Put in an actual system that penalizes psychopaths for murder. Maybe you'll see less combat logging.
An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging
- Thread starter ryan_m
- Start date
True - but the fact remains that video evidence of behaviours in Elite mean very little when it comes to disconnections etc. It can mean an awful lot when it comes to foul language / harassment / abuse etc, or show players using obvious hacks - but it doesn't and cannot show the current network state or prove who logged who. Even a PiP showing live netlog and routing tables wouldn't conclusively prove that.
Quite and you're 100% correct, but that's not the mindset of most of the forum active PvE players playing Elite Dangerous, they have the mindset of any kind of non consensual PvP being griefing. This mindset is used to justify the use of an exploit to avoid destruction. It really does need stamping on once and for all. I have no idea how or even if FD will do it, but they need to make this a priority because right now, I believe that division in this community is poison for the game.
I see here you are attacking all people who say grieving exists by calling them entitled brats and then making a false equivalency fallacy by suggesting they should simply avoid Open (because being forced into solo or group thanks to your griefing isn't griefing according to your circular logic). So, adhoms, strawmans, circular logic, hypocrisy. What a mess!
Edit: You should run for politics.
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Whatever.
Until you can stop bullcrap like folk ramming people inside stations, a combat log is a legitimate counter to those determined to exploit the system.
I don't agree with the overall tone of this post. It smacks of a certain EvE/WoW-legacy PvP mentality I have come to loath.
While some of what is said is at least in part truth, IME it shows little understanding of the underlying complaints some people have about certain behaviours in Open (and have been perpetrated through infiltration of certain groups based on what I have heard).
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It would be nice to know what FD officially thinks is "griefing" or other unwanted and not allowed activity. It might help a lot if FD would communicate such things in a way that is easily viewable and understandable by all players.
It's a bit strange that the community manager can't give an official definition of what FD considers griefing.
I bet the majority (or at least a lot) of players don't even know what combat logging is and that it's not allowed. The endless discussions about "griefing" is the result of almost complete silence about that topic from FD.
That PvP side of you must be dying ever since you had to manage this forum, I can't imagine the horror.
Even if you're right, and I'm not saying you are (I've only read the last two pages of this thread), your posts are awfully condescending. You won't get anywhere that way.
Does anybody really believe that, though? That a true crime and punishment system would somehow encourage CLers to NOT pull the plug whenever threatened with the rebuy screen? I just don't think so--CLers aren't going to stop pulling the plug until Fdev implements a punishment system for them. The onus isn't on the "bad guys" as the bulk of this forum seems to think. It's on the cheaters.
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Even if the outcome was different and the ban was implemented, it doesn't seem like much of a deterrent. Personally, I stay in Solo/Groups these days, but if I was playing in Open I would rather log if someone was ruining my experience despite if it is within the game rules or not. If the person attacking isn't giving you any respect why should you give any as the victim. I play to be entertained not to be bullied by other players.
Perhaps if you have found cheating your account should be wiped or access to servers locked out for a period/permanently. Dunno no scenario is ideal until there is a system solution in game to address. I thought EVE's solution was decent mind you where your ship would remain for 30-60secs or whatever time frame after you log out.. so if you were trying to bypass being blown up it would not work.
Perhaps if you have found cheating your account should be wiped or access to servers locked out for a period/permanently. Dunno no scenario is ideal until there is a system solution in game to address. I thought EVE's solution was decent mind you where your ship would remain for 30-60secs or whatever time frame after you log out.. so if you were trying to bypass being blown up it would not work.
Explain?
How if you pull the plug on your computer can you still kill me? Surely you get black "bad connection" error and therefore can't kill me in the cicumstances you state. I get to kill you for free coz your still there on my computer which is still plugged in.
In my opinion in-game punishment is not a solution to a problem that is motivated by out of game reasons.
The only solution - in my opinion - against combat logging are out of game punishments (warning, serious warning, shadow ban, longer shadow ban … things like that).
