everyone should think so, whereas mine is that it isn't. Primarily because clogging is just a lazy high wake, the best case you can expect is forcing cloggers to high wake or menu log. The deeper problem of some people choose not to fight to the death (if you think that's an issue) will still remain.

FD corrects you here: It is a cheat. Need a source for that?

Not really, everyone agrees it's a cheat. This has been mentioned lots of times, I don't understand why you think repeatedly telling someone (me) that it's a cheat is relevant or important, when every time you do it I agree with you.

It does not seem we two will come to a useful and fruitful basis of discussion,
so let us end that exchange here.

Your choice.

Topic:
Has any data of other endeavours from other sources investigating this topic
come up?

Probably not, the number of people willing to expend time and effort on something so trivial isn't very high.