Same for "griefing" - what ever FD decides what it is, if they decide anything - I'm losing my faith in that matter.
As I've said many times now, the forum meme of the logger as a desperate innocent, taking the only measure available to him in the face of cruel PvP violence has become so entrenched that it is almost impossible to shake.
But, I'll try once again:
- The most prolific loggers in this game (the ones who are known to have logged not once in a chance encounter, but systematically) are slaughterers of new players in the Eravate region
- I have never attacked anyone who was not Wanted or a Powerplay enemy, always with explanatory comms, yet I have seen my share of logging
- It is well established, admitted, and even commented on by FDev that much logging happens in Solo, hence has nothing to do with PvP aggression at all
Basically it is just institutionalised, selfish cheating and those that defend it are unintentionally defending the very worst elements of this game. The very people (at least in the case of the seal-clubbers) that they claim to despise the most.
And yet the unstoppable forum meme continues ... the logger is innocent ... the logger is good ... the logger is kind ...
I repeat: there are loggers who have boasted of several thousand player kills, who I have seen log, who I have seen talking about logging in local chat, who are still in this game.
And yet the forum continues ... the logger is innocent ... the logger is nice ...
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If you're talking about the infiltration of Mobius (a group I used to fly in from time to time) then I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I don't recall seeing anything in the way of support for those actions outside of the group who orchestrated it. Most people agreed that it was in very poor taste.
The EvE/WoW legacy PvP mentality to which you refer is built upon certain truths about video games in which players are able to attack and kill/destroy each other. Those truths are that, in the case of ED, if you click on Open Play you're basically making yourself a target for any commander that feels like turning your ship into scrap metal. If this is unacceptable to you, play solo or join/form a private group. I don't say that to try and rile you or insult you, I'm offering it as a valid and approved mechanism for avoiding unwanted conflict. People kill each other in PvP enabled games. That's just how it is. Open Play is PvP enabled. Being attacked and possibly destroyed is simply a part of playing in Open.
The other simple yet seemingly inconvenient truth that many PvE focussed players choose to ignore is that Combat Logging is against the ToS and has been categorically classified as an exploit by Frontier Developments. That's not up for debate. If you combat log, you're breaking the ToS and you should be penalised. That's not my opinion, that's Frontier Developments official stance on the matter.
I don't agree it's 100% correct.
For me flying into newbie zones to kill new players is griefing.
Flying over a bunch of landed explorers in SRVs just having fun actually socialising in game for once, and taking them out while they're prone is griefing.
Killing prone explores coming back to the bubble with months worth of data is griefing.
Heading into a private PvE group to kill players is griefing.
I am not really saying griefing should be banned or anything, I'm saying griefing is the action of <snip>s. Of course no-one in this thread would ever grief anybody would they.
I think the definition of griefing requires a notion of motivation, and that means we come right back to the game providing no context for players attacking players.
When you are killed there is no in-game reason for it, nothing. Most of the time the motivation is that they knew they either outnumbered you or you didn't stand a chance. This is what players see.
Yes we can argue over semantics, over some strict or personal definition of griefing, but while the above is true players will see no other motivation beyong the griefing one, and as a result the player reaction will reflect that.
Redefining definitions solves nothing besides allowing folk to feel smug. Ultimately the solution has to be in game, and no that doesn't mean sticking a dictionary in the cockpit!
I'd also mention Engineers, I mean I like Engineers but you have this huge balance discrepency where PvPers rush the best mods to be competitive ASAP, All the best stuff now!!! PvE tend to stroll along in their own time enjoying the content bit by bit, no rush. Until at which point they are jumped by an FdL massively tuned for the sole purpose of killing a player in the absolute quickest time possible, there are plenty of encounters where the player just does not stand a chance at all.
There simply has to be some balance, perception of motivation, some feeling of fairness, and a feeling that there are consequences to negative actions.
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Oh my goodness!
So all those posters on Reddit and YouTube explicitly demonstrating how to do exploits got penalized/warned/banned?
And never once did they complain about getting caught...
Sure, if you say so